Hardcore Buckets Option removal discussion

[FlowerChild]

Ok, so as one of the last remaining options in BTW, and the only one with significant gameplay impact, I want to put this out there:

I left HC Buckets optional largely to avoid creating inconsistencies in people's old worlds in terms of having some builds that were assembled without, and some that were assembled with. However, I'm beginning to have doubts as to whether there are really many people left where that's the case or not. It's the case with my old world, but I'm at the point where I'm willing to bite the bullet on that one for the sake of overall consistency, and since it's been quite awhile since my own design focus has shifted exclusively to hardcore buckets. I also know it's one of those options that new players have a tendency to just reflexively turn off which ultimately damages their own experience with the mod, thus it has continued to eat at me that the option remains present.

Heck, when Gil reported that bug with the lava buckets no longer working properly as furnace fuel on save/load, it really struck me that very few people indeed must be playing with it disabled for no one to have noticed that before. This highlighted that BTW just isn't designed to be played without HC Buckets anymore.

So, if you're one of those people for whom retaining the option is important *because it would create inconsistencies in your old worlds* please speak up here and let me know. If you're just someone that doesn't like HC buckets for whatever reason, I'm not interested in hearing such objections here. This is all about people who feel such a change would damage their worlds to speak up beforehand, so I can get a better impression of where people stand on it.

[LiquidAngel]

I'll chime in as the first to say, it'll damage my main single player world that I generated in 1.2.5, together with some of the SMP world I have with my friends. Though I will conform to what you deem best. I have nothing more to add than "yes, it would damage my world(s)"

[FlowerChild]

Just to make one thing clear here in case it wasn't before: already placed source blocks will of course remain where they are, thus, this wouldn't damage existing builds in any way. It's all about the lack of consistency in having non-HCB builds next to HCB builds.

Also, I'd like to get an idea of how important it is to people. It's a given that if you have an old world that this will be some kind of issue. However, whether that really means anything to you or not and to what degree is another matter.

Like I said above, it affects my own old world, but not to a degree that outweighs my desire for this to be non-optional.

[eternal8phoenix]

The only real reason I can see it being useful is for aesthetic builds using lava since there's no other way of moving that shit, and it can be nice in certain builds. However that in and of itself is hardly a good reason to keep it optional.

I was actually quite surprised that HC spawn went permanent before HC bucket since this feels so much more fitting and natural than hardcore spawn. (Nothing against it now, but at first it did make me not want to play. It took a long time to get used to. Buckets I tried once and fell for it, since it makes you work so much harder for that fountain and so makes it more treasured)

I imagine there are a few worlds where stuff will look out of place, but there have been many changes to the mod that have rendered features irrelevant. It vaguely reminds me of the HC beds. The beds are still around, but now useless, a testament to how much the game has changed. Old builds, I guess, stand as a memorial to a simpler time as we steam ahead to the future.

It's arguable that Strata and Abandoned villages have already made these old worlds a little out of place with the current game. I personally started a new world when you'd finished the world-gen changes and haven't looked back since. And I don't think I'm alone.

TL;DR HC Buckets is awesome, and it's worth leaving the old stuff behind in favor of making everyone experience them.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, the thing is that HC Spawn didn't impact old worlds the same way as Buckets, hence why it became non-optional first. As you guys know, messing with people's worlds is something I'm very conscientious about, which is why I opened up this discussion to talk it over before doing anything.

Stuff like the impact on aesthetic builds or whatever is what I meant in the OP about not wanting to hear about people's other objections to HCB. I'm specifically interested in the impact on existing worlds and that alone here.

[Ethinolicbob]

Yeah this one conflicts me.
When BTW hit SMP I started a large project on a server that would take me forever, and part of that project includes the aesthetic of lava. Drying up the lava from the Nether side of my base kind of scale.
It would be unfortunate to loose the ability to move it.
I do however, fully understand and agree with the need to remove all these balance altering options from the game.
I think that you should remove the option but I really really hope that you don't.

[FlowerChild]

I can hear that man. That's precisely the kind of damage that I've been trying to avoid.

[Yhetti]

I don't think it would really damage my world, but it would really hurt my ability to make aesthetics, also it would feel like I would have cheated in other source blocks I placed before. It would be really cool if it was kept as an option, but the ability to do it was somehow made way harder, like higher in the tech tree.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, like I said, don't want to hear about how it affects your play other than the impact on old worlds, and I REALLY wasn't looking for suggestions. Enjoy your vacation.

[chaoticneutral]

My "main" world (from MC 1.3.X, I think) has a bunch of buildings designed to use water sources, but in the event I need to change/tweak them, most of them can use screws without problem. I use lava+glass as lighting in some, but it's just a gimmick, no big deal.

[angra_mania]

On the server I play on, I have a reed farm scaled on a mountain slope which heavily uses moveable water. The only thing is I never finished an expansion of it. The move to HC Buckets wouldn't bother me too greatly, and if you decide to do so it would just kick me into finishing the project.

Having HCB builds next to builds that aren't HCB is a non-issue to me since I have toyed with voluntary HCB technical builds on the same server. So the only issue I see is builds that are in the process of being built with HCB off. And that can be postponed by delaying updating for a short while till they are done.

[BlindEndermen]

For those disabling HCB for aesthetic purposes there will be a solution even with HCB becoming non optional:
/give [playername] 9 1
(for water)
/give [playername] 11 1
(for lava)
this gives you a water/lava source block. And Yes it is cheating, but I guess it is intended to feel so!

So you are still free to use water/Lava as aesthetic element, there is just some cheating required.
And the fact that it will still be possible is the reason why FC is only asking for old worlds to break! (at least I guess so)

[FlowerChild]

Sigh...

[FlowerChild]

Ok, going to reopen this one as I'm considering a compromise given the specific issues here:

What I'm thinking of doing is removing the config file option and replacing it with a cheat-code/command line option to turn HC Buckets off. This way, people with old worlds/servers can still disable it, but the option itself is more clearly labeled as "cheating", and won't be available to players in SSP unless they specifically enable cheats.

This would then be similar to how I removed the co-ordinates with the F3 debug menu, but implemented the "/loc" command which effectively does the same thing so that server operators can still use it if need be.

This sound reasonable to people that have a vested interest in this option?

[Rob]

What I'm thinking of doing is removing the config file option and replacing it with a cheat-code/command line option to turn HC Buckets off.

Konami Code ftw!?!

I think that is a perfectly reasonable compromise, considering you aren't obliged to give us anything. Anyone who complains is just doing so out of spite.

[FlowerChild]

Well, I ask just because I want to make sure that it covers the various circumstances, and is a reasonable tool for server operators.

[Ethinolicbob]

Looks good!
No complaints here. Just means that I have to butter up my server op. :P

[Gunnerman21]

We will still have infinite springs in The End at least :) and those lucky people that can live there will be happy to have that bonus. I'm all for the change (thumbsup)

[BinoAl]

I hadn't thought about that; It's a perfect solution imo

[Heilkaiba]

Seems ideal to me. Forces people to use HCB and thus removes it as an option that needs to be catered for but I can still do an aesthetic build with water/lava if I really want to.

[Battlecat]

Having it as a cheat command for server operators sounds like an excellent solution FC. It makes HCB the obvious default playstyle but gives older server operators a way to switch back if they feel the need.

[Gears]

Definitely reasonable. Seems like a sound compromise, mate.

[FlowerChild]

Ug.

MCF Post

In particular, this part:

I actually disable hardcore buckets (because I love how unique Minecraft's liquid system is) and could make a portal with them, but I'm wondering how you would make a portal without them... Unless it comes down to being extremely lucky and finding 3 exposed diamonds in a cave that reaches down to where you can't mine normally.

This has got to go guys. I don't think about gameplay without HC Buckets very often anymore, but the above has made me realize that it's seriously fucking with the tech tree, and as always, noobs will have a tendency towards turning off anything different from what they're used to without fully understanding what it does to the game.

It's gotten to the point where playing without it breaks BTW rather severely IMO.

[Gormador]

This has got to go guys.

Yeaaaaaaaaah !

Also : The lack of challenge caused by not having hardcore bucket on feel so like not BTW that playing that way is almost like cheating BTW's awesome gameplay. (That sentence made sense in my head.)

[Zhil]

You should've cut the option ages ago man. You didn't because you didn't want to break a largely aesthetic part of old worlds, but at the point where it interferes with balance, it's a no-brainer to me.

Besides, part of it is people with old vanilla worlds that want to switch to BTW. That's no longer an issue as that's no longer a recommended way of getting into the mod I feel.

I don't feel like there's any pro-optional arguments left that make any sense, especially not aesthetic ones. Designing water features with screw pumps is infinitely more satisfying than plopping sources down.