An alternative to signs in drop-traps

[FlowerChild]

Just wanted to toss another idea out there for discussion.

I'm personally uncomfortable using signs in drop-traps due to it feeling like a very glitchy behavior. It's a trick I never personally use as a result.

I was wondering if you guys had some ideas for a new block that would replicate the same behavior (mobs think its solid-ground, but fall-through it), but would seem a little more reasonable.

Some form of trap-door? A placeable form of the wicker item?

[Awfulcopter]

Just wanted to toss another idea out there for discussion.

I'm personally uncomfortable using signs in drop-traps due to it feeling like a very glitchy behavior. It's a trick I never personally use as a result.

I was wondering if you guys had some ideas for a new block that would replicate the same behavior (mobs think its solid-ground, but fall-through it), but would seem a little more reasonable.

Some form of trap-door? A placeable form of the wicker item?

Well, When I think of pit fall traps, I always think of the movies where people put a few flimsy sticks over a hole, and then cover that with palm leaves or grass.

I think that placeable wicker would be a nice nod to that.

[jorgebonafe]

I find the false trapdoor idea interesting... It opens when you walk over it. It would be useful too in making traps on smp, if they look like a regular trap door.

[FlowerChild]

Well, When I think of pit fall traps, I always think of the movies where people put a few flimsy sticks over a hole, and then cover that with palm leaves or grass.

I think that placeable wicker would be a nice nod to that.

Well, the problem I see with that is that you would expect it to be single use. To effectively replace signs, you'd need something like a spring-loaded trap door.

Some other design considerations:

-I'd like this to block to be stackable, to save on the trouble associated with having to use a large number of unstackable items when building a mob trap (which is the case with signs).

-These need to be placeable over empty space (like signs), so if you have a 3-wide drop trap, the middle block would be free-standing.

It's not necessarily obvious as to how to fulfill the above requirements while still looking and feeling reasonable.

Going to move this over to the suggestions sub-forum where I had originally intended it to go.

[Brethern]

A wheat weave would be a good idea. it would be strong enough to support debris but an animal would fall through. it also wouldn't be single use. These are mobs we are talking about.

[FlowerChild]

I find the false trapdoor idea interesting... It opens when you walk over it. It would be useful too in making traps on smp, if they look like a regular trap door.

Well, I don't want to make these too easy to disguise either, as that would effectively replace the construction of more complex traps involving circuitry to fool other players.

Personally, I think they should stand out and be recognizable for what they are to any sentient individual for that reason.

[FlowerChild]

A wheat weave would be a good idea. it would be strong enough to support debris but an animal would fall through. it also wouldn't be single use. These are mobs we are talking about.

I wouldn't want it to support anything at all actually. That would complicate the code much more than it needs to be, and reduce its effectiveness in mob-traps since it would potentially prevent some drops from passing through.

I'd like to stick to the idea of it being something that appears to be there visually, but which has no collisions associated with it. Really, a straight out replacement for signs in that role, without nerfing that behavior in any way.

[Awfulcopter]

It would be useful if whatever the solution was could be made to open under the wieght of an adult animal, but not a baby. Or under the weight of a cow, but not a chicken. If the solution is something like a spring loaded door, it makes sense to me that I should be able to choose a spring strong enough to support a chicken, but not a cow.

Edit: Just saw your point about wanting to keep the code simple by not having it support anything. That would invalidate this suggestion.

[jorgebonafe]

Hum.... Ok, how about a spring loaded trap door that open in the middle? That way, you'd have two half block doors, and the hinges on opposite sides. You can't put them floating, but you can put them next to another trap door. So, even when the middle trap door is open, it wont look like its floating, because it will be connected to the trapdoor next to it by both hinges.

[Brethern]

A wheat weave would be a good idea. it would be strong enough to support debris but an animal would fall through. it also wouldn't be single use. These are mobs we are talking about.

I wouldn't want it to support anything at all actually. That would complicate the code much more than it needs to be, and reduce its effectiveness in mob-traps since it would potentially prevent some drops from passing through.

I'd like to stick to the idea of it being something that appears to be there visually, but which has no collisions associated with it. Really, a straight out replacement for signs in that role, without nerfing that behavior in any way.

Sorry that support debris part was coming frommy trapping experience so you can disregard that part.

[FlowerChild]

It would be useful if whatever the solution was could be made to open under the wieght of an adult animal, but not a baby. Or under the weight of a cow, but not a chicken. If the solution is something like a spring loaded door, it makes sense to me that I should be able to choose a spring strong enough to support a chicken, but not a cow.

Edit: Just saw your point about wanting to keep the code simple by not having it support anything. That would invalidate this suggestion.

Yeah, and I also think separating mobs by "weight" is a bit of a slippery slope. A baby cow wouldn't open it but an adult chicken would?

[Awfulcopter]

Well, vines have the 'appear there, but no collisions' behavior. Maybe they could be made placeable horizontally, and mobs could be changed to be fooled?

[Ethazeriel]

Well, vines have the 'appear there, but no collisions' behavior. Maybe they could be made placeable horizontally, and mobs could be changed to be fooled?

this could work, except the growing down behavior of vines would get pretty annoying at times. Just using something like a wicker/wheat cover seems to be one of the best/simplest solutions.

[FlowerChild]

Well, vines have the 'appear there, but no collisions' behavior. Maybe they could be made placeable horizontally, and mobs could be changed to be fooled?

Hmmm...interesting idea. You'd expect the vines to naturally spread out over a surface, but bend out of the way to let things through.

I doubt I could modify the vine code itself to do this, because I suspect their data is already occupied by all the various orientations they already have (note that vines can occupy multiple sides of a block in which they're present), but I like the idea of rigging up a separate block made out of vines to fill this role.

It would even give a purpose to farming them, which is currently lacking from the game.

I like it man. Nice one :)

[Awfulcopter]

It would be useful if whatever the solution was could be made to open under the wieght of an adult animal, but not a baby. Or under the weight of a cow, but not a chicken. If the solution is something like a spring loaded door, it makes sense to me that I should be able to choose a spring strong enough to support a chicken, but not a cow.

Edit: Just saw your point about wanting to keep the code simple by not having it support anything. That would invalidate this suggestion.

Yeah, and I also think separating mobs by "weight" is a bit of a slippery slope. A baby cow wouldn't open it but an adult chicken would?

*Nod*

I really like the collection of hopper filters, and the way it becomes possible to separate out almost everything by using different combinations. I was imagining some similar system for sorting mobs. But you are right that there are some real problems with it not being logical from a real world perspective. Also, a "this is the adult cow door" system might make it too simple to be interesting.

[FlowerChild]

this could work, except the growing down behavior of vines would get pretty annoying at times. Just using something like a wicker/wheat cover seems to be one of the best/simplest solutions.

Yeah, I wouldn't have them grow either. What I'm thinking now is a craftable block made out of vines.

[Elensaar]

A spring loaded trap door seems nicely mechanical, though it might look weird in a 3x3 configuration, depending on how it's done.

Another solution, that seems to me like it could match the "soul-abusing" part of the mod, could be some sort of "illusion" block. Some way of forcing the trapped souls of the dead to fool mobs into thinking an area is solid ground. This could also be made to look blatantly obvious to players, so it wouldn't invalidate more complex traps for SMP.

[Awfulcopter]

Now I'm wondering if I'll be able to place such a block vertically, and if it will replace obsidian pressure plate doors?

Edit: after some some basic thinking it is the opposite of an obsidian door: animals can pass through.

[FlowerChild]

A spring loaded trap door seems nicely mechanical, though it might look weird in a 3x3 configuration, depending on how it's done.

Another solution, that seems to me like it could match the "soul-abusing" part of the mod, could be some sort of "illusion" block. Some way of forcing the trapped souls of the dead to fool mobs into thinking an area is solid ground. This could also be made to look blatantly obvious to players, so it wouldn't invalidate more complex traps for SMP.

That's not bad either actually. I'd probably lean more towards the vines though given how high-tech the whole soul thing is within the mod, how difficult that resource is to produce, and given that if a simple mundane solution is possible it seems a bit weird for Steve to be going the uber-magic route :)

I'm also very fond of giving a purpose to vine farming since it has a rather unique growth mechanism and thus represents its own form of automation challenge (even if not a particularly difficult one).

[Zhil]

Can I combine two of these?

I love the idea of the nod to cartoons where they put leaves over a pit and someone falling in. The vine trap idea is brilliant. So yeah, disguising a pit with vines sounds like tons of fun :)

In terms of a hardcore suggestion, just remove collision from leaves. That'd be fun :D

[Awfulcopter]

In the real world, people would often use fear to drive animals over a cliff, to be processed.

http://www.head-smashed-in.com/

It is likely too difficult a change in mechanics for such a simple problem. But there could be many uses for a block that would scare passive and aggressive animals away.

[Zhil]

Oooh, scarecrows. I love that idea too.

[Elensaar]

That's not bad either actually. I'd probably lean more towards the vines though given how high-tech the whole soul thing is within the mod, how difficult that resource is to produce, and given that if a simple mundane solution is possible it seems a bit weird for Steve to be going the uber-magic route :)

I'm also very fond of giving a purpose to vine farming since it has a rather unique growth mechanism and thus represents its own form of automation challenge (even if not a particularly difficult one).

Yeah, the vine thing appeared as I was writing, and I agree that it seems more logical. There's no need to enslave souls if you can just use vines, and having a purpose to farm them is cool. :)

Besides, I have to second the love for old cartoons and the "bunch of leaves over a pit" trap :)

[MoRmEnGiL]

The vines idea is just perfect I think. I would doubt this particular "feature" will be fixed any time soon.. But it don't, because with them going out of the way to kill mob traps,hmm. I'm thinking it is prudent to have something more reliable.

[misterwuggles]

Good gosh am I all for this. I have always hated the idea of signs and pressure plates in mob traps and water manipulation in general. I understand it and I can live with it and I know this won't completely replace the behavior, but I still dislike it.

A block made from soul sand or something produced with/from soul sand could also make sense given that things sink into it to a certain extent. If you wanted to get crazy and attack two things at once, you could have it pull out a portion of their souls as they pass through it to be used with XP automation, but as neat as that seems in my head it's probably a bit too much.

I like the vine idea I think. Simple and provides a practical reason to cover your world in vines.