Considering dropping Forge

[CovertJaguar]

Hey man,

Just registering to actually say I totally understand the context and respect whatever outcome of your decision might be. I would be interested in knowing how much this feeling towards the Forge is shared, and what can be done about it. I trust that working on a common platform is the way to go, and if the Forge is not the proper platform, alternative ideas would be great.

Cheers,

SpaceToad

My personal biggest gripe is the lack of a place to properly discuss possible hooks. The MC Forum thread is drowning in random users looking for support and as such doesnt get read. I once asked if there was a better place to discuss Forge, and was told IRC or private messages were the only options. Now in my personal opinion IRC is far too random and much too transient to be any better than the MC Forum thread. And PMs suffer from a lack of perspective from other modders. So if Forge is supposed to be a sharing of common ideas and solutions, there is no place to do so. An official forum or some kind of suggestion ticket system (with public discussion) would be a great step in the right direction and would hopefully help open up the development process.

[Battosay]

Glad to see how well the BTW community took this :)
It's probably gonna be une autre paire de manche on the MCF.
Anyways, glad you got it out of your back, since it's something that was bugging you for a while now.


I know you, you always considered compatibility as a really important things, and even more keep people's worlds safe.
So, when you claim that staying in the Forge is killing your motivation and enjoyment of modding, who I'm I to judge. I'll be with you.

You know me, I've barely ever played with any other mods, so it won't affect me as a user.

[FlowerChild]

Glad to see how well the BTW community took this :)
It's probably gonna be une autre paire de manche on the MCF.
Anyways, glad you got it out of your back, since it's something that was bugging you for a while now.


I know you, you always considered compatibility as a really important things, and even more keep people's worlds safe.
So, when you claim that staying in the Forge is killing your motivation and enjoyment of modding, who I'm I to judge. I'll be with you.

You know me, I've barely ever played with any other mods, so it won't affect me as a user.

Thanks Batto. Yeah, it's weird man. After quietly fuming about this for a long time, yesterday I finally had a "fuck this" moment and decided to bring it all out in the open. It really wasn't a planned thing, as I had pretty much just resigned myself to leaving things the way they were so as not to rock the boat (which I think is how things stood the last time we talked about it).

As you know, keeping silent about things that are aggravating me is just not my nature :)

Anyways man, hopefully it will ease the pain somewhat to see that what is probably your most requested feature is ready for the next release ;)

[Battosay]

Anyways man, hopefully it will ease the pain somewhat to see that what is probably your most requested feature is ready for the next release ;)

Oh boy. Me. You. Babies. Now :)

[FlowerChild]

Oh boy. Me. You. Babies. Now :)

Rofl! Man, I really hope that doesn't become your *new* most requested feature :)

[CreeperCommando]

O.O Now I know I can't wait to see THE update that made me visualize Himura Kenshin and a black wolf with a red dash over it getting it on....... rule #34 I guess...


Back on track, I believe that this is looking great concerning the whole forge dropping. Almost , if not all, of this community is behind you FC, the MCF looks unexpectedly understanding too. Even friggin Spacetoad says he respects your decision in short notice!!!

[FlowerChild]

Back on track, I believe that this is looking great concerning the whole forge dropping. Almost , if not all, of this community is behind you FC, the MCF looks unexpectedly understanding too. Even friggin Spacetoad says he respects your decision in short notice!!!

Yeah, as I mentioned on MCF, I'm finding the response so far very reassuring. Even if all hell is inevitably destined to break loose over this, it is very good to know that many core members of the community support the decision.

[morvelaira]

The mind boggles...

I know neither of them is the type to wear the assless chaps... Who would be...? You know, nevermind. *brainbleach*

And back on topic myself - It's less that we support the decision and more that we support you. You may occasionally (read: often) be a strong-willed, abrasive bastard, but those of us who have come to know you a bit have found that when it comes to the mod, you make patient, methodical decisions for our benefit. I know at least I trust you when it comes to these sorts of things.

[AmishGoat]

Well it seems I'm a little late to the party, but I would like to add that I fully support the decision leave the Forge, your enjoyment is worth much more than compatibility with other mods.

[Mac]

Well I might not be all to happy about this, but it is for the best I presume.

My hope would be that this decision maybe just maybe affects some other authors
as well.
But ultimately I have to accept the fact that compatibility with other mods I play with are
a thing of the past now.
Considering that this decision is final as far as I can momentarily tell,
preparing for the worst case is all I can do, meaning I most likely will
have to choose this mod and start a brand new World regardless
of how hurtful that may be.

Keep on going as I'll also support this move.

[FlowerChild]

And back on topic myself - It's less that we support the decision and more that we support you. You may occasionally (read: often) be a strong-willed, abrasive bastard, but those of us who have come to know you a bit have found that when it comes to the mod, you make patient, methodical decisions for our benefit. I know at least I trust you when it comes to these sorts of things.

Hehe...thanks. And yes, I fully own up to the strong-willed and abrasive parts of being a bastard :)

I think most people expect that when you become any kind of public figure, your personality will suddenly disappear and you will be helpful and courteous at all times. I can understand having certain expectations in that regard when it comes to professionals or businesses that you are dealing with, and I've certainly done my share of playing the drone within a professional context, but I'm just a modder for Pete's sake. As I've said before, I have no commercial interest in any of this, and thus have no real reason to bite my tongue when I am treated in ways that I don't like or when unreasonable expectations are placed upon me.

Anyways, I digress. I'll just write it all off as the long-term effects on the masses of living in a plutocracy :)

[FlowerChild]

have to choose this mod and start a brand new World regardless
of how hurtful that may be.

:(

THAT is the part of all this that I hate the most man. Hopefully you know how committed I've been to avoiding damage to people's existing worlds in the past. Within Forge development I was probably the person most adamantly opposed to any extended block id solution largely for that reason.

I'm very sorry for that man. I love my own world dearly.

[SpaceToad]

My personal biggest gripe is the lack of a place to properly discuss possible hooks. The MC Forum thread is drowning in random users looking for support and as such doesnt get read. I once asked if there was a better place to discuss Forge, and was told IRC or private messages were the only options. Now in my personal opinion IRC is far too random and much too transient to be any better than the MC Forum thread. And PMs suffer from a lack of perspective from other modders. So if Forge is supposed to be a sharing of common ideas and solutions, there is no place to do so. An official forum or some kind of suggestion ticket system (with public discussion) would be a great step in the right direction and would hopefully help open up the development process.

I agree with all of this. There probably should be a governance committee or something - and some leadership. I had hope that I could provide some time over there, but my schedule was not compatible, and no real joint committee has emerged. Sounds like plan B needs to be found...

[Mac]

THAT is the part of all this that I hate the most man. Hopefully you know how committed I've been to avoiding damage to people's existing worlds in the past. Within Forge development I was probably the person most adamantly opposed to any extended block id solution largely for that reason.

I'm very sorry for that man. I love my own world dearly.

I know that you are trying to avoid exactly that.
But ultimately if this breaks compatibility that's the road I will have to go since
I did combine some forge mods.
But I think I keep a working backup of my world and configuration for old times sake and playing
of course.
All in all no hard feelings about that.

On a side note since I'm starting to learn java, maybe I can replace or add functionallity
for myself once I reach the necessary level to attempt such a feat,
which off course will take quite some time I presume so no promises on that.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I like the plan b talks :P

Ideally the "fork" scenario would work well, but whatever.

And I will go on and say this, if there is ever a successor, alternative, fork or whatever to the forge, regardless if BtW uses it, I would like FC to be a part of it, even to just be the voice of reason that keeps overambitious but ambiguous ideas in check :] After all, no matter how good he is in coding, it is his design skills and balancing instincts along with the refusal to drastically deviate from the vMC feel that have made BtW the great mod it is. ;]

It's correct that the general public hasn't yet realised what dropping the forge means, we will get a lot of "doesn't work wtf" when people realise what's going on.. But this community has had worse days I believe. All in all I think we can all say this went well.

[Sarudak]

So first off I want to say I understand. Your mod is amazing and you as a modder are doing this for your enjoyment and to create what you want to create. But maybe throwing away forge isn't the right approach. If Redpower 2 is causing all the problems then maybe redpower 2 is what needs to go its own way. I'm not down on Eloraam either. She's also doing this for her enjoyment and she is creating the game she wants to play. But couldn't you fork forge and strike out on your own? Even revert some of the changes. Honestly I think if people were to choose compatability with BTW or RP2 most would choose BTW (I could be wrong). Also if the API you are using stays simpler and less invasive and bloated then maybe that is better for everyone.

That said I would just like you to consider the idea as an option 3. If I have to have one BTW world and one forge world then I'll do that.

[Sealhunter]

Worlds can be fixed, jars can be backed up, but a lack of involvement in one of the foundations of your mod can't be remedied with hugs and kisses. Logic gates aren't too hard to learn (especially with pistons for stuff like T-flip flops) and any drop in usage of your mod won't really affect you as no revenue is generated whatsoever. Dropping the Forge is a step in the right direction IMO. Hardcore users of BTW will probably not even be affected (too badly) for the most part because this is one of the few mods that isn't op or nonsensical and therefore one of the few used by lovers of vMC. Kudos for sticking to your guns FC =)

Btw: what could this most requested feature be?

Edit: Sorry FC

[FlowerChild]

I'm gonna guess lenses...

I've already stated what it is within the suggestion sub-forum guys. Please don't derail this thread, especially with other developers participating.

EDIT: I've deleted a couple of messages to that end.

[finite8]

To be honest, i don't care which way this Mod goes. It is the most balanced, well built and well thought out addition to minecraft. Everything you have added fits in perfectly with the Vanilla Minecraft feel. Whatever you think is best for the mod i will support 100%. I appreciate it so much that I'm not even going to bother setting up a SMP server until the day comes that I can install BTW into it (I'm not even going to consider the possibility of you NOT doing SMP. In fact, I would pay to get this working in SMP). I don't know how you find and justify the time to do it, it really boggles my mind.

If you say "Fuck Forge", then so be it. It is hard enough organizing a group of developers to work on a single project, more so when it is also:
a) unpaid
b) geographically dispersed team
c) everyone from different skill sets / discipline
d) poorly managed / lead

Don't get me wrong, a lot of Opensource stuff has been under the same scenario and been a massive success, but there are also a lot that don't get that far.

[Sarudak]

Have you talked to the other modders who use forge to see if they have similar feelings?

EDIT: Sorry for going off topic

[finite8]

have to choose this mod and start a brand new World regardless
of how hurtful that may be.

:(

THAT is the part of all this that I hate the most man. Hopefully you know how committed I've been to avoiding damage to people's existing worlds in the past. Within Forge development I was probably the person most adamantly opposed to any extended block id solution largely for that reason.

I'm very sorry for that man. I love my own world dearly.

Would MCEdit be able to remove the invalid blockID's and data from the world file? I also remember hearing of some command-line tool for modifying world files. Alternatively, i know someone has written up a .NET API that allows for manipulation of the World Data, perhaps someone could figure out how to leverage that to clean out any invalid data (I'd love to, but i barely have enough time to play MC let alone write new code for it)?

[FlowerChild]

I agree with all of this. There probably should be a governance committee or something - and some leadership. I had hope that I could provide some time over there, but my schedule was not compatible, and no real joint committee has emerged. Sounds like plan B needs to be found...

I agree with both of you on this man, but one of the major problems I think such a project faces is that it absolutely does need some form of strong leadership that determines what should and should not go into it. Finding someone that would both be willing to devote the amount of time necessary and whom the community would accept in such a role would be extremely difficult (I think I'm immediately ruled out on both counts ;) ).

Obviously, with the vastly different skill levels and personal objectives of various modders, such an API couldn't be completely open or it would soon spiral out of control and become an absolute mess.

It really leaves me scratching my head as to what the optimal solution would be. As someone mentioned above the lack of financial incentive to keep people in line further complicates the process. Leading programmers has been likened to herding cats in the past, and I suspect without any money in the equation, that turns into drunk cats :)

[lostone1993]

I may just be a lurker, but I think you have made the right Call to drop it FC

No point Modding, if modding just becomes boring and frustrating

[Sarudak]

I agree with all of this. There probably should be a governance committee or something - and some leadership. I had hope that I could provide some time over there, but my schedule was not compatible, and no real joint committee has emerged. Sounds like plan B needs to be found...

I agree with both of you on this man, but one of the major problems I think such a project faces is that it absolutely does need some form of strong leadership that determines what should and should not go into it. Finding someone that would both be willing to devote the amount of time necessary and whom the community would accept in such a role would be extremely difficult (I think I'm immediately ruled out on both counts ;) ).

Obviously, with the vastly different skill levels and personal objectives of various modders, such an API couldn't be completely open or it would soon spiral out of control and become an absolute mess.

It really leaves me scratching my head as to what the optimal solution would be. As someone mentioned above the lack of financial incentive to keep people in line further complicates the process. Leading programmers has been likened to herding cats in the past, and I suspect without any money in the equation, that turns into drunk cats :)

You know that's a good point. I never thought about those issues. You have professional coders and teenage kids who learned java to write their first mod. You can't just have a free for all.

[CovertJaguar]

I agree with both of you on this man, but one of the major problems I think such a project faces is that it absolutely does need some form of strong leadership that determines what should and should not go into it. Finding someone that would both be willing to devote the amount of time necessary and whom the community would accept in such a role would be extremely difficult (I think I'm immediately ruled out on both counts ;) ).

I know I wouldn't want the job. And a job it would be. So yeah, not an easy solution.