[Discussion] - Hardcore modes

[Stormweaver]

This is *not* a topic for demanding/recommending the implementation of features; simply a discussion that, with some time, may come up with a few ideas that could be suggested. As such it is technically breaking sub-forum rules; Since there is no suggestion a more descriptive title is impossible, and for the same reason the 'One suggestion per thread' rule doesn't really...work. If a moderator feels this thread just doesn't belong then you'll do with it what you will I suppose...but anyway, here's what I wanted to discuss.

A recent update saw the implementation of 'Hardcore bucket mode'; a simple nerf to vMC behaviour that changes the game in a somewhat drastic way. And the interesting thing is, even though it technically places a limit on what a player can do, it's seemingly gotten a good response. Which is more or less what this is about. With the official release of minecraft 1.0 a whole slew of gameplay has been added over the 1.8 version, and I want to discuss ways of making it harder. In ways that fit the minecraft spirit of course.

So the purpose of this thread (to begin with) is to get together a list of vMC features that could be made more hardcore, including any self-imposed limitations you've ever used to make the game more interesting. And once we've gotten a few, to discuss those aspects of vMC and find out what we want to make challenging about them. Which is what you guys are for. Now for some general guidelines designed to stop the thread from devolving into chaos/crossing the line into a suggestions thread.
- DO NOT discuss methods for making things hardcore from the word go. Bring up the aspects of vMC that you think could be made hardcore, and wait till a good number of people have shared their opinions on that feature first.
- DO comment on the aspects of vMC other posters bring up; no-one's ideas are any better than anyone else's, and you should always assume everyone else is better than you are. Unless you're FC. In that case your thoughts are more important than everyone else's.
- DO NOT propose ideas that add functionality. As much fun as tilled earth growing weeds may sound, it's complicated and is more of a feature suggestion than it should be. Remember how simple hardcore bucket is? Keep it at that level.
- DO criticise where needed, if you think someone's hardcore proposal is too complicated or would kill an important of vMC gameplay, say so. If you just don't like an idea, say so but leave it at that.
- DO NOT propose nerfs to non-vMC gameplay; I shouldn't need to explain this one.
- DO make sure any proposals are ones that would infuence a player playing vMC; no changing vanilla systems that are only important because of btw.

Anyway, just before I start things off I'd like us to avoid any talk of hardcore food/hunger and hardcore sheep. The former is an aspect of vMC that FC's mentioned thinking about a few times, and the latter something he mentioned directly. No need to waste time talking about things potentially in the works where we can help it, right?
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I'm going to take the opportunity to go with the obvious one: Breeding. Currently the breeding system feels too easy; get two animals, toss them a few of one of the easiest things to farm in vMC, wait a while and then come back with an axe and some more wheat to keep up the numbers. As such, I think (the well-named) hardcore breeding should be up for discussion later on.

Just start simple, lets get a few different things together and, if we're still here in a few days, we can move on from there.

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CURRENT TOPICS (WIP)
- Hardcore breeding (wheat is too simple/abundant)
- Hardcore farming (bonemeal is too powerful)
- Hardcore biomes (some environments should be harsher than others)
- Hardcore wood (Because...punching trees says it all)
- Hardcore swimming (because swimming is just f'ing weird)
- Hardcore Lighting/Torches (infinite burning sticks?)

[FlowerChild]

As I've already stated, I'm considering "Hardcore Sheep" mode.

Those sexy sexy sheep and their wily ways...mmmmmmmm...

EDIT: I appreciate the "Hardcore Breeding" aspect too. Good one :)

[Stormweaver]

As I've already stated, I'm considering "Hardcore Sheep" mode.

Those sexy sexy sheep and their wily ways...mmmmmmmm...

EDIT: I appreciate the "Hardcore Breeding" aspect too. Good one :)

and hardcore sheep. The former is an aspect of vMC that FC's mentioned thinking about a few times, and the latter something he mentioned directly. No need to waste time talking about things potentially in the works where we can help it, right?

Way ahead of you :p I figured it'd be an interesting idea to get a think tank to see what people want made harder and get the pros and cons of each aspect put together in advance - especially identifying the details that people dislike about how some systems are currently. Much better than ideas brought by a single person's impressions of a system anyways, since we all see things from different angles.

[FlowerChild]

Way ahead of you :p

Oops...sorry dude. I just skimmed the topic before replying.

Regardless, it gave me an opportunity to wax poetic about sheep, which is always a good thing.

[Itamarcu]

An ability for zombies to destroy windows and doors over time :P
Although it is not very connected to the spirit of the mod.

[Zhil]

The obvious one? Hardcore farm mode, bonemeal not acting as fertilizer

An ability for zombies to destroy windows and doors over time :P
Although it is not very connected to the spirit of the mod.

Without proper pathfinding, that'd end up in random door grief, comparable to endermen

[DaveYanakov]

Hardcore deserts. You would take (slow) sun damage during the day while in a desert biome, forcing you to travel across them at night or in short hops across the narrow bits. For those spawning in deserts it would create the minor hassle of having to make a shade pillar from six sand before looking around for an escape route.

Hardcore cold. Snow/Tundra/Taiga etc biomes could pose a similar risk at night, requiring you to remain within a certain radius of a running furnace (or open fire). This would require a furnace tweak to allow you to burn fuel without having something in the top slot. Or, come to think on it, allow the furnace to operate on something that doesn't produce anythink in the top slot. Like trying to cook a twig or a snowball would make the furnace loop through its fuel without outputting anything. Or outputting ashes from the fuel... Damnit! Now I'm wondering why furnaces burn so cleanly! Next I'll be making a suggestion that they should produce a byproduct when using non-lava fuels.

[Stormweaver]

Hardcore deserts. -snip-
Hardcore cold. -snip-

ehe...so that's why I put the guidelines in the op! I knew I had a reason :p Not that I'm dismissing your post - it's just a bit early in the thread's development. Better to start with a view on what needs to change before we start on ideas on how to change it, if you catch my drift.

The more extreme biomes are definately worth discussing imo though. Gonna update the OP with our (currently short) list.

[Dirdle]

- hardcore breeding (wheat is too simple)

Do we think the problem is more with the simplicity, or is it just that wheat is very abundant? In the latter case, it might be possible that making farming harder will solve this problem as well.

[jorgebonafe]

In two words... Punching trees. There's got to be a way around that... If not to make getting wood a little more challenging, simply because its sooo unrealistic. I know this is a game, a different world, and not supposed to be totally realistic, but really.... punching trees?

[Stormweaver]

- hardcore breeding (wheat is too simple)

Do we think the problem is more with the simplicity, or is it just that wheat is very abundant? In the latter case, it might be possible that making farming harder will solve this problem as well.

That's true; though even if wheat were harder to get it's still the same process, which I feel to be a bit lacking.

Adding hardcore wood to the list though. Could be an interesting one :p

[M!C]

Just some ideas, take what you like throw the rest away.

1.hardcore water (too general as a name but I don't have a better one) - Swimming kilometers on end without any consequences except getting hungry? This could add hypothermia and make boats a necessity.

2.hardcore lava - Make lava more dangerous and with that handling it more difficult (setting up cobble generators etc.). Touching lava causes instant death, being near it (adjacent blocks) damages you.

3.hardcore machinery - I have seen DaveYanakov mentioning this. Redstone and mechanical power damage the player forcing him to shut down his machinery before working on it. Imo this should include damage for touching active parts as well as breaking them.

[ThatOneDude]

Just one quick idea-

Hardcore flowers :D
Or like hardcore nature....
You can only pick up flowers with shears
Kinda like how you only pick up grass and leaves with shears

[Itamarcu]

Suggestion for hardcore wood:
1. you can't punch wood to get it
2. you can craft saplings to sticks
3. you can craft a small saw, which is a bit faster than wood but slower than stone, using flint and a stick. This encourages the player to find some gravel.

[Mac]

There is one thing that came to my mind.

Hardcore crafting(forging):
In which one would only be able to make metal-tools from heated bars from the furnace.
Freshly smelted bars from ores would be hot and cool down over time.
So that when put in storage for later use they would have to be reheated again.

Might be be impossible, but it's the thought that counts.

[FlowerChild]

Oh wow. I must admit, this thread has surprised me. These are probably some of the best ideas I've seen in a long time.

Keep it going guys, I like this a lot.

[Stormweaver]

Huh, if hypothetically I was thinking about a small-scale social experiment to determine the reaction to an unfamilar set of rules in an enviroment when I made the OP, I think the results are conclusive. For the sake of my sanity, I may well spoiler everything but the guidelines, and bold them. and allcaps somewhere. Or...ugh, I dunno. Can't even be arsed saying this bit out loud.
Hardcore swimming seems a safe bet. Lava's already bloody dangerous imo, but if other people want to discuss it later say so, I'll add it too. Machinery...there's no reason to build redstone out in the open in vMC anyways, so it feels a little too close to BTW balance than I'm comfortable with. Flowers and crafting...I...I...dunno? If more people like them it'll go up top with the others >.<

[CreeperCommando]

Very much in line with what jorgebonafe said, a better 'tech-progress' of the tools. of 20 (NOT 25 >:( ) different vanilla tools I usually use 10 of them where one is used no more than three times (guess which one ;) )
And punching trees.... when I first heard about MC and it being a survivalgame, I'd never thought they meant Chuck Norris survival.... On another note, non -swimmable waterfalls?
IMO things that returns the 'first night' feeling is my cup of tea :)

[jorgebonafe]

I dunno about flowers... but the tool craftting with heated metals I love! I guess it wouldn't be needed for wooden tools, and not sure how to apply that to diamond tools, but I think this has a lot of potential.

[FlowerChild]

Suggestion for hardcore wood:
1. you can't punch wood to get it
2. you can craft saplings to sticks
3. you can craft a small saw, which is a bit faster than wood but slower than stone, using flint and a stick. This encourages the player to find some gravel.

I like this, but I think the above could easily be refined into:

-Punched leaves occasionally drop sticks.
-You can craft your first axe (maybe other tools as well...eliminating the wood tools) out of flint and sticks.

[CreeperCommando]

Suggestion for hardcore wood:
1. you can't punch wood to get it
2. you can craft saplings to sticks
3. you can craft a small saw, which is a bit faster than wood but slower than stone, using flint and a stick. This encourages the player to find some gravel.

I like this, but I think the above could easily be refined into:

-Punched leaves occasionally drop sticks.
-You can craft your first axe (maybe other tools as well...eliminating the wood tools) out of flint and sticks.

Could I just add that there could be some sort of natural delay between wood/flint tools and the stone tools? I've been longing since forever for an 'age of survival' in the game.

[FlowerChild]

Actually, just realized you could trim it down further to:

-You can't punch trees.
-A piece of flint can be used as an axe.

End of story.

[jorgebonafe]

Could I just add that there could be some sort of natural delay between wood/flint tools and the stone tools? I've been longing since forever for an 'age of survival' in the game.

That's interesting. Perhaps needing flint tools to be able to break stone, and requiring some kind of specific process to get flint, instead of just breaking gravel and hoping you get lucky.

[Itamarcu]

Actually, just realized you could trim it down further to:

-You can't punch trees.
-A piece of flint can be used as an axe.

End of story.

Check out what I found:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD9g2B7M ... r_embedded#![/youtube]

This man progresses from a small rock to a stone axe. actually it turns out wood axes aren't really needed.

[Shengji]

I'm actually developing a mod which amongst a lot of other ideas to slow down the very early game replaces wooden tools with flint versions, and eliminates punching hard materials, either to destroy or get blocks.

One consideration I found very important was to give almost guaranteed flint from gravel because it can be surprisingly frustrating! (Though it should be noted that flint is a massively important resource in my mod) I slowed down how quickly you can break gravel with your hand (and am still testing by how long) but it gives flint 100% of the time. Other tools act as normal and there is a new tool for my Neolithic Age (Which replaces the wooden sword) which acts as a weapon and a digging tool - basically a sharpened stick - this can clear gravel fast but doesn't create a drop.

Note, this is not a suggestion, this works well in my mod, but I am not developing mine to integrate necessarily with BTW

On the subject of the discussion, torches are ripe territory for a hardcore mode. Some of my most memorable worlds came from the time before Finite water became desperately incompatible with BTW - the rain in Finite water destroys torches which led to a way of building which not only had to take into account drainage and water flow but also weather proofing your light sources. I found it balanced the torch better into the game and stopped it being, in my opinion so over powered - again this is not a direct suggestion, just a conversation starter, once we've finished with punching wood!