4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

[odemarken]

If it takes you an hour to find 27 iron, you're definitely doing something (majorly) wrong.

Woops. Well, yeah, I kinda suspected it myself.
So, "scavenging" for iron is more effective? Will try.

And yeah, I forgot HCS is still optional, but I probably won't disable it anyway if I don't die a LOT, because I really like the way it makes me take every possible precaution against dying.

This is something even in vanilla which has bothered me in the past. That activities like mining out massive caverns and chopping whole forest down take very little stamina compared to simply sprinting and jumping.

Also, this. One reason my "adventure" felt wrong is that this prolonged mining session was only fueled by 4-5 cooked steaks, and I still had plenty of food when I emerged from the mine despite having spent very little time hunting.

On a related note, I'm having mixed feelings about the fact that it pays off to dig up some dirt and put dirt slabs under your feet as you go, instead of jumping to go uphill. I like that it pays off to plan your actions and be careful about what you do, but hey, building a semi-permanent dirt ramp uses up less energy than climbing a hill? Seems weird, although it might be one of those cases where gameplay balance takes precedence before realism.

I should also say I'm really loving those recent changes, I mean, I hate some of them ;) but have no doubt they make the game SO much better. Thanks, man, your work is awesome.

[Ferrus.Manus]

In the case of the Hand Crank, your post served to remind me that I had originally balanced its hunger consumption to be significant *by vanilla rules*, and thus I obviously jacked it way up, since hunger is trivially easy to satisfy there.

I think same applies to screws - 8 Iron per pump was OK in pre-Hardcore Iron worlds where iron was nearly worthless (though I actually ran out of Iron when making SF Steel beacons, those things are bloody expensive, as they should be), but under Hardcore Iron this seems bit to steep for blocks intended to be used in large numbers IMO. I started this world before Screw Pumps were introduce so my main base is non-HCB and is pretty far away from natural water sources. I was planning too convert it to HCB by building water tower and aqueduct but after this change I just don't see myself getting enough iron any time soon.

[Graphite]

I think same applies to screws - 8 Iron per pump was OK in pre-Hardcore Iron worlds where iron was nearly worthless (though I actually ran out of Iron when making SF Steel beacons, those things are bloody expensive, as they should be), but under Hardcore Iron this seems bit to steep for blocks intended to be used in large numbers IMO. I started this world before Screw Pumps were introduce so my main base is non-HCB and is actually really far away from natural sources. I was planning too convert it to HCB but after this change I just don't see myself getting enough iron any time soon.

Haven't played that far yet myself, but from what I gathered mobtraps produce iron ingots, not nuggets (simply because the stuff they drop is crafted with ingots). As such it would become your primary source of iron later in the game. It does move the screwpump stage to a later point though, as mass-producing them is certainly doesn't seem very viable before you have said mobtrap.

[Edit] Crap... thought this was the release thread. Apologies for speculating in here, FC.

[FlowerChild]

I think same applies to screws - 8 Iron per pump was OK in pre-Hardcore Iron worlds where iron was nearly worthless (though I actually ran out of Iron when making SF Steel beacons, those things are bloody expensive, as they should be), but under Hardcore Iron this seems bit to steep for blocks intended to be used in large numbers IMO. I started this world before Screw Pumps were introduce so my main base is non-HCB and is pretty far away from natural water sources. I was planning too convert it to HCB by building water tower and aqueduct but after this change I just don't see myself getting enough iron any time soon.

So, you're basing this on theoretical wankery rather than actual play? Probably should have read the OP...

[ion]

only at lower tier or after a death iron is an issue. like before this hardcore stuff, i mine iron only for the ore i don't even care to smelt it once you have a trap going.
got into the nether and blazes and wither combo is the best for player killing. both give you big damage and the best approach is to use a bow, i never used a bow before the injuries system as i could tank everything in iron armor.

[Nelgoth]

My impression of the past few patches; I love where the balance changes are taking the game and hope for more nerfs and expansions on, and tweaks for the survival processes.

Observations: Food is still easy to get, I feel like, (strike that) I am abusing the system when I cram 2000 cows into a 5X5 pen (I feel like I am going to get a call from PETA or something). Space requirements for entities seems like it would resolve the issue or more restrictive breeding requirements? Though, hardcore lactation seems to be taking this in that direction (with the necessity of grass for milking) so perhaps this is a moot discussion.

As far as nomadic food gathering (and at home for that matter) a more extensive food preparation process may take care of the issue, along with just making the littler bastards harder to kill in the wild; faster, stronger, and in general, more wary of people approaching them with glowing swords and covered in the blood of their herdsmen(herdskind? Meh, w/e).

This also leads in to the need for more animal by-products, namely dung and bone (but perhaps uses for fat and additional uses for leather will wander into the mind of FC). While it is completely satisfying to fertilize my crops, and create soup stock from my fallen humanoid enemies, it is kinda gross when you stop and think about it. Also, every body poops (though perhaps the concentrated evil that comes out of the filthy, useless depths of a wolf will always remain superior.) That is all, can't wait for more releases!!!!

[FlowerChild]

Also, every body poops (though perhaps the concentrated evil that comes out of the filthy, useless depths of a wolf will always remain superior.) That is all, can't wait for more releases!!!!

Yes, but as always been pointed out when the topic of shit has come up in the past: not every animal produces dung useful for tanning. That's typically only true of the dung of carnivores, of which wolves are pretty much the only example in MC (except cats...which don't poop because they're perfect).

[Nelgoth]

I was thinking more for fertilizer options, but with that point having been made, I suppose it would not make sense to have 2 types of feces in a game, haha. Then we would have to have a shit organization system, which is really not how I like to spend my computer gaming time.

[DaveYanakov]

It's a small thing but the transition from scrabbling for every spare nugget of iron to 'goddamn that's a lot of iron' as soon as you get a crucible into the system is kind of jarring. Would it make sense at this point to introduce a little bit of loss into melting iron back down now that ingots are a divisible unit? Not a huge amount, just enough to keep it from being infinite without requiring Steve to walk out his front door.

Also, side observation. The previous one of these balance threads was mostly people pointing out where things might be overly difficult. This one everyone is talking about how things are too easy. Sounds like you got something right.

[FlowerChild]

Also, side observation. The previous one of these balance threads was mostly people pointing out where things might be overly difficult. This one everyone is talking about how things are too easy. Sounds like you got something right.

Hehe...keen observation there man :)

And yes, the ratio is often more important than the specific comments. Now you're thinking with game design! ;)

When dealing with unknowns, I also tend to look at subtleties like grammar and spelling to give a clue as to what kind of player I'm dealing with. Someone ranting about how hard it is while making a ton of typos and totally freaking out of course immediately identifies what kind of gamer you're dealing with, and you can quite safely chuck those comments into the bin.

Well...unless you're Mojang, in which case you give those ones top priority.

[XantyZon]

It's a small thing but the transition from scrabbling for every spare nugget of iron to 'goddamn that's a lot of iron' as soon as you get a crucible into the system is kind of jarring. Would it make sense at this point to introduce a little bit of loss into melting iron back down now that ingots are a divisible unit? Not a huge amount, just enough to keep it from being infinite without requiring Steve to walk out his front door.

What I get from this is that you want a percentage chance of losing a nugget here and there when you're smelting metal items. I twitch at the thought of losing metal but that sounds very reasonable.

edit: switched the word iron to metal

[Gunnerman21]

I thought the purpose of the crucible is to save all the metal? To have a system that makes metal tools renewable along with the natural things like leather handles and sticks. To me it seems a little odd that a small scrap of metal would just disappear off of a sword or something when placed in a big pot.

:Edited for mistakes

[dawnraider]

Keep in mind though that some wears off in battle, other bits stick to the sides of the crucible, and others spill or form nuggets too small to be usable. That does seem like a reasonable thing to do.

Edit: grammar

[FlowerChild]

Yup, that's something I've been considering myself, but I'll likely continue to ponder it for awhile given it's a fairly fundamental shift in philosophy.

At the very least, it would also require corresponding SFS nuggets unless it's decided that the magical properties of it hold it together intact. We'll see.

I do like the idea of slow loss with time on iron and gold though, but again, by that stage you're in mob-trap land, so it's unlikely it would have a significant impact on actual play.

But yeah...lots of questions there, the big one being whether it actually changes things significantly enough to be worth implementing, or would be more of a "it's just a nice little detail that affects nothing in practice" kinda change.

[chaoticneutral]

Before the recent changes, my approach to iron was something like that:
Mine some ore. If I find a village around, that's nice, but it's not really a pressing issue - if I did find, I would just spam some doors until a walking piece of iron ore (golem) appeared. Even so, I needed a stack or so of ore, so why care?

The occasional smeltable mob drop was a nice bonus, just that - not something I would go after. Creating the mob grinder was a luxury for the late game, after my base was roughly self-sustainable.

Now, though, in my new world*...
I mined a stack and half or so of iron. Used it for a pickaxe and some armor, and then, it was over, just some nuggets left.
Breeding Testificates is out of question, I need my diamonds.
Sitting at night with a sword, waiting for zeds is almost suicide. Call me a pussy, but for the first time after 1.8b, I've dug a dry moat around my base, with some signs here and there, so the sun kills them at the morning (it doesn't solve the spider problem, but those usually clog in my door and I can kill them without risking myself). I feel the need for a real mob grinder, both because I need kibble to breed dogs (wolfchops maybe will become my staple food until I find a village) and for the iron, zombies are reminding me the goblinite from Dwarf Fortress.

Overall, the game is really harder - a welcome change for me.

*Obs: I did this world solely to taste and test the new things, my old world is still intact.

[FlowerChild]

I feel the need for a real mob grinder, both because I need kibble to breed dogs (wolfchops maybe will become my staple food until I find a village)

Lol! Oh wow man. I hadn't even considered people breeding wolves for wolf chops as an early game food source with all these changes.

Too frigging cool. Suits the mod so perfectly, and I hadn't even thought of it :)

[PatriotBob]

I feel the need for a real mob grinder, both because I need kibble to breed dogs (wolfchops maybe will become my staple food until I find a village)

Lol! Oh wow man. I hadn't even considered people breeding wolves for wolf chops as an early game food source with all these changes.

Too frigging cool. Suits the mod so perfectly, and I hadn't even thought of it :)

If that's not a testament to good design, I'm not sure what is.

I started a world to try out the HCH with the new iron change and I have to say it extends the life of the early tech tree a huge amount. I spent a long, long time looking for a village. And when I finally did I had 7 iron bars and 12 nuggets to show for it. (The 7 bars from a jungle temple) I'd say that the new balance of iron is in a really nice spot right now. If anything that jungle temple could be toned back a bit, but that's a minor thing. The only concern I have so far is buckets seems a bit pricey, but you're already on that.

I didn't even realize that there were poisonous potatoes in the game until I had to farm them for HCH, so that's saying something about their change in value. :)

Oh and like the mystery meat. Nice touch. I can't help but think of "Book of Eli" when I see that. Haven't been brave enough to eat it yet...

Amazing work. Love it.

[DaveYanakov]

Eh, SFS has its own loss involved with padding and hafts. I doubt you would need to add more to it compared to something like an iron sword smelting back down into 16 nuggets. Any sort of mob trap or mining operation would reintroduce more than enough iron to keep things sustainable.

[Six]

I feel the need for a real mob grinder, both because I need kibble to breed dogs (wolfchops maybe will become my staple food until I find a village)

Lol! Oh wow man. I hadn't even considered people breeding wolves for wolf chops as an early game food source with all these changes.

Too frigging cool. Suits the mod so perfectly, and I hadn't even thought of it :)

I considered this, but the kibble does still need the stoked cauldron, so requires some work to get to. But once you get it you can also have pig breeding going before finding carrots.

[FlowerChild]

I considered this, but the kibble does still need the stoked cauldron, so requires some work to get to. But once you get it you can also have pig breeding going before finding carrots.

Well, I was thinking more of the wolves acting as a potential meat multiplier earlier on in the game.

Kill cows for meat. Breed wolves with meat. Get more meat. Etc.

It's not a never ending cycle of course, as you can't use the wolf meat to breed more wolves, but might be a tasty bonus for the refined palate.

I'll check the numbers to see if that works, and I might just make changes to the wolf code if not ;)

[Sarudak]

It's not a never ending cycle of course, as you can't use the wolf meat to breed more wolves, but might be a tasty bonus for the refined palate.

I'll check the numbers to see if that works, and I might just make changes to the wolf code if not ;)

I'm fairly certain I've never seen a wolf drop more than two wolf chops which would mean you're getting worse than you started with.

[JakeZKAM]

Meat is still very much the early game food of choice. After travelling for a couple days in game I had 4 stacks of cooked pork, 2 Stacks of Cooked beef, full leather armor, several stone swords, axe, and pickaxe, and a bow/handful of arrows. While travelling is far from difficult, one mistake and you can be seriously fucked. Having more things to be edible would be nice yet food is already very easy to find. You need a LOT but still moving around and hunting as you go is an extremely viable source of food.

That said setting up a base and now transitioning to Iron is much harder now, requiring some form of stable food source before you try it. Also I can't really attest to how it feels in terms of obtaining iron in vanilla (as I use COG) but damn from what I can get ahold of it certainly drains through it quickly.

Making Iron ingots has added another "Drainable" Resource, making me want to find a better solution than simply mining it quickly. It's like moving up in food sources, starting out with Hunting/Scraping by with some measly form of farming, to much more advanced farms and food sources. In this you start out scraping about for Iron and eventually move up to hoarding it in droves again :P.

These draining needs are extremely awesome as they add a sense of urgency for me early game to get some farms started to support them. I can only imagine what it would be like if you were supporting multiple Steves in a community.

As for armor it feels right. Having some sort of penalty to running around clad in Iron seems right, and adds more balance to PVP/Combat in the game.

Pretty much all the other tidbits and tweaks feel great, I feel like I'm playing a complete game now but I'm still anxious to see what you'll come up with next so not getting too attached to any worlds I start :P

On a final note too bad Mystery Meat is so expensive, My steve seems to have acquired a taste for it ;)

[ThePowerofTower]

Actually, to amend a post I made earlier, I realize now that my abundance of food isn't anything to do with what your update did to food quantities, but it made me focus on food for the early game; instead of working out making a house, or considering large-scale mining operations, I've been killing every animal in smelling distance and searching for the village for the farming. I still think kebabs might be a little OP, but they certainly do take a bit of work (I need to find sheep, a marsh, and a village first) so they aren't that bad. Now that I'm working with Iron more (I have an iron chestplate/boots, with the rest leather) I'm starting to feel ontop of mobs again. The early game balance is set for me. Now to test the late game. The 'Cauldron' age :P

[skrat6009]

...
Anyway, I'm rambling a bit. My main point is pigs. If you can find an area where a bunch of pigs spawned then you're set for an incredibly long time. I would almost say indefinitely because I have never run out of food relying on porkchops but I'm not sure on how quickly they respawn compared to how quickly I consume them. They restore a decent amount of food and also drop up to three per kill which makes a herd of them incredibly valuable. Pigs make HCH too easy.
...

I'm just wondering two things: Since I haven't had any pig encounters since the recent HCH changes, my first question is if pork chops offer any more points to hunger than steaks do? If not, I wouldn't think that pigs make HCH any easier than cows.

If they do offer more nourishment, than I would think that maybe one way to balance this would be to make pigs become hostile the way wolves do when attacked. Real wild pigs are usually fairly hostile anyways. Of course, as I said before, if they are the same nourishment as cows than they really don't need any more balancing than cows do.

[Jakusio]

I recently installed this version and started a new world. I spawned by the coast, next to a large hill, which I dug into to make a home. After killing some sheep and pigs for food, digging up some gravel for later use in a road, and exploring the plains biome in which I resided, I realized that if I wanted to progress into the further stages of the mod, I would have to find a village, which my plains biome lacked. I selected some tools and food to take along with me, and set out into the world. I walked for about 2000 meters over the course of 3 minecraft days, stopping at night to hide from monsters (I had no armor, and would rather not die and have to start over walking) and cook my raw food obtained from various animals along the way. I eventually came across a jungle temple containing bones, rotten flesh, gold, and 5 diamonds, which would later become a sword and pick. From there I continued on, finally coming upon a small desert village with one butchery and one blacksmith, and a farm containing all three of the domesticated crops. I took everything I could carry, including a pair of iron pants and boots, some more gold ingots, 3 iron ingots, and a few apples. I then started the trek back home, which took a considerably smaller amount of time then the one to the village, even considering I traveled half the distance at night (I even found a second village only 1100 meters from my house). I then unloaded my bounty into my chest, requiring a second one to hold everything.

To me, however, it felt kind of cheating to be obtaining diamonds, gold, iron, and armor so early in the world, (even if I did have to walk over a mile to get them all) considering the game changing additions to the mod. Perhaps the frequency of these items appearing in chests could be reduced? Maybe iron nuggets could be added to these chests?
Edit: Darn, looks like someone else kinda had the same idea. Read the whole thread next time, myself!