Considering accepting donations

[FlowerChild]

Hey guys,

While away on my vacation, I've been wrestling with the idea of whether to accept donations for the mod or not.

As many of you know, I've been opposed to doing such things in the past, but what I am currently thinking is that much of the bullshit I have to deal with from the community has slowly been sapping my enthusiasm for creating the mod.

As such, I've been considering alternative methods for helping to revitalize that enthusiasm, and it occurred to me that some small monetary incentive may help in that regard.

Anyways, I just wanted to put it out there for discussion. It's still about a week until I return from my vacation, but I was interested in hearing from you guys as to what you thought about this potential move.

[Tekei]

While I'm of the opinion that you without a doubt deserve something in return for bringing this mod to us, and I really doubt it would have any major effects on how the mod evolves, my current economical situation wouldn't allow for much at all I'm afraid.
With that out of the way I just wanna say: Go for it! If you think it'll help with your motivation then I don't see why you shouldn't accept donations. Donating a coin or two when we can is certainly the least we can do to help you.

[Stormweaver]

I don't see why you shouldn't; worst case scenario if you change your mind you can always donate it to charity or something.

[Durandir]

Do it. The amount of work you put into this mod, paired with how damned great it is makes me really want to donate something to you. Sadly I barely have money to scrape by myself these days. But when I do, I believe I would send a few bucks your way if you opened up for donations.
Heck, you could also make your download link an adf.ly one. More or less all the MC mods I have seen got that, so why not?

[logorouge]

I'm still in favor of a donation button. You clearly deserve that extra pat in the back for all the toys you gave us. :)
Just remember, the sense of entitlement of some users might increase if money is involved.

[BinoAl]

Heck yeah, I'd definitely donate some money :D You probably won't get much, since a large chunk of minecraft players are too young to have a paypal or anything, but you would at least get 5-10$ from me :D

[Fracture]

I still lack a paypal, but when I get one I would donate.

[Elensaar]

You definitely deserve something back for al the work you put into this. And I would be happy to donate as long as I can be assured that it won't influence your design decisions in any way ;)

It's a bit sad that parts of the community are abusive enough that it saps your enthusiasm, and if this could help you regain it I'm all for!

[emmasteadman]

FC, this is the second time you've mentioned about the community sapping your ethusiasm. I assume you mean the other forum and the crap posted on there?
Why don't you simply abandon that forum altogether, close/lock the thread and make this one private, by members only. That way you could be assured that
only ppl you want will have access to it, the ppl that really care about the mod....you could even appoint a moderator to do that part for you.

I realize that reading that other forum must be for you a love/hate thing, but if it's having an overall negative effect, then it's time to do something about it.

If you were to implement such a thing, I would be more than happy to donate, as I'm sure others would too.

[dyrewulf]

I'm not sure how you looked at donations up till now, but I thought it was about keeping the mod clearly on the hobby level for you, not wanting it to become something you were tied to by pressure or anything that might come from the community if money got involved. I think that pressure is there with any mod that has this kind of following in the community, so I can't see how money could change anything.

For me, if I donate to a mod maker, which I have on 3 occasions so far, I'm doing it solely for the work done to this point, on a mod that I clearly think I've gotten that amount of money's worth of enjoyment from. And in time, as the mod continues to progress, I'll consider donating again. Your mod, without a doubt falls into that category for me. When I look at games I've spent considerably more money on (WOW for example), compare that to the $20 I've spent on vMC, and think about the time I've put into MC, and then look at the extra enjoyment I've gotten from MC due to your mod and others, it's not a problem putting down $15-$20 for a donation. It's the least I can do, and in no way do I think that put's any onus on you, the modder to complete the mod, or do stuff that I recommend (unless you're open to that, like SpaceToad is).

From my perspective, if getting something back for your efforts in any way helps you to stay motivated, that's a plus. I don't think anybody looks at a mod that has a donate button as a negative. No one has to donate, clearly, it just gives us who have a good appreciation for what you're doing, and can afford it, the opportunity to contribute in some small way to the mod, and perhaps help to further it's progress, as we all hope to see it continue to thrive.

If you have any worries, I'd simply state that you feel anyone who donates should do so only with the perspective of recompense for the mod as it stands, and that while it helps to motivate you, it's not in any way an assurance that you'll continue to develop the mod in the future. As with any hobby project, interest can wain and real life can intrude. Only the assholes and trolls will bitch at you if you have to take a break or stop working on it, and they will do this regardless of whether you accept donations (and likely won't have donated themselves).

Also, I see some comments already from users who say they don't have money to give you, I think that's not true. A single dollar, contributed by every one of the BTW users would add up quick, and I highly doubt even one of us couldn't manage to scrape up a single dollar for something we've gotten this much enjoyment out of, probably have that much in your spare change lying around. If you've got a PC, and internet access, I don't think you're completely destitute. Still, I respect everyone's right to choose whether they donate or not, it's just I think there's no good excuse unless you simply don't use the mod.

[AmRadTheory]

I'm all for it... donations are inherently voluntary and I have the utmost faith in you, FC, to avoid the "pay for say" phenomenon that some modders seem to be alright with. In fact, while yes, I did buy MC, I would feel a lot better giving you my money than I would giving it to Mojang at this point, but this may be an issue for another topic altogether.

Now get back to your vacation dude...

P.S.
Try not to rag on people for saying they can't afford a donation at this time guys... we really can't pretend to know other people's situations or opinions on the matter, even if we're talking about a single dollar. I realize that might be asking a bit much, but the creativity, intelligence, and friendliness of our community is one of the (among many other) qualities of BTW that really makes it head and shoulders above most of what's out there.

[bmanfoley]

I don't see why not. In fact, I'm not entirely sure why you didn't accept donations in the first place. I'd love to send some money; your work on this mod has given me more hours of gameplay than vMC. You certainly deserve something more than the crappy community feedback from the MC Forums. If you're concerned about seeming selfish or something, I can assure you that you're not. There are people who make mods 1/10 as good as this one, and they accept donations. I personally don't see why anyone would criticize you for being open to the thought. It's not like you're making the mod cost money, or requiring a payment of any sort. If people (like me) want to send you a "thank you" donation for all the hours of hard work you've put into this mod, it seems kinda silly to not let them :P.

Seriously though, it would make my day to give you something back, rather than just downloading the newest release and running off.

[dyrewulf]

I'm all for it... donations are inherently voluntary and I have the utmost faith in you, FC, to avoid the "pay for say" phenomenon that some modders seem to be alright with. In fact, while yes, I did buy MC, I would feel a lot better giving you my money than I would giving it to Mojang at this point, but this may be an issue for another topic altogether.

Now get back to your vacation dude...

P.S.
Try not to rag on people for saying they can't afford a donation at this time guys... we really can't pretend to know other people's situations or opinions on the matter, even if we're talking about a single dollar. I realize that might be asking a bit much, but the creativity, intelligence, and friendliness of our community is one of the (among many other) qualities of BTW that really makes it head and shoulders above most of what's out there.

This is a discussion topic about donations, and whether people can actually afford to do it is relevant. I don't think it's ragging on anybody to point out what a thin excuse that is. If you're a kid with no income, parents might actually look at donating for a mod, as a mark of responsibility if the kid explains his reasons. I'm sure they throw a lot of money away on their kids for much more wasteful things than this. I think more often than not it's easy to say, I don't have any money, when in fact most people just like to get things for nothing. That's the nature of mods which are freely given, no doubt, but I think people who say that should think harder about it, and whether they're being honest with themselves. Maybe they think a dollar isn't much, but it adds up if everybody does it.

It bugged me when the first handful of comments for Flower's inquiry were: I'd love to donate but I'm broke, I'll do it when I have money. Those kinds of comments would be discouraging to me, if I were Flower. Broke, you may be, but unless you're living on the street or in a hut or something, a dollar isn't that hard to come by. I doubt that's the case for anybody using BTW.

[FlowerChild]

Nah man, it's cool and I haven't found the responses discouraging at all.

I'm largely interested in how people are reacting to my change in stance, rather than trying to figure out how much money I would gain from it :)

So far, no one seems to object, which is a rather encouraging sign for me.

As for the source of my despair over the community, I think it largely came from the vMC forums as someone suggested, but was more the result of the Yogaboo invasion rather than anything else. I think there was an element of "wow, so this is what it means to have a successful mod...no thanks" to it that has since faded but has been lurking in the back of my mind ever since. The vMC forums really aren't bad enough these days for me to feel that I need to avoid them, but I may reevaluate that stance once I release the next big feature I have planned, as it's sure to create another wave of mass-popularity for the mod.

One thing that I will note about this change to donations however, is that it will likely mean that I'll be taking down all my videos that I've already made for the mod.

Being a strictly non-profit mod before this point, I felt comfortable using copyrighted music under the terms of "fair-use" by non-profit organizations.

However, if I am even accepting donations, I feel that starts to tread on rather shakey ground in terms of copyright law, as I can no longer really argue that I am strictly non-profit.

But I do feel that enough people now make videos about the mod that it will hardly be missed. I haven't even released videos for the past few new features I've put out (partly because of the above), and no one has really complained about it. If anything, I kinda like the aspect of initial discovery that has gone along with me releasing features with very limited instructions over the past few releases. It's a different approach for the mod than what I used to take, to be sure, but I think it's a pretty cool one in its own right.

[Mason11987]

Nah man, it's cool and I haven't found the responses discouraging at all.

I'm largely interested in how people are reacting to my change in stance, rather than trying to figure out how much money I would gain from it :)

So far, no one seems to object, which is a rather encouraging sign for me.

As for the source of my despair over the community, I think it largely came from the vMC forums as someone suggested, but was more the result of the Yogaboo invasion rather than anything else. I think there was an element of "wow, so this is what it means to have a successful mod...no thanks" to it that has since faded but has been lurking in the back of my mind ever since. The vMC forums really aren't bad enough these days for me to feel that I need to avoid them, but I may reevaluate that stance once I release the next big feature I have planned, as it's sure to create another wave of mass-popularity for the mod.

One thing that I will note about this change to donations however, is that it will likely mean that I'll be taking down all my videos that I've already made for the mod.

Being a strictly non-profit mod before this point, I felt comfortable using copyrighted music under the terms of "fair-use" by non-profit organizations.

However, if I am even accepting donations, I feel that starts to tread on rather shakey ground in terms of copyright law, as I can no longer really argue that I am strictly non-profit.

But I do feel that enough people now make videos about the mod that it will hardly be missed. I haven't even released videos for the past few new features I've put out (partly because of the above), and no one has really complained about it. If anything, I kinda like the aspect of initial discovery that has gone along with me releasing features with very limited instructions over the past few releases. It's a different approach for the mod than what I used to take, to be sure, but I think it's a pretty cool one in its own right.

I don't see a problem with you accepting donations. It's pretty common practice among a lot of mod makers and I'm sure it would help encourage you to stay interested.

That being said I really like the videos you've made and I hope that you can make some new ones, even without music. They're very direct and a good show of features.

[Fracture]

It's not that I don't have money-- I'd be more than happy to donate 20-30$ to FC for bringing Minecraft back for me.

The only issue I currently have is that I lack a paypal account (or a card of any sort). Mailing cash to FC might be a little troublesome (and creepy) so I wouldn't really be able to donate until I get a debit card and a paypal.

[Brethern]

Nah man, it's cool and I haven't found the responses discouraging at all.

I'm largely interested in how people are reacting to my change in stance, rather than trying to figure out how much money I would gain from it :)

So far, no one seems to object, which is a rather encouraging sign for me.

As for the source of my despair over the community, I think it largely came from the vMC forums as someone suggested, but was more the result of the Yogaboo invasion rather than anything else. I think there was an element of "wow, so this is what it means to have a successful mod...no thanks" to it that has since faded but has been lurking in the back of my mind ever since. The vMC forums really aren't bad enough these days for me to feel that I need to avoid them, but I may reevaluate that stance once I release the next big feature I have planned, as it's sure to create another wave of mass-popularity for the mod.

One thing that I will note about this change to donations however, is that it will likely mean that I'll be taking down all my videos that I've already made for the mod.

Being a strictly non-profit mod before this point, I felt comfortable using copyrighted music under the terms of "fair-use" by non-profit organizations.

However, if I am even accepting donations, I feel that starts to tread on rather shakey ground in terms of copyright law, as I can no longer really argue that I am strictly non-profit.

But I do feel that enough people now make videos about the mod that it will hardly be missed. I haven't even released videos for the past few new features I've put out (partly because of the above), and no one has really complained about it. If anything, I kinda like the aspect of initial discovery that has gone along with me releasing features with very limited instructions over the past few releases. It's a different approach for the mod than what I used to take, to be sure, but I think it's a pretty cool one in its own right.

You do realize that if you are going to open up a acct for donations people are going to take this as a opportunity to use the

I donated you have to use my idea, line.

[Glox]

You do realize that if you are going to open up a acct for donations people are going to take this as a opportunity to use the

I donated you have to use my idea, line.

instapermaban?

[AmRadTheory]

I'm all for it... donations are inherently voluntary and I have the utmost faith in you, FC, to avoid the "pay for say" phenomenon that some modders seem to be alright with. In fact, while yes, I did buy MC, I would feel a lot better giving you my money than I would giving it to Mojang at this point, but this may be an issue for another topic altogether.

Now get back to your vacation dude...

P.S.
Try not to rag on people for saying they can't afford a donation at this time guys... we really can't pretend to know other people's situations or opinions on the matter, even if we're talking about a single dollar. I realize that might be asking a bit much, but the creativity, intelligence, and friendliness of our community is one of the (among many other) qualities of BTW that really makes it head and shoulders above most of what's out there.

This is a discussion topic about donations, and whether people can actually afford to do it is relevant. I don't think it's ragging on anybody to point out what a thin excuse that is. If you're a kid with no income, parents might actually look at donating for a mod, as a mark of responsibility if the kid explains his reasons. I'm sure they throw a lot of money away on their kids for much more wasteful things than this. I think more often than not it's easy to say, I don't have any money, when in fact most people just like to get things for nothing. That's the nature of mods which are freely given, no doubt, but I think people who say that should think harder about it, and whether they're being honest with themselves. Maybe they think a dollar isn't much, but it adds up if everybody does it.

It bugged me when the first handful of comments for Flower's inquiry were: I'd love to donate but I'm broke, I'll do it when I have money. Those kinds of comments would be discouraging to me, if I were Flower. Broke, you may be, but unless you're living on the street or in a hut or something, a dollar isn't that hard to come by. I doubt that's the case for anybody using BTW.

"I think more often than not it's easy to say, I don't have any money, when in fact most people just like to get things for nothing."
That sums it up perfectly.

[Ferrus.Manus]

You do realize that if you are going to open up a acct for donations people are going to take this as a opportunity to use the

I donated you have to use my idea, line.

Just put the disclaimer "Donating money does not mean I will listen to your suggestion" or "Donating money does not entitle you to any privileges" or something along those line.

[Triskelli]

Hey guys,

I've been considering alternative methods for helping to revitalize that enthusiasm, and it occurred to me that some small monetary incentive may help in that regard.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not sure that a "monetary incentive" would help create enthusiasm for the mod.

Do you deserve some fiscal compensation? Definitely. Would I make a donation? Absolutely. The wolfaboos and Yogaboos and all the people with IQs under 20 can start to get to you, make you wonder what the point to this is if you're not being appreciated for what you're doing in your spare time and out of the kindness of your heart. You're a professional, Goddammit, and you deserve to be treated as such.

So donations seem like a good idea, right? Money talks, and whatever our dollars and cents have to say is probably far more intelligent than our comments and demands. A donation pool would be an unbiased indicator to our appreciation of the mod, measured in nickels and dimes.

The problem is that we walk a fine line here. How much money are you expecting this donation to collect? If you get too little, then you may become more disheartened than before. But if you get more than you were expecting... well, then Better Than Wolves stops being a hobby and turns into an obligation. A job. And honestly, I don't want this fantastic addition to Minecraft to ever feel like a job.

Remember, Better than Wolves started as a vision. You knew how to vastly improve a game that we all loved. This has since morphed into a passion, a crusade, a mission from God. There's an idea in your head and it demands to be brought into the physical world. You've got it all planned out, and we know that you can turn that dream into a reality.

I know you deserve a little extra for your troubles, and I intend to pay my share; I'm not arguing against that. I just don't think that you should rely on donations as a motivating factor. It's not why you started making the mod, and it would add yet another layer of obligation, instead of the motivation you need.




Wow, that's alot of words. Let me see if I can sum up my ideas for the people that skipped all that.

TLDR: I think you deserve some donation money, but I don't think that money by itself can motivate you to maintain a hobby you've lost interest in.

[Tekei]

I'm both offended and surprised. Offended by the fact that people question that I can't afford to donate (in my current situation) and implying that I have to be a kid with parents who refuse to pay for me. I am more than happy to explain my rather dull situation privately to anyone interested enough but I feel like this thread isn't the place.
As for being surprised it's mostly because I'm not easily offended so the fact that I'm reacting this strongly to a few comments is surprising in it self.

As mentioned, I think it's a good idea to accept donations if it helps keeping FC motivated (as opposed to skewing his priorities as he mentioned in the interview) but at this time I won't be able to afford it myself. That isn't saying I'll never pay, but currently I simply don't have the money for it and there's nothing more to it.

P.S: I really hope that my english is good enough to get that message across...

[Danyo]

I don't see any problems with having an option for donations, I never really did. As long as it's optional and pushed into your face all the time like some people do, donation buttons have never bothered me in the past. I've donated to people before that never even mentioned they had a donate button, but had it just sitting on their site/thread/whatever, just for the people that wanted to donate.

[Battlecat]

I believe you are more than justified in setting up your mod for donations or .adfly links. Mods with far less depth and structure have done so, there's no reason why you shouldn't, especially if you are short on enthusiasm right now. I'm very sorry to hear the community has you down still, I hope the rest of your vacation helps continue to clear your head.

Have fun!

[grimper12341]

If you do it I'll definitely be donating you something ^^

As for the videos, couldn't you just mute them? D:
It's interesting seeing what you do with your own mod, and your cynical sense of humor really comes through xD

This has since morphed into a passion, a crusade, a mission from God.

What god >.>