Embargo Lifted! (Open Early Game Discussion)

[FlowerChild]

Well, it's been just over a month since the first AAAAAAHHHH!!!! release, so I figure now is a good time to remove the "No Spoilers" rule on early game content so we can all feel free to discuss the mod openly again.

So, thoughts?

Trying very hard not to make an outdated Bueller reference here :)

[warmist]

Disclaimer: I've haven't had as much time to play the early part as other (probably).

My only issue is that usually i've used the "time-to-mine" as an indication for what tool is correct for the job. However playing the start there is no big difference (or at least it feels that way) between stick and sharp stone and it got me confused for quite a while and hindered experimentation.

[LannyRipple]

As an aside I just built my first A*H* iron axe this morning before work -- I've played BTW with my wife/family for several years with 6-7 ender dragon kills and except for that first dragon kill I can't remember a larger feeling of accomplishment.

Some spoilers I've noticed
- Starting in tiaga used to be more difficult than other biomes but survivable. I don't consider it so anymore. Too much jumping, not enough food.
- Starting might have been tweaked? Over the 5-6 games I've run the start for they've all been near plains and tiaga/forest. Maybe just luck.
- Sharp stones are for trees and rocks. There doesn't seem to be any speed improvement for digging or killing things.
- Spiders have one web now. (Maybe regen-ed after a while like cow udders and sheep wool? If so it's longer than a full night to do so.)
- Pain point: If you don't find a swamp (or a lucky desert) for reeds there's no storage until the axe. (If anyone has found a new recipe with the crafting bench before wooden planks please share!)

And since I haven't gotten very far that's about it.

The feel of the game is entirely new. It used to be I'd have no trouble running out for a day and exploring knowing I could dig in. Even after a few days there would be food reserves built up, I'd have found torches (or be dead from not), and losing a few animals wouldn't be a big deal. I really enjoyed the boat change (sails) because it made the world seem bigger. That was nothing compared to today and the need to take the early game with care. Move out, mark resources, harvest animals, back home so they don't die. Waste not, want not.

[ion]

- Pain point: If you don't find a swamp (or a lucky desert) for reeds there's no storage until the axe.

reeds are swamp only

[the_fodder]

- Pain point: If you don't find a swamp (or a lucky desert) for reeds there's no storage until the axe.

reeds are swamp only

Were they removed from deserts while I wasn't looking? Deserts also have another AHH feature that I haven't seen mentioned, wells are no longer useless.

Edit: welp, Those were removed a hell of a long time ago. I stand oblivious.

[ion]

Were they removed from deserts while I wasn't looking?

4.A Dingo
-Changed reeds to only spawn in swamps, for similar reasons.

[FlowerChild]

- Pain point: If you don't find a swamp (or a lucky desert) for reeds there's no storage until the axe.

reeds are swamp only

I think he meant the premade baskets you can find in deserts (hence the "lucky" part). Also, desert temples can serve as a decent base due to the existing chests (as long as you don't try to move them). Heck, you could even find a surface level dungeon.

Deserts are a gods damned storage cornucopia :)

[FlowerChild]

- Starting in tiaga used to be more difficult than other biomes but survivable. I don't consider it so anymore. Too much jumping, not enough food.

Hmmm... interesting. I'm currently living in a taiga early game, and not finding it too bad, but I'm also bordering on a swamp so that may be changing my sense of things.

I have some upcoming changes planned that may affect that balance somewhat so let me know if that does the trick.

- Starting might have been tweaked? Over the 5-6 games I've run the start for they've all been near plains and tiaga/forest. Maybe just luck.

Just luck.

I really enjoyed the boat change (sails) because it made the world seem bigger. That was nothing compared to today and the need to take the early game with care. Move out, mark resources, harvest animals, back home so they don't die. Waste not, want not.

Yes, making the world feel bigger was one of the things I really noticed during some of my first AAAAAHHHH testing. Exploration feels very much like a luxury now that you have to earn for yourself.

I hadn't really planned that part, so I was very pleasantly surprised by it.

However playing the start there is no big difference (or at least it feels that way) between stick and sharp stone and it got me confused for quite a while and hindered experimentation.

I'm uncertain if you mean the difference between stick and sharp stone, or between either of those and your fists. I'll assume the latter since I think the former is pretty clear.

Yeah, that one is a fine line to be sure as the speed of those tools is VERY tied into overall early game balance and vibe. Too fast, and mining becomes viable in the early game, which runs contrary to some of my most important design goals with these early game changes.

IMO, it's kinda similar to the feedback thread where I was talking about the names of those early game tools: yes, the current balance may not be ideal for first time use, but there are extended play considerations which I think take precedence.

[Taleric]

The enhancement to engaged early play is amazing. Hard to believe deciding between punching 14 or 16 logs was the way.

As you mentioned the balance to make iron is on a razors edge of food/smelting/searching/lighting.

I wonder how your own brick drying setups looked during testing. It was fun to see the evolution of methods by various people.

The mining is a next level frightening experiance with so much on the line. Very few games capture the investment in early game pre storage. It is like EvE flying solo deep in null space.

Hungry wolves are hell spawn.

The chisel feels like it could have somehow more uses but is great for the added value to smooth stone mid game; It turns from a tool of elation when you first get it to dread when you want muntiple repeaters and millstones :D

The shafts for early orienteering are excellent!

[VegasGoat]

The mining is a next level frightening experiance with so much on the line. Very few games capture the investment in early game pre storage. It is like EvE flying solo deep in null space.

I'm scared to death of going deep cave mining. It's really extended my stone age as I try to get hemp and chicken farms going so I can have plenty of food for running & jumping if necessary, and enough string to keep replacing axes / shovels. At the same time it's going to make failure hurt so much more to have to start over again, although it should leave a nicely developed base to find again.

[karnak sam]

Before AAAAAHHHHH, I only went into abandoned mineshafts, pre-crucible, to get melons.

Now, the webs alone are worth the risk.

Also, the clay/cobblestone connection is an addition of inspired badassery.

[jackatthekilns]

I have noticed something with the hardercore spawn change. I haven't died so many times that I am certain my impressions are accurate but it has been a fair few.

After my first hardcore spawn after A10H4 I built up a pretty decent base, I made a compass and was able to make my way back to spawn. I built markers so that I could make the trip again some day. Then after conditions which I wont spoil just in case, my hard core spawns are in very different places.

while I love the mechanic and I see the point, I feel that the unlikelyhood(or maybe impossibility) of seeing those early hardcore spawn bases again lowers my motivation to build much in the way of infrastructure, where I used to build roads and food chests ans all sorts before.

This may be an intended or acceptable change, and that is OK, I may just need to adjust my play style. But connecting those bases used to be an integral part of the game for me and now it feels less important.

Just something I noticed

[LannyRipple]

I think he meant the premade baskets you can find in deserts (hence the "lucky" part).

Nope. My memory was that reeds spawned in deserts but just rarely. This is what I get for reading every changelog but not remembering every changelog.

This *also* explains why I felt I was so unlucky that I searched that entire f-ing desert and didn't find a single reed. :/

One of the reasons getting that axe felt so good was porting around 15 iron nuggets looking for those last three iron ores. Talk about all your eggs in one basket!

[FlowerChild]

I wonder how your own brick drying setups looked during testing. It was fun to see the evolution of methods by various people.

Hmmm... I don't have any existing screenshots, and am fairly fresh on my latest spawn so don't have one built yet, but I've stuck with pretty much the same method throughout of having dirt or stump supports for a raised log platform with enough of a lip to prevent spiders climbing up. I then build and destroy dirt ramps for placing the clay and retrieving the bricks. I find this method looks cool and makes a good landmark as well.

I'll grab a screenshot next time I'm in range of one. I'd be interested in seeing the other methods people are using as well.

[dawnraider]

I wonder how your own brick drying setups looked during testing. It was fun to see the evolution of methods by various people.

Right here shows my latest setup after I added some limited aesthetics. https://youtu.be/eXe8hL79nkI?t=1993

[FlowerChild]

Right here shows my latest setup after I added some limited aesthetics. https://youtu.be/eXe8hL79nkI?t=1993

Yeah, that's almost identical to what I do, although I try to leave a lip around the edge to prevent spiders climbing up. Really like your use of chiseled logs there for columns. I hadn't thought of that :)

[dawnraider]

Yeah I've had several thoughts on aesthetic uses of chiseled logs, like columns or cross-beams in buildings like rafters. I haven't actually tried the latter though to see if it would work.

[FlowerChild]

while I love the mechanic and I see the point, I feel that the unlikelyhood(or maybe impossibility) of seeing those early hardcore spawn bases again lowers my motivation to build much in the way of infrastructure, where I used to build roads and food chests ans all sorts before.

I really don't think that's actually the case. Having died many times both before and after the release of AAAAAHHHH, I've also seen previous spawn locations on several occasions, and felt a large sense of relief when I do. IMO, there's still huge advantages to be gained both from building marked paths back home, and also marking a radius out from each HC Spawn location to help guide you to an established base.

This of course assumes you're not doing large biomes, which remains (as always) an unsupported mode. I think large biomes is perhaps now best suited for SMP servers with large player populations, or for the truly masochistic SSP experience.

[jackatthekilns]

I really don't think that's actually the case. Having died many times both before and after the release of AAAAAHHHH, I've also seen previous spawn locations on several occasions, and felt a large sense of relief when I do.

I knew it may have just been my experience, however I would like some clarification about hardercore spawn, given your response.

Spoiler

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I was under the impression, and my experience has made me believe this, that after progressing further in the tech tree, the minimum spawn distance increased along with the maximum distance.
but if you are spawning at locations from early on in the game, then am I mistaken?

This may not be something you want to expound on, and that is OK. Also, I am not asking for specific distances or probabilities. If my understanding of the mechanic was indeed flawed, then I definitely see the point in building out that early infrastructure.

[SerraNova]

Has anyone updated an existing world, and is there anything we should be aware of regarding existing builds before we take the plunge? Thank you for making the new flammability not affect existing builds, btw, and in general taking care to make older worlds keep working.

Final subquestions, are we able to build with smoothstone yet, and if not, are there any other blocks like that? I just want to make sure I understand and remember everything that could impact current builds and projects. I'm quite sure I will NOT remember everything about early game- first deaths are gonna be crazy, especially since we just got anvils and who KNOWS where we'll spawn!

Edit: Nevermind, we went for it anyway and figured stuff out ourselves, wee!

[LannyRipple]

I knew it may have just been my experience, however I would like some clarification about hardercore spawn

So I've played and died a lot. My mental picture of the HCS mechanic is that there's list of locations where you can spawn that's of a fixed length with a joker (or jokers) in the deck that can increase the length of the list and give you a new location. In one play through we were killing ourselves for the mystery meat and to build up spawn points and mostly were hitting known locations with the occasional "aha" new one. It would be an interesting programming problem. Pure random and the player can't make use of previous work. A fixed number of spawn slots and there is nothing new after they get mapped out originally.

FC just confirmed that once the ranges open up old sites can still be spawned at so I think nothing has really changed but the distances (ugh, and because the area of a circle is A ~ r^2 a lot more chance for never before seen places). Building in the new places is still gonna be the ideal response although Briali is doing quiet well on their server with just doing a rough and ready improvement (find some clay and lay it out mostly) and then waiting around until the next HCS to see if they are home. He's admitted to some concern with that tactic as the game progresses though.

This is definitely an area where playing on a server gives a huge advantage. If someone is back home and can get a read on your direction with soul sand then I find building up a new area is an interesting chore rather than a soul-crushing starting-over experience.

[ion]

Has anyone updated an existing world, and is there anything we should be aware of regarding existing builds before we take the plunge? Thank you for making the new flammability not affect existing builds, btw, and in general taking care to make older worlds keep working.

Final subquestions, are we able to build with smoothstone yet, and if not, are there any other blocks like that? I just want to make sure I understand and remember everything that could impact current builds and projects. I'm quite sure I will NOT remember everything about early game- first deaths are gonna be crazy, especially since we just got anvils and who KNOWS where we'll spawn!

yes all cobblestone and smoothstone are available after anvil tech.

[FlowerChild]

I was under the impression, and my experience has made me believe this, that after progressing further in the tech tree, the minimum spawn distance increased along with the maximum distance.

Well, the radii do increase beyond the original limits, but IMO, there's still a lot of value in having way stations along your journey back home, as well as locations that may be stumbled upon from slightly outside the old bounds, are even viewed from a distance.

In my own world I'm currently in post-nether HC spawn conditions, so no, I'm not respawning in new-game locations. I've just respawned frequently enough under those settings that I'm seeing the same locations sometimes.

[will_holmes]

So I'm a crazy person who plays this on Hardcore Mode and have done so for several years, and I'm going to say that overall I really like the changes. Fundamentally for me I think the big improvement boils down to the fact that there aren't any nights any more where the most optimal strategy is to do literally nothing, while before that was pretty common.

I am going to be honest and say I don't like the visual feedback of campfires, and my enjoyment of a particular run is better the faster I can bypass them and get loose brick furnaces. There isn't a decent way to gauge the amount of fuel left or when the fire will hit the "danger zone", which to me feels a little clunky, and when I run multiple fires it can be a bit like having an agonisingly slow game of whack-a-mole, which is only fun when it involves blunt force trauma. Brick furnaces don't have this problem at all because you can easily tell what's going on on both halves, including the smoke in the top half to tell if something's cooking.

I love the way bricks work, baking them is fun and it uses the challenges of modifying terrain. Pre-pickaxe mining feels good, challenging and cave-man like. Spiders and string being legit resources works really well and makes killing spiders at the entrance of your hobbit hole much more satisfying.

I swear that I will kill the dragon again without dying. You don't make it easy, FC, but that's why I like it.

[FlowerChild]

Brick furnaces don't have this problem at all because you can easily tell what's going on on both halves, including the smoke in the top half to tell if something's cooking.

Just as an FYI, campfires have exactly that same white smoke indicator when something is cooking.

As for their feedback: that's really the downside of campfires in that they have to constantly be tended to make sure they don't go out. I'd suggest running fewer of them if you're having the whack'a'mole problem. Either that, or feed more fuel into them to get them just to the point before they start really blazing.

I strongly suspect it might be something about the particular way you're using them that may be making them more of a problem than they need to be. As what you're saying really doesn't coincide with my own experience with them.