4.71 Gameplay Balance Discussion Thread (READ RULES OR BAN)

[Ozziie]

Another thing I've noticed that feels fairly harsh is the new seed output from wheat not enabling expansion of my farm. It feels like it has taken an unreasonable amount of time to add another 3x3 plot to a current 6 plot wheat farm while I'm swimming in hemp and seeds, especially now that I'm comfortably able to fertilise the farm. The original 6 plot came from the seeds I brought back from an inhabited village.

I can't compare this to potatoes or carrots as I haven't got them yet but it's something I'd like to talk about with anyone else that has felt it?

[Sarudak]

Hmmm... That sounds interesting. I am reminded of a comment I once made about loose threads on sweaters. ;)

As much as I like it one negative effect about the change made to the monster AI is that I find myself thinking about meta-game concerns like 'has this area been loaded up before and for how long'. If I'm building a base in a certain area in the early game I think about things like 'If I don't do any explore in that direction then there will still be animals over there when I have the resources to lure them to my base'. Those kinds of things. Maybe that's just an unavoidable tradeoff though. :)

[magicjani]

The HC Bouncing... It makes building a pain in the ass now. Sure, it does (kinda) prevent the easy "pillaring" (you can dig down a few blocks and cover the top, even easier than pillars) and catching yourself midair when falling off cliffs, but that's also about it.

Yes, I know that I can use platforms to counter this, but that only slows you down. The results of your building are the same, but it's just not fun to build anymore. Sure, I can build layer by layer, but nobody likes constantly changing through inventory like every third block.

Also, I hate it when I "finish" a building, break all the scaffolding around it, then go to take a look at it and realize I made let's say 2 mistakes at placing blocks, or I could have done it better. Now I have to place the scaffolding all over again and that feels kinda like "grinding", while I could use that time for doing something far more efficient.

Overall, it really shines early game when you simply cannot afford to break too many shovels after "spending the night" on your pillar, doing nothing, while you could make yourself a cave and dig in that time. But late game, when you already have armor and stuff, it's kinda pointless and drives you insane sometimes (at least that's what I experienced).

[FlowerChild]

Overall, it really shines early game when you simply cannot afford to break too many shovels after "spending the night" on your pillar, doing nothing, while you could make yourself a cave and dig in that time. But late game, when you already have armor and stuff, it's kinda pointless and drives you insane sometimes (at least that's what I experienced).

I in no way sympathize. What I've done is given you additional considerations to factor into your building process. Play creative if gameplay is not part of the building experience to you, and any gameplay considerations while building just "slow you down".

[FlowerChild]

As much as I like it one negative effect about the change made to the monster AI is that I find myself thinking about meta-game concerns like 'has this area been loaded up before and for how long'. If I'm building a base in a certain area in the early game I think about things like 'If I don't do any explore in that direction then there will still be animals over there when I have the resources to lure them to my base'. Those kinds of things. Maybe that's just an unavoidable tradeoff though. :)

That's not meta to me though, in the same way that mobs only spawning around Steve isn't meta to me. I've chosen to try and make that an integrated part of the gameplay experience.

The underlying message is that your very presence leads to the destruction around you, and that includes stuff like how long you've spent in a region.

[utakataJ6]

Really love the current beginning of the game. I recently introduced another old minecraft friend to BTW and he immediately dubbed it "The real hardcore version." Comments:

*The radius for how far away villages are abandoned is brutal. Opinion.
*I've now raided three desert temples and, while they feel balanced, the only change to loot I have found is that I'm really loading up on those unstackable ancient manuscripts.
*I currently carry around dirt slabs at the beginning of the game, because crippled steve can mount these to get out of a few near-death situations. I'm not sure if I should feel proud for doing this or if I'm circumventing a feature.

[magicjani]

I in no way sympathize. What I've done is given you additional considerations to factor into your building process. Play creative if gameplay is not part of the building experience to you, and any gameplay considerations while building just "slow you down".

Exactly. This change slows down the building process, while the end results of your creations are still the same. I don't see this as a positive factor in the gameplay. The platforms were added before this change, and if anyone wanted to use them, he did. Not everyone likes the same way of building.

[Six]

Also, I hate it when I "finish" a building, break all the scaffolding around it, then go to take a look at it and realize I made let's say 2 mistakes at placing blocks, or I could have done it better. Now I have to place the scaffolding all over again and that feels kinda like "grinding", while I could use that time for doing something far more efficient.

Even previous to this change, I've found myself putting access ladders up on the sides of buildings already, using those to get on top to build and rebuild parts. There's certain structures where this doesn't work so well, like the side of a tall building, but I found that working quite well for me.

Another thing I've noticed that feels fairly harsh is the new seed output from wheat not enabling expansion of my farm. It feels like it has taken an unreasonable amount of time to add another 3x3 plot to a current 6 plot wheat farm while I'm swimming in hemp and seeds, especially now that I'm comfortably able to fertilise the farm. The original 6 plot came from the seeds I brought back from an inhabited village.

I can't compare this to potatoes or carrots as I haven't got them yet but it's something I'd like to talk about with anyone else that has felt it?

I've seen this in the opposite sense. The relatively low seed output of wheat (an average of around 1.3 from what I've seen) has actually highlighted just how many seeds hemp outputs. When the pretty seedy regrowth of the top half is added to the fact I don't need to use one of them to replant after harvesting, I'm pretty quickly swimming in hemp seeds.

[FlowerChild]

*The radius for how far away villages are abandoned is brutal. Opinion.

Intentionally so, and for two reasons:

a) To prevent intentionally dying to discover villages, the radius has to be outside of the HC spawn one by a sufficient margin that you will tend to not accidentally stumble into one upon respawn. The only other solution to that would be to reduce HC Spawn radius, but that would obviously nerf that feature significantly, and it feels about right at present.

b) To make the nether the primary way of accessing populated villages and thus give nether access a more tangible benefit, and to emphasize its strengths throughout the game at all stages of play by making its fast-travel aspects an integrated part of gameplay rather than just the occasional convenience. This was the big thing that wasn't immediately apparent to a lot of people with abandoned villages: that a big part of its design intent was to better integrate the nether into the game, in a rather subtle by meaningful way.

Sure, you can go nomad if you choose to and head out right from the get go, but largely the design intent is to break the game up into multiple stages where you first settle and work your way through the basic tech tree (which is its own experience), then once you gain access to the nether, it opens up the larger world to you along with a whole other set of resources and possibilities.

[FlowerChild]

Exactly. This change slows down the building process, while the end results of your creations are still the same.

That could be said of the entire mod. By this logic, anything that slows you down in getting the diamonds and "beating" MC isn't worthwhile.

I don't see this as a positive factor in the gameplay.

The additional gameplay is the additional consideration and planning it requires, even if it is only a small amount.

Again: you'll get the same result out of your construction in creative. What makes you hesitate in doing it there instead?

Not everyone likes the same way of building.

And not everyone gives a fuck about variable preferences in gameplay. I know I don't, and have amply demonstrated that on mutliple fronts.

[magicjani]

By this logic, anything that slows you down in getting the diamonds and "beating" MC isn't worthwhile.

Building a cobble hut and making tools of mass destruction are 2 very different things.

Again: you'll get the same result out of your construction in creative. What makes you hesitate in doing it there instead?

This mod (total conversion).

And not everyone gives a fuck. I know I don't.

If that was true, no HC change would be optional.

[FlowerChild]

Building a cobble hut and making tools of mass destruction are 2 very different things.

Only in scale. Gameplay occurs in the process of achieving something, not in actually achieving it. The satisfaction in building something in MC largely comes from the constraints you face and overcoming them along the way, with everything from resource gathering to not being able to fly around at will and needing "scaffolds" to begin with being part of that.

To your line of reasoning, the end result seems to be the only thing that matters.

If that was true, no HC change would be optional.

The only reason they're optional is because of the impact they have on existing worlds. Believe me, I'd prefer if they weren't, and there are only two left that are.

You've done your whining about HC Bouncing man, nothing further can be achieved by continuing this line of conversation at present, as like I said, it's a feature I'll be evaluating over time to determine if it needs further additions (like actual scaffold blocks) to further refine. At present, your time with it hasn't been sufficient to provide credible input on such a feature, and what you've said is just coming across as reflexive and uninformed bitching.

[Ceunon]

I've started a new world yesterday (spent the last couple of weeks preparing my old world to port to the newer updates), and I'll admit that I'm having a blast. I'm not having much trouble surviving since I started playing with the mindset that I would have to be *extremely* careful. I'm currently in a small pit next to a big ore and and monster-full ravine, with my first iron pick and enough iron to build a few extra tools.
Some thoughts I have on the recent changes:

-Hunger and Health Management: Doable. A smart player can survive without clogging the inventory and limiting his movements. I've been avoiding to sprint, only doing it when I need to kill creepers. I like how dirt slabs became a major asset for the smart player; I've been using them in most deep caves I find and know I have to climb up and down frequently.

-Stone picks and overall Stone>Iron transition: This one is tricky. While I think that getting your first iron pick is *much* more rewarding, I feel it's a huge leap. Perhaps a little bit too big. I think that the main issue is that the stone pick virtually gives you 3 uses, since you have to use the other 3 to gather enough cobble to build another one. When I was earlier in the game, I was actually considering getting the shears before my first pick and find a place to establish myself, and I thought that kind of decision the player has to make (Do I get myself a small, but sustainable, food source, or do get a pick and speed up the mining/spelunking process?). In the current situation, the player doesn't have much choice.

-Wolves. Yes, wolves. I've found out that they're actually really useful (*gasp!*). I spawned relatively close to a taiga biome, and, after my first night, gathered a few bones and managed to tame a couple of wolves. Damn, they are great for hunting. I know I can't sprint after my hunt, so I just hit it once and let them do the dirty job. They are also great at fighting monsters during the night. I've had nights when I didn't even hole myself in the ground, simply kept exploring while gathering loot. And I don't even have to feed them. I don't really know how I feel about them. I think the wolves might be a bit too good, but they're also a reward for exploration.

That's all I can remember for now. If I have anything of note later, I'll be sure to post it.

Edit #2 - Oh, and regarding Hardcore Bouncing: Oddly enough, there hasn't been a single time where I actually tried to place a block while in the air. And I used to build pillars quite frequently. Interestingly, I'm always reminding myself "you can't do that now, so don't even try it". I don't feel affected by the change, even though I know it does change my play style. I think that's really a plus.

Edit: Typo and spacing out the paragraphs.

[Nelgoth]

So far I am really liking the new updates. Work has been brutal and I was a few updates behind. I now have several days of 4.7 under my belt and have come to enjoy the changes. I did not initially embrace the stone tool rework with alacrity, but have now arrived at the fifth stage of grief and it is starting to feel right. I do feel like stone tools should be more effective as weapons (Not harder hitting, just not shattering after 3 swings against a meat sack.) Let it be clear, I am not complaining, or asking for the nonsensical stone sword back, I like the reasons to get a sword ASAP, it just feels weird that stone breaks so quickly (also, given the high importance of stone weapons in history, it seems like they would have more of a place in the BTW chronological tech tree.) As far as Hard core bouncing goes, it only feels natural so I have little to say.

I have a lot of leather in my world so I am not sure what the cloth stage feels like in real play but I will say that I really love the option of cloth armor (clothes) and the direction it could take a few game mechanics. I had even kicked around the ideas so much that I almost risked posting in the banthread a few months ago just to let the ideas out of my head. In fact, I am restraining so hard from making a suggestion here that I think I gave myself a tumor. But at least now that I know the ideas are bouncing around in FC's head, I can sleep easier.

My high point for this release.... I absolutely love the idea of requiring tools for recipes and I really hope to see more of this. It makes the whole leather process feel more immersive and intuitive.

I hope this post is a little less of an amalgamation of in-coherency than my last. This time I am a little more lucid, as I wrote it pre-booze. :)

Thanks again,

[FlowerChild]

(Not harder hitting, just not shattering after 3 swings against a meat sack.)

If I remember right, stone axes can last 25 hits vs mobs before breaking. That might not be precisely right, but it's also definitely not 3.

[FlowerChild]

I
-Stone picks and overall Stone>Iron transition: This one is tricky. While I think that getting your first iron pick is *much* more rewarding, I feel it's a huge leap. Perhaps a little bit too big.

This is intentional, for a few reasons. First, the thing I mentioned about materials above. A stone pick is not a reasonable tool. You're banging two rocks together in the hopes the one you're holding isn't the one that breaks first.

An iron pick however is an effective tool. Thus, the difference needs to be dramatic to highlight that.

Next is the second level of struggle I mentioned once you hit iron where you have to make sure to accumulate enough iron while using it to make a second pick, and enough surplus to start expanding into other tool types. From my play experience with the current values, it feels just about right at present to maintain the pressure while still allowing the player to make progress.

And lastly, the difference has to be dramatic in order to convince people that stone picks are not reasonable tools and they really should be upgrading to iron instead of spending the whole frigging game branch mining with stone, which I know people were still doing with the values previous to this release, even though the difference was still quite significant. It really needs to be an on/off thing as a result where it's "I can't reasonably mine with this", and "I can mine quite well with this".

To create the kind of "stone as a barrier" feeling that I've been talking about, stone picks need to be utter rubbish, and iron picks need to be on a whole other planet in terms of effectiveness.

[DaveYanakov]

(Not harder hitting, just not shattering after 3 swings against a meat sack.)

If I remember right, stone axes can last 25 hits vs mobs before breaking. That might not be precisely right, but it's also definitely not 3.

It has been my experience that they last around 9-12 hits while spam clicking against zombies. I can usually bring down two but then I need to either switch to a fresh one or bend over and kiss myself goodbye.

Just tested this against four zombies with two brand new stone axes. The second was in very deep red condition after the fourth zombie went down.

[FlowerChild]

It has been my experience that they last around 9-12 hits while spam clicking against zombies. I can usually bring down two but then I need to either switch to a fresh one or bend over and kiss myself goodbye.

Just tested this against four zombies with two brand new stone axes. The second was in very deep red condition after the fourth zombie went down.

The problem is you're spam clicking and hitting the zombie far more frequently than you think. The zombie has a cooldown counter that prevents it from being damaged too rapidly.

Stop spam clicking and time your individual strikes so they actually cause damage, and you'll find your axes lasting way longer.

The fact that there's any variance in your results (9-12) indicates you're hitting more frequently than you're actually causing damage, as the axes cause fix damaged, the zombies have a fixed hit point value, the axes have a fixed number of hit points, and get damaged a fixed amount with each strike. In other words, what's going on is entirely deterministic with your clicking being the only possible variable there.

On one hand, it could be argued the above is very gamey, but on the other, it could also be argued that flailing your weapon around like a lunatic would result in more chance of breakage, and I don't exactly feel like getting into a combat overhaul on top of everything else I'm doing :)

[DaveYanakov]

I agree with that train of thought but there are lag issues involved. If I don't spam click I can consider myself lucky to be able to walk away from a pair of zombies without being crippled. Far more often it results in death even when I have the space to continue backing away rather than advancing on them or putting my back to a wall. I'm not trying to say combat is broken, just observing that axes with the change to stone picks feel very expensive for what they can do.

[FlowerChild]

I agree with that train of thought but there are lag issues involved. If I don't spam click I can consider myself lucky to be able to walk away from a pair of zombies without being crippled. Far more often it results in death even when I have the space to continue backing away rather than advancing on them or putting my back to a wall.

I wouldn't argue it's entirely reasonable man, but like I said, it's beyond the scope of what I'm willing to tackle, especially since I don't consider combat to be a key aspect of the game.

Just explaining why your axes are likely breaking more rapidly than they should from my knowledge of the MC code-base.

[FlowerChild]

Ah, fuck it, I'll change it so weapons only take damage if you actually cause damage as that will likely be far more intuitive.

If this spirals into some kind of complete overhaul of combat though, you're going to owe me a couple of dozen cases of beer :)

[Mr_Hosed]

I've only been able to spend about 2 hours with 4.70. Fortunately I started just after I died and respawned at a new location.

Here are my observations so far.

• Dirt is my friend. I'm building a LOT with dirt. Especially since early on cobble is SO valuable and wood is pretty valuable.
• Caving is my friend. I only mine stone for more tools now.
• Don't bother trying to build anything cosmetic, atleast I haven't reached a point were I have enough resources to expend tool life on cosmetic builds yet.
• It's very hard getting to redstone for a compass to get back to spawn to map a path to my base. I've no idea where they are since I've yet to make it back to spawn from a single one. I've reached iron 3 times already, but keep dieing to monsters on the trek back to spawn.
• Hardcore Bouncing hasn't really had an effect on my play yet (I'm not building anything more then dirt huts or walls on caves after all) other then when placing torches. This is most notable in caves. No more acrobatic steve antics with torches.

The biggest difference in my play style, and your stated intent, is that I'm not building branch mines... at all. Even in 4.67 it was still worth it to build a branch mine with stone picks because just a couple of branches would provide enough diamonds and iron to upgrade. Not any more.

[Gunnerman21]

On my server, we've been struggling a lot with getting cobble, but i like it ;) (my friend doesnt at all XD) we've solely been living off of meager amounts of sheep and we stay inside the little village smithy hut every night. One thing we've found is that every village we found (3) doesnt have any carrots or potatoes, only wheat. That made me wonder if i missed something in the changelog about your "overhaul" of villages, did you change the frequency of carrot and potato crops?

[Taleric]

Can't wait for the gold fix. I feel this is the last exploit that I use to fast track. That and I need to stop doing large biomes. With so many temple and village spawn locations, I am set once I hit a distant desert.

I feel way more compelled to venture out and secure wheat right off the bat then to "tech" to portal near spawn. I still get to cave/tech as I travel and before returning. Without the ability to breed animals beyond chicken if I hang around it will just be harder later on to bring other livestock back to the area. Have spent time locking down animals for later before, often mob mishaps or clipping suffocation gets them.

[Sarudak]

If this spirals into some kind of complete overhaul of combat though, you're going to owe me a couple of dozen cases of beer :)

I would be in for that. And consider it money well spent...