I think that Steel and the Composite Bow is overpowered.

[kegan187]

I posted this on the thread, but thought it would be better if I posted it on the forum.



Before people start posting comments disagreeing with me just because they don't want FlowerChild to change steel, please read the entire post. Yesterday, I started a new world with BTW and didn't even think about of getting steel. For the first few hours, I progressed through the tech tree until I had a working elevator, saw, 2 millstones, and a cauldron with 2 switches to toggle the fire(This switch didn't work yet) and the bellows behind it. After I had all of that done, I went down into a cave and found diamond. So, I started to get obsidian to make a portal to the nether, without even thinking about steel. So, after I had my first working portal and went through, I remembered about ground netherrack, hellfire dust, and eventually, steel. I got excited because I realised that I could start to get steel, as I had about 3 stacks of iron and a cave system worth of coal. I mined as much netherrack as I could and then went back to make steel. The total number was 32-40 steel. With that, I crafted a full set of plate armor and steel tools. When I went out to test it, however, I was disappointed. It made combat too easy, as you could 1 hit literally any mob already in the game. The only real threat that I still had was skeletons, but I made a Composite bow and some BroadHead Arrows and they were as easy to kill as pigs. Steel was easier to get than diamond, and it was stronger and more powerful. And yes, I know it is possible to get diamond within the first 30 minutes of your new world, but I mean in the long run steel is easier to get. Diamond can spawn once per chunk, in as big veins as 7. Iron can spawn 20 times per chunk, in as veins as big as 8. Coal can spawn 20 times per chunk, in veins as big as 16. So, with those numbers, really. Is it easier to find diamonds, or is it easier to make steel?

Also, for people who are not aware of how much stronger steel is than diamond, a steel pickaxe has 2250 uses and a harvest level of 12, while the diamond pickaxe has 1561 uses and a harvest level of 8.

[Camerinthus]

By the time you have all the tech-tree items, however, you will likely have diamond.


Steel, I figure, mainly makes you waste a bunch of time mining/doing mundane activities so that you can get back to configuring giant automated systems.

[Dante80]

Kegan, steel and the compound bow can be overpowered only if you view them as THE endgame goal, and scramble to acquire them quickly.

The magic of BTW imo is not that it makes the diamond loop last longer. Its that it eliminates it as a concept altogether. ;)

[kegan187]

By the time you have all the tech-tree items, however, you will likely have diamond.

Yes, I know you are likely to have diamond by the time you have reached the level in the tech-tree where you can make steel. What I am saying is that, when you do reach that level, you basically don't even need diamond anymore. In fact, I have not used diamond since I first acquired steel.

[kegan187]

Kegan, steel and the compound bow can be overpowered only if you view them as THE endgame goal, and scramble to acquire them quickly.

The magic of BTW imo is not that it makes the diamond loop last longer. Its that it eliminates it as a concept altogether. ;)

I didn't scamble to acquire them quickly, I just progressed up the tech tree like I normally do and then got steel. I didn't even think of steel until I built my first portal.

[logorouge]

Yep, steel equipment is powerful. Yup, you can stack lots of steel and never run out of super tools ever again. But consider this: FlowerChild will soon release the next branch of the tech tree in which steel will probably be one of the primary resources. The tools might not get weaker, but our reserves of steel are sure to be drained by the coming technology. If worse comes to worse, FC can always readjust the creation of steel to make it more resource intensive.

[MagusUnion]

Yep, steel equipment is powerful. Yup, you can stack lots of steel and never run out of super tools ever again. But consider this: FlowerChild will soon release the next branch of the tech tree in which steel will probably be one of the primary resources. The tools might not get weaker, but our reserves of steel are sure to be drained by the coming technology. If worse comes to worse, FC can always readjust the creation of steel to make it more resource intensive.

Unless other mods simply trump that aspect...

[grimper12341]

Wait a second, I'm a flying turtle now? When did that happen? XD

Lol! I believe I promoted you for being the first voice of reason when the Turntable was overpowered.

There's probably nothing I respect more than someone who correctly calls me on it when I fuck up ;)

Don't even think about it. The work required to get steel tools justifies their usefulness anyway.

So what I can dig a bit faster and not have to make as many repair trips. The real work people do in their worlds is the creative thinking (redstone for example, you will spend 5 times longer testing components and thinking logically than you will digging out the cave you're putting it in). Battosay and such doesn't have all those epic creations because he can dig faster and live a bit longer than people can in vMC with diamond.

[gftweek]

It depends on your play style as to whether they are overpowered or not, after all once you get an iron pick the only reason to replace it with diamond or steel is speed and durability, you don't need to use them. Likewise you can just run around punching mobs while wearing no armour, they aren't smart enough to gang up on you properly if you are sensible.

The advantage of the steel tools/weapons/armour is that you don't have to bother with things that took a while before, they are a reward of having to slog your way to this level, so you can eliminate some of the mundane aspects. If you think the weapons or armour are overpowered for your play style you of course have the option to not use them, conversely you could just use SPC to turn off damage and turn on instant mining.

Adding them was more about being able to ignore the annoyance that the mobs can pose, and as mentioned being able to gather resources or make space without having to carry as many picks and spend time doing mundane mining.

[MagusUnion]

Actually, I think I know what the problem is... it's not that Steel weapons are overpowered, it's that you need..

STRONGER MOBS!!!!

[Fracture]

I am hoping we get stronger mobs with 1.8, but I think only one change needs to be made to steel-- It should be more resource intensive to make, imo. That opinion may change with the upcoming age, but given how easy it is to get right now and how powerful it is, I'd like to see steel either require more resources to make, or an extra step introduced to increase how many steel bars are needed to make the tools.

Hafts are a nice step toward proper balance, especially with the crucible repairs, but in light of said repairs, steel should be a little harder to get or to craft with as far as I'm concerned.

I like the power, but not the ease.

[mr.creeper]

You do realize that it's highly likely Flower will give a new use to diamond right?

And yeah, we do need better mobs :P
Hopefully Endermen will take care of that...

[Fracture]

A new use for diamonds wouldn't really fix the balance of steel's power compared to its current cost/difficulty.

[mr.creeper]

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Forgot to qoute

merinthus wrote:
By the time you have all the tech-tree items, however, you will likely have diamond.

Yes, I know you are likely to have diamond by the time you have reached the level in the tech-tree where you can make steel. What I am saying is that, when you do reach that level, you basically don't even need diamond anymore. In fact, I have not used diamond since I first acquired steel.

Was responding to that bit

But i don't think steel is overpowered because of the simple fact if you ever actually sit down to do some mining or excavate an area- it's a pain in the ass. Steel tools take away at least some of the pain away. As for the steel sword/ composite bow-I have no opinions on that one since haven't used it much. My whole area is completely covered in torches so no aggresive mobs can spawn.

[Adjudicator79]

One of the elements that really strikes me from this is the fact that:

After I had all of that done, I went down into a cave and found diamond.

I started up a new world to run through the full tech tree post 2.93/4. I just happened to hit a world where I struggled to find steel and coal. I've still only got about 25 gold, after nearly a week of 2 hours/night of play. And I didn't get my first diamond until 5 days in. The only reason I had buckets was I stumbled across two dungeons on days 3 and 4. And building a portal with two buckets to carry lava and no diamond took forever.

You managed to fill your resource supply chain easily. It took me days of playing to even get enough to justify starting to craft steel tools. Of course, that also meant I spent far more time putting together the true elements of the age of wood, so I was happy with that (something that would not have been true in vM).

I understand your point based on your particular experience. But it also sounds like you managed to walk into the perfect conditions to support rapid access to steel. Maybe my experience is different, but I didn't have that same access and steel feels like a perfectly legitimate reward for the amount of time and effort I put into acquiring it.

Just my $0.02.

[Stormweaver]

I'll admit that the process involved is a bit easy at the moment, but I'd hardly say that steel is overpowered. It can one-hit kill mobs? Give you large amounts of defence? By the time you have it you probably have a cobble bunker/nice house and fences protecting you from mobs, a mob trap to supply you with resources and a pet creeper you've walled in somewhere and punch when you're feeling mean.

I can't see the problem with making diamonds redundant. All things considered, gold has been in vMC how long? It has 2 uses, one of which is almost never used unless you use somnia - another mod. And even gold makes more sense in tool making than strapping 3 diamonds to a stick and being able to carve your way through the bowels of the earth.

I'm fairly sure that between the new freedom FC has for creating new items and the process involved in making the hafts for steel tools, that extra steps are going to be added in somewhere with the new age. But till then, I'm finally able to stomach mining enough redstone to make huge contraptions, so I feel the reward is more than just.

[Robilar]

You should also consider the target experience level of the player when the tech tree is/was designed. I no longer consider creepers a threat, armored or no, armed or no, but I also have played enough Minecraft to know exactly how to fight them. Does that mean Notch should buff Creepers up to 30 hearts and up their damage so they one hit kill? No, because a new or average player would stand no chance at all with something that big coming at them.

BTW has grown to be big enough to consider the time required to discover exactly how everything works as part of the progression. A new player to BTW might take as long building a hemp farm as some of us might take to get a stack of steel and some kind of auto-farm. I know it personally took me three tries at hemp farming to get it down pat.

If you consider it, a person has to find hemp seeds, figure out the conditions to plant hemp, likely making a small fenced off outside garden, then grind them by hand to make a windmill. After getting the windmill, it's linking your mill stone up to that and scouring some leather, which in turn you can tan after you have both found wolves and a means to heat the cauldron, either through simply burning wood or gaining access to the nether.

The tanned leather leads to belts, which gives you saws, turntables, and bellows. The turntable and bellows gives you stoked fire if you've gotten to the nether, possibly giving you waterwheels, and the turntable itself gives you the ability to make the crucible required for steel. After a trip to the nether and a potentially very dangerous time during the refining process, you can finally actually make steel through the culmination of *all* of these systems.

Or you could make a stone pick, mine some iron, make an iron pick, and mine some diamond in the mineshaft that took you five minutes to dig down far enough.

The time required to get aaaalll the way through the tech tree for someone who doesn't know *exactly* what to do is incredibly lengthy. I, personally, really only care for armor for falls. I'm more likely to have taken damage because I fell 5 blocks instead of an arrow to the back or a creeper falling on me. The Longsword is in the same boat, just makes creepers trivial, which at this point is a complete boon. A Steve this advanced to be able to scratch the surface of the powers of hell itself really shouldn't be too terribly concerned with large green phalli that like to hop up and down when they seem him atop his embattled wall.

Yes, the Bow is a bit easier to make, but still requires glue, which at least requires everything except the crucible. You still need everything else in the way, which if my ascension through the tech tree was any indicator, should be more than Vanilla Minecraft had to offer me.

TL:DR There's so much tech between you and Steel that a new/intermediate player to BTW will take a loooong time to get there.

Edit: On the point of Diamonds. FC has surpassed most of Vanilla Minecraft as far as Tech advancement in a lot of areas, Diamond was bound to be outpaced. Diamonds are also no longer invalid, as the Lens recipe *will* use Diamond. I was always very hesitant (And usually never did) to use Iron or Diamond, as they were limited in quantity (I used stone instead). With steel? I can re-use to my heart's content, and everything consumed is renewable.

[FlowerChild]

Hey guys, just doing a quick stop-by, but I wanted to ask one thing about this thread:

I can get why folks consider Steel to be overpowered (even if I don't agree), but wanted to ask why the Composite Bow was brought into this discussion.

All the bow does is extend the range to 1.5X that of a regular bow. Not sure why anyone would argue that as being overpowered.

[Mrchaim]

It's more the ammunition for it - Broadhead arrows kill everything and anything except for ghasts in two hits, i believe. They're certainly harder to make, but it's not _that_ hard to have a good stock of them, nor the aim to use them well - at which point they trivialize the already limited challenge of minecraft combat.

This effect is only worsened by the Steel Sword being able to one shot anything, and the sheer protective strength of Steel armor. - Since having all that equipped, the sole time I've died was in the nether when a Pigman hurled me off a very tall cliff - and that was because i never even realized it was sneaking up on me as i was strip-mining the nether.

[Adjudicator79]

I think the OP's point was that it gives you the range on skellies, the only mob he felt still threatened after the application of steel to combat.

Of course, all of this will be moot tomorrow, since Notch is hyper-powering the bow compared to the compound bow and broadhead arrows.

[grimper12341]

Actually after watching the 1.8 trailer, the charged bow doesn't seem to be any stronger than a normal shot. Possibly the charging is just for extra range.

[Adjudicator79]

In the PAX video, Notch said that it was more range and critical hits (the little sparkles denote critical hits on weapon attacks).

[Glox]

I don't think steel is overpowered, but more that mobs are underpowered. The increased strength of steel is more than justified by the amount of work and time needed to walk through the tech tree. It's just that MC combat is super easy - you only die to mobs if you get surprised by them or if they outnumber you - and even then. And i like it that way because of the way they spawn - everywhere. They must not be too strong if they can spawn everywhere with enough darkness or it would be just plain annoying. Now if there was a mob that would only spawn in certain clearly noticable areas (think aether dungeons), that mob could be made much stronger and challenging without pissing everyone off in the process and then steel would be perfect for the job.

[Camerinthus]

By the time you have all the tech-tree items, however, you will likely have diamond.

Yes, I know you are likely to have diamond by the time you have reached the level in the tech-tree where you can make steel. What I am saying is that, when you do reach that level, you basically don't even need diamond anymore. In fact, I have not used diamond since I first acquired steel.

And how often did you use iron tools after you got diamond ones?

For me? Never.

[Sajuuk]

I like steel stuff. Actually, no, I like the functionality of steel.
If steel didn't exist yet I would use iron armor and tools just because I could smelt and recover them. This is how I look at steel and why I haven't thought to complain about it's potency for equipment. There are other mods where tools have special abilities instead of just increased speed or durability, and for a little while I thought I'd prefer that instead of raised stats from diamond to steel- then after a few dozen re-forged pickaxes I thought that'd do just fine.

There's something about that which just does it for me, recovering metal. It makes me feel connected to what I've earned and like my bunker is my castle. Then I hear the whining of dogs sealed in a dark stone tomb shitting themselves in terror and it kinda breaks the mood but hey, it was kinda weird to begin with.

Broadheads are a little trickier I think. Steve first had three sticks jammed together with some spider web and now we're working with composites and hand made steel arrow heads? It should be a whole lot better. It's like it's either overpowered for being a true improvement or it's a lot of work for no real improvement, and FC doesn't catch a break.

I think the steel gear makes sense. The question is does it fit and is it fun. If it doesn't and isn't to some people, then we'll have to wait and see what else FC has planned because it'll probably be thought out, reasoned, and improved.