The Trio: BTW + BC + IC^2

[MagusUnion]

I understand alot from where you are coming from. When I installed IC the very first time back in 1.4, I did notice the overpowerful mix of electronics and machinery that IndustrialCraft, in general, will sport when playing it. Even as a stand-alone mod, the gameplay of IC is so changing that it makes vMC play almost purely primitive... like walking out of a cave with stone weapons and into Fallout lands by picking up power armor... Quite a jump to say the least...

But the largest flaw that I do find with Industrial Craft is that nothing will work without power. You HAVE to have a constant flow of EU into your tech in order to squeeze any sort of usefulness out of it. Drills hit like paper uncharged, and Mining Lasers hit like sticks against monsters when they deplete in juice. Despite the powerful advantage of the IC tech, you have to have powerful energy generation just to subsidize it...

Which, in some cases, makes BTW tech superior, because the wooden tech can be gathered/collected/harvested in the smallest amount of effort. Which ironically, will yield quite powerful mechanical constructs that operate under very simplistic circumstances... It's this kind of tech that shows a slower, yet realistic, progression of technological advancement of not only the MC player, but our human technology as a whole. Sure, having to constantly build tools just to keep up your settlement is a huge pain, but it does show where resource reward comes from in a micro sense of resource application. It's also the main reason I was so attracted to the mod as well, because it showed a way for me to operate mechanical feats of engineering, without 'energy-whoring' my items half the time...

So yeah, I can understand how you can see IC as being too 'overpowered' when it comes to what the mod/items can do, but let's not forget the huge costs IC items come at as well. And tbh, I do think people neglect this principle of resource cost when it comes to mods and minecraft play. I'll probably get around to doing a Minecraft video about that soon (since it fits the other mod I wish to show-case as well, lol...)

[MagusUnion]

Well in IC² the real sword replacement is supposed to be that nano sword thingy which is totally underpowered. I guess the IC² guys wanted to make it not as powerfull as the btw steel sword which one shots evertything, but by not going that little bit till the end they just made a sword that needs to be activated, and if it is, it consumes all its energy in a matter of a few minutes. The Chainsaw on the other hand two shots everything that matters as well and has next to no power consumption and can be powered by a bat pack. But I guess there is not much space for balance when a diamond sword already two shots creepers, skeletons and zombies. You either go for insta kill or not :).

I'm sorry, Minecraft =/= World of Warcraft... if you are looking for THAT kind of balance, please go back to it (no offence)... the combat system pre 1.8 is not ment to be a combat encounter system. In fact, Terraria has a much better system of combat/gear balance in that respect, but doesn't offer the same resource collection utilities as Notch's game does...

so no, This isn't the kind of game you are looking for.. (in terms of item balance...)

[Miner7747]

[quote="MagusUnion" *snip*[/quote]

i agree with you on most points,especially the last.recently on these forums in off-topic i saw a thread about the equivalent exchange mod.
everyone said it was OP without looking at the recipies,and the costs of usage for the items. now,all of these items require AT LEAST 4 diamond blocks,among other stuff,to make.

[MagusUnion]

i agree with you on most points,especially the last.recently on these forums in off-topic i saw a thread about the equivalent exchange mod.
everyone said it was OP without looking at the recipies,and the costs of usage for the items. now,all of these items require AT LEAST 4 diamond blocks,among other stuff,to make.

It's bad when even I think it's OP... not as a stand alone mod, ofc, but the fact that if you combine it with buildcraft, or even IC, you become a god in that game... Cobble is piss easy to mine, and I honestly doubt 512 cobble is a high enough number to make it equal to diamond. Plus, it's too focus on diamond itself, neglecting all other items in the process. Which to me, is kinda bad design overall because it makes the player think 'diamonds or GTFO'.. In all honestly, diamonds are my LEAST used item in the game due to both their rarity and their impracticality. Usually, whenever I need diamonds, I need them for IC, and it has industrial grade alternatives that are more effective to utilize than 'risky' diamond hunting...

[Miner7747]

i agree with you on most points,especially the last.recently on these forums in off-topic i saw a thread about the equivalent exchange mod.
everyone said it was OP without looking at the recipies,and the costs of usage for the items. now,all of these items require AT LEAST 4 diamond blocks,among other stuff,to make.

It's bad when even I think it's OP... not as a stand alone mod, ofc, but the fact that if you combine it with buildcraft, or even IC, you become a god in that game... Cobble is piss easy to mine, and I honestly doubt 512 cobble is a high enough number to make it equal to diamond. Plus, it's too focus on diamond itself, neglecting all other items in the process. Which to me, is kinda bad design overall because it makes the player think 'diamonds or GTFO'.. In all honestly, diamonds are my LEAST used item in the game due to both their rarity and their impracticality. Usually, whenever I need diamonds, I need them for IC, and it has industrial grade alternatives that are more effective to utilize than 'risky' diamond hunting...

I agree with you on all these points,i will never use equivalent exchange,but you should still look at the price of items before determining if the're OP or not.

[Whisp]

I agree that it gets to powerful when combined with BC oder BTW, but that's definitely not the fault of the Equivalent Exchange mod.
Since yoy say 512 cobble is a too small number for one diamond, a diamond pickaxe suffices for 1,5k uses, which means if you harvest all cobblestone with it, you have merely enough to make another pickaxe after it.
As I was mining with EE, it definitely was a pleasure not having to throw out the cobblestone regularly, but to have the stuff in the inventory automatically reduced to useful ores. And it took me quite long to get only that ring which automatically converts the blocks.

If you want to judge EE, you have to do it on itself. It's definitely an endgame mod, useful long after you have the the diamond reset. So it's a way to keep you motivated and another bonus to spending time digging out space for huge bases. And you're definitely digging by hand, the mining amulett is cool, but it ate through my glowstone stack like nothing when I tried it, and is definitely not self sustaining with the blocks it mines (although the glowstone aggregator is probably a bit cheap although relatively slow). And the walking on lava or water abilities are definitely a goal to work towards to, I always wanted to take a walk on the huge lava lakes in the nether. :)

tl;dr: EE gets only really overpowered when combined with mods like BC or BTW, that can automatically mass harvest blocks.

[Brethern]

i agree with you on most points,especially the last.recently on these forums in off-topic i saw a thread about the equivalent exchange mod.
everyone said it was OP without looking at the recipies,and the costs of usage for the items. now,all of these items require AT LEAST 4 diamond blocks,among other stuff,to make.

It's bad when even I think it's OP... not as a stand alone mod, ofc, but the fact that if you combine it with buildcraft, or even IC, you become a god in that game... Cobble is piss easy to mine, and I honestly doubt 512 cobble is a high enough number to make it equal to diamond. Plus, it's too focus on diamond itself, neglecting all other items in the process. Which to me, is kinda bad design overall because it makes the player think 'diamonds or GTFO'.. In all honestly, diamonds are my LEAST used item in the game due to both their rarity and their impracticality. Usually, whenever I need diamonds, I need them for IC, and it has industrial grade alternatives that are more effective to utilize than 'risky' diamond hunting...

You have to remember something, mod authors have their own view on how MC should be played, EE is made for people who want to consume everything, BTW IC are made for people who want to rig things up. I'm sure that sometime a guy will come along and figure out a way to make all these mods fit together perfectly.

[MagusUnion]

(so much rage...)

Well, I wasn't trying to diss EE flat out... I get that it has a nice following, and makes sense as a stand-alone...

But I do stand by my statements of disagreeing with the design of the mod. Utilizing all the items you have at your disposal is one thing, but forcing such a heavy usage on one particular item, and sacrificing the usefulness of all other items in result, is kinda what turns me off with EE. Sure, it's fair and balanced in it's own way, but I don't want to have to constantly NEED diamonds in order to use it. Plus, another thing I think the mod doesn't account for is the fact that all those items and reactions should cost energy to use. I get that, item speaking, it equates out, but it doesn't factor the thermodynamics of, say, harvesting an entire field of grass, or the energy needed for summoning a lane of fire... Reactions like that need more than just the items themselves to work like this, and I find it weird for it to just be 'lolsupaitem' then 'lolharvestted' all of a sudden, just because you gathered X (where X is a stupidly large number) of cobblestone just to obtain...

Or perhapes my age is causing me to lose my willingly sense of disbelieve more quickly than I want to admit... lol

Still, I wasn't trying to be mean about the mod... I just find the design of EE to be a bit jaded to just collecting one item. Which, for me, makes me think that the player is forced into a 'diamond arms race' just so he can get very-very-very-high end items, which isn't exactly resourceful at all...

[Miner7747]

Just tried EE recently actualy, it's fine on its own,but i hate the"Diamond or GTFO"Aspect of it.
Btw, out of natural instinct,i started hoarding iron ore. :D
Probably affected my progress.

[MagusUnion]

Just tried EE recently actualy, it's fine on its own,but i hate the"Diamond or GTFO"Aspect of it.
Btw, out of natural instinct,i started hoarding iron ore. :D
Probably affected my progress.

Been playing IC too much, LOL....

I'm in the midst of re-configuring my files again as well... I may do one last video on my current world before going fresh on a new world to display GeoCraft (since the mod creator for that mod failed to create a damn config. file for his bloody items)... Frustrating, but I want to show some realistic geology in my work and teach a bit of that alongside the mod work that I do in MC...

But if the amount of conflicts piles to high, I probably will abandon the idea till the guy updates his mod (or at least, answers my damn msg)...

Edit: 13 conflicts total... 3 of which are item ID conflicts (1 that's BTW related), but beyond that, they are mostly MoreAi/Redpower/minor mod conflicts thankfully... About the only thing I worry now is that will IC respond to the ore changes that the GeoCraft mod does to base files.. hopefully it will, but I'll keep a completely backup .minecraft folder just in case, lol...

[MagusUnion]

Oh, and on a damn somewhat related note... damn killerbeez changed his whole site to promote ALL of HIS stuff, and shoved the Minecraft Server community content into some back corner somewhere. Looks like I know what I'm not doing when IC^2 SMP comes out... >:(

[Miner7747]

Lol yeah,too much IC

Geocraft is really cool,
I've been toying around with it since release,and it's nice to get a bit of realism.

[Miner7747]

Oh, and on a damn somewhat related note... damn killerbeez changed his whole site to promote ALL of HIS stuff, and shoved the Minecraft Server community content into some back corner somewhere. Looks like I know what I'm not doing when IC^2 SMP comes out... >:(

I'll still be on,but yeah,that sorta sucks.

I'll try to get a reason for this though,we were fine before.

[MagusUnion]

I'll still be on,but yeah,that sorta sucks.

I'll try to get a reason for this though,we were fine before.

It's the fact that he wants to hardcore sponsor his material now that he's a 'YouTube' hit... I didn't pay him so that he could fund his 'killerbeezINC' crap, I paid for secure server access for the industrialcraft mod. Which was a server that, originally wasn't centered around a single person's egotism and totalitarian sense of control on it...

/end rant

But yes... GeoCraft... I'll do the changes after my recording and such... probably will coincide well with a restart to show examples as to what I was referring to in terms of the concepts from my videos...

[Miner7747]

Alright,great! I do like that granite layer, makes it so you cant go too deep whithout iron.

Btw,why dont you ask him why he switched sites anyway?he might have his own reasons.
Although if it's what you said that applies,thank goodness for my epic ramz,i'll be needing them.

[MagusUnion]

Alright,great! I do like that granite layer, makes it so you cant go too deep whithout iron.

Btw,why dont you ask him why he switched sites anyway?he might have his own reasons.
Although if it's what you said that applies,thank goodness for my epic ramz,i'll be needing them.

I'd rather not, seeing as how he's never seen eye-to-eye with me ever since I started playing on his server... I also believe that's why he was so opposed to the 'Nether Lava Energy' idea he had because it conflicted with 'his idea' for the server...

But yeah, if you can sponsor a server... by all means do so... I'd rather not have to go through 'moneybeez' anymore just to enjoy modded SMP play... lol

Edit: Could you do me a favor and test if this works, plz? If it does, I'd be very overjoyed as to merging mods will be easier now... http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/366 ... -update-3/

[Miner7747]

Well,if enough people want a new server,i'll see what i can do.
I currently dont have the money for server hosting,but due to my awsome computer specs,
I can host a server for >16 hours before reset,and it could hold up to 30 people,which is pretty good
For a home server. It would have to be hamachi though.

Or,we could just go on another IC server.

Anyways,for now,i'll be making an elevator in BTW.

Btw,i'll test that ID thing later..

[Haidaes]

Well in IC² the real sword replacement is supposed to be that nano sword thingy which is totally underpowered. I guess the IC² guys wanted to make it not as powerfull as the btw steel sword which one shots evertything, but by not going that little bit till the end they just made a sword that needs to be activated, and if it is, it consumes all its energy in a matter of a few minutes. The Chainsaw on the other hand two shots everything that matters as well and has next to no power consumption and can be powered by a bat pack. But I guess there is not much space for balance when a diamond sword already two shots creepers, skeletons and zombies. You either go for insta kill or not :).

I'm sorry, Minecraft =/= World of Warcraft... if you are looking for THAT kind of balance, please go back to it (no offence)... the combat system pre 1.8 is not ment to be a combat encounter system. In fact, Terraria has a much better system of combat/gear balance in that respect, but doesn't offer the same resource collection utilities as Notch's game does...

so no, This isn't the kind of game you are looking for.. (in terms of item balance...)

Do I know you ? No offense, but that reply doesn't even make sense. Why are you assuming I'm playong WoW ? And furthermore there certainly is the goal of some kind of balance, else everything around you would just die once it comes into close proximity to you. IC and BTW also certainly attempt to create some kind of balance as well, else they could just rewrite the code of the wooden sword, make it unbreakable, quadruple the damage and let you go on a killing spree on 'hard'. Because of the close range of numbers present in MC, the way to balance stuff is simply by counting how many hits it takes you kill something, by how long lasting a tool is and by the effort it takes to get it. In all 3 of these aspects in my above example the nano saber just fails. Why craft something that has more disadvantages than the other thing ? By the BTW philosophy such item wouldn't even exist, because its simply redundant.

Oh and btw, it certainly matters if you need two or one hits to take down a creeper or clear a room with a mobspawner. You are right about the combat of Terraria though, they certainly put more thought in it and while I'm at it: Strongholds seem to me like the poor attempt at making Terraria Dungeons in Minecraft :P.

[MagusUnion]

Do I know you ? No offense, but that reply doesn't even make sense. Why are you assuming I'm playong WoW ? And furthermore there certainly is the goal of some kind of balance, else everything around you would just die once it comes into close proximity to you. IC and BTW also certainly attempt to create some kind of balance as well, else they could just rewrite the code of the wooden sword, make it unbreakable, quadruple the damage and let you go on a killing spree on 'hard'. Because of the close range of numbers present in MC, the way to balance stuff is simply by counting how many hits it takes you kill something, by how long lasting a tool is and by the effort it takes to get it. In all 3 of these aspects in my above example the nano saber just fails. Why craft something that has more disadvantages than the other thing ? By the BTW philosophy such item wouldn't even exist, because its simply redundant.

Oh and btw, it certainly matters if you need two or one hits to take down a creeper or clear a room with a mobspawner. You are right about the combat of Terraria though, they certainly put more thought in it and while I'm at it: Strongholds seem to me like the poor attempt at making Terraria Dungeons in Minecraft :P.

My point is that items are not designed to be 'balanced' around combat/stat attributes, but their resource cost... The reason why diamond/steel/nano swords one-shot mobs, is because it's damn hard to get said materials to put said swords together. The reason I used WoW is because it is a famous example of needing to change out 'old gear' for better '1337 gear' that has higher stats. Personally, I hate this game design, almost for the same grievances I have with EE (deflating the value of lower-than-tier items). But with that said, items in vMC aren't meant to be so rigidly designed with the idea of 'it has to do X dmg and have Y crit. effect to beat A item from previous mod version'. I honestly doubt mod designers care about how much damage their weapons do in comparison to the content that they release (unless they are doing purely tool based mods, ofc)...

So yeah, that's what I meant... idk why you find such offence with this concept...

Edit: Al (the designer for IC^2) already stated that he didn't want one-shotting swords due to SMP PvP play... in 1.8, it's being considered to just increase it's crit. chance to be much higher than other weapons in the game... And no, counting # hits to kill a mob is a very ineffective way to determine balance. That's like saying SC2 banelings do the same damage when you have them attack a group of units both straight on, and underneath-detonating them...

[Zentobe]

Look down (Problem Solved!)

[gftweek]

Ugh, ID Resolver doesn't seem to work
For some reason, after installing ID Resolver, Mod loader just can't load mod_IC2.class
(Oh and by the way Gui API will crash every time you try to change a setting on a mac or something (I use a MAC))

I got it working just fine, I have EE, BC, BTW and IC² plus several other mods working using ID Resolver (yes, despite my initial concerns about balance I decided to give these all a try, even if I haven't done much with them yet, I will try and restrict myself from taking too many shortcuts).

Did you install the sound, modloader MP and crash hotfixes required for IC² v1.15, and do you have version 1.1.1 of Forge?

The only IDs I moved were the IC² ones and the BC oil ones, I can supply my new IDs that are working for me in a few hours if you like (still at work), then you don't need to install ID Resolver, and maybe not Gui API.

[Chaechew]

I got all of them to work together on both 1.73 and 1.8.1
Ill cover what i did the 1.8.1
Installed:
Modloader - restart - test
AudioMod
ModLoaderMp 1.8.1
Forge - restart - test
BTW 2.95
BC 2.20 - restart - test
ID resolver
industrialcraft-2-client_1.15 and thier extra files listed in gftweek's post.

Assigned IC2 id's automatically in reverse on the options given for ID resolver.
Started up and all work fine.

HD patcher

Restarts might not be neccessary, but i do it to pinpoint where a problem might be.

[Zentobe]

Look down (Problem Solved!)

[gftweek]

Was working fine till I got to industrialcraft 2
Here's my error report

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java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: forge/ITextureProvider
at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass1(Native Method)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClassCond(ClassLoader.java:632)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass(ClassLoader.java:616)
at java.security.SecureClassLoader.defineClass(SecureClassLoader.java:141)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.defineClass(URLClassLoader.java:283)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.access$000(URLClassLoader.java:58)
at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:197)
at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:190)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:307)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:248)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass1(Native Method)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClassCond(ClassLoader.java:632)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.defineClass(ClassLoader.java:616)
at java.security.SecureClassLoader.defineClass(SecureClassLoader.java:141)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.defineClass(URLClassLoader.java:283)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.access$000(URLClassLoader.java:58)
at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:197)
at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:190)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:307)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:248)
at java.lang.Class.getDeclaredFields0(Native Method)
at java.lang.Class.privateGetDeclaredFields(Class.java:2291)
at java.lang.Class.privateGetPublicFields(Class.java:2324)
at java.lang.Class.getFields(Class.java:1359)
at ModLoader.setupProperties(ModLoader.java:1583)
at ModLoader.addMod(ModLoader.java:274)
at ModLoader.readFromClassPath(ModLoader.java:1129)
at ModLoader.init(ModLoader.java:825)
at ModLoader.AddAllRenderers(ModLoader.java:186)
at aam.<init>(aam.java:61)
at aam.<clinit>(aam.java:10)
at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.a(SourceFile:259)
at net.minecraft.client.Minecraft.run(SourceFile:629)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:680)
Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: forge.ITextureProvider
at java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run(URLClassLoader.java:202)
at java.security.AccessController.doPrivileged(Native Method)
at java.net.URLClassLoader.findClass(URLClassLoader.java:190)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:307)
at java.lang.ClassLoader.loadClass(ClassLoader.java:248)
... 36 more

Not sure, looks like you either have the wrong version of Forge or it is conflicting with the HD patcher or some other texture changer (not using Optifine are you, it's not currently forge compatible?).

For those that don't want to install ID resolver (or have trouble with it), I changed my BC oil block settings to 199 and 200 (.minecraft\buildcraft\config\buildcraft.cfg), and here are my IC config changes (.minecraft\config\IC2.cfg):

Spoiler

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#########
# Block #
#########

block {
blockAlloy=202
blockAlloyGlass=201
blockCable=197
blockDoorAlloy=198
blockDynamite=207
blockDynamiteRemote=206
blockElectric=196
blockFenceIron=203
blockGenerator=216
blockHarz=210
blockITNT=209
blockLuminator=195
blockMachine=220
blockMachine2=192
blockMetal=193
blockMiningPipe=215
blockMiningTip=214
blockNuke=208
blockOreCopper=219
blockOreTin=218
blockOreUran=217
blockPersonal=194
blockReactorChamber=204
blockRubLeaves=212
blockRubSapling=211
blockRubWood=213
blockRubber=205
}

[Zentobe]

WOOOOPPPSSS I Forgot that I disabled it. Launching it...and WOOOOT It works! Thanks a lot!No I'm not using optifine
Everything is working except for IC^2