4x Games

[kazerima]

I started playing 4x games about 2 years ago with the rather lightweight Endless Space, before moving on the Civilization V, Galactic Civilization III, and more recently Stellaris. While I've enjoyed elements of each of them, I'd like to know which games in the genre everyone here is more interested in, and maybe talk about some design elements or help me decide my next purchase.

Endless Space was pretty simple compared to the others, making it a good genre entry point for me at the time, but after a while things started to feel a bit predictable and the Simon-like tech tree was getting a bit cramped. Game play boiled down to picking my victory condition and Simon slice, then relentlessly pursuing it with occasional dips into the others as needed. The best parts were the different strategic options presented before each battle, giving me more than Produce # of Unit Type X to manage combat, and the diverse racial options that felt distinct but not overwhelming. Ship design was also a fun mini-game that helped me keep some replay after the game started to lose depth. It was a nice transition from Starcraft II at the time and kept me occupied most of the summer before I wanted something a bit more complex.

Civilization V was a nice step up from Endless Space, a proper hex map with cities and resource nodes that felt more meaningful than the planets and star-lanes of Endless. City improvement was familiar, and the addition of workshop supported modding made it easier to add interesting content to keep things interesting. The biggest issue I think, though, is that after a while the game began to feel predictable. The fixed tech tree meant most of my planning went on at a single point and the rest of the game consisted of slowly implementing it, leading to my slow drop in interest. Many of the side-systems, such as religion and espionage, felt more like afterthoughts than full fledged gameplay features. Combat, while initially interesting due to the presence of barbarians encountered much more frequently than wandering pirates, also eventually stagnated as I felt myself slipping into a rock/paper/scissors mentality where I simply focused on producing the most powerful units possible when needed or focusing down on the tech tree completely. The lack of a gold oriented victory condition kept me from feeling like it was as important as Endless Dust, the most important aspect instead being scientific advancement, bolstered by production, to churn out high grade units while waiting for endgame. I do appreciate that only a single unit per tile is allowed, as it allows for a bit more tactical play than the giant death balls that I hear were frequent in Civ IV.

Galactic Civ III felt a little too similar to Civ V for my liking, and some of the systems felt clunky in their implementation, but there were some rather flavorful gems worth mentioning. The ship design system was almost outright unpleasant to work with, and the fact different models would be saved globally meant either my roster would be clogged with a bunch of special case ships of incremental power, or sticking almost exclusively to preset models despite my changing needs. The life support range and flavorful nature of what little diplomacy I had during my few early game playthroughs were definite positives, though not really enough to hold my interest. The game interface also felt kind of cramped and clunky, which while not game-breaking for a turn based game, kind of took away from the atmosphere. I may give it another shot sometime later, but it failed to really capture my attention.

Stellaris caught me off guard at first as a RTS/4x hybrid, though the ability to pause the game at any point to deliver orders harkens back to the turn based controls while allowing for time to feel more organic than specific turns. This can also punish the player a bit more for inattention, but means you're never kept waiting for computer turns to calculate or sighing and clicking the "next turn" button for lack of anything worth doing in your empire. Ship customization is diverse enough to feel interesting, though the use of specialized slots for equipment feels like both a blessing and a curse, preventing me from heavily specializing any given ship. The semi-random tech tree keeps future planning from getting too bogged down and allows for my empire to develop more organically as the situation dictates. The tile system used for planetary growth, variable resource availability, and anomaly analysis also help shake things up from game to game, as do the goal oriented research projects. Combat is a bit simplified with little control other than different A.I. chips stuffed into your ships, but retains more depth than Civ's rock/paper/scissors system by making each weapon and armor type better against each other while still being functional. The biggest weak point of the game so far is diplomacy is more of an after thought than a gameplay feature most of the time for me. Also, while the early game is a lot of fun, towards the middle it starts to slow down a bit as the lack of diverse victory conditions means once your map fills out it can be difficult to know how and where to progress. I haven't tried out any of the DLC yet, but let me know if any of this gets fixed.

Games I'm currently looking into:

Civ 6:
Pro: The revamped army and tile improvement systems seem interesting, as does the shift to a religious victory option.
Con: $60 price tag for the base game and no hint of what future DLC may bring. I hear the A.I. isn't much good either.

Endless Legend:
Pro: Interesting sword/sorcery setting with touches of sci fi, lots of expandable options if I end up liking the game, very different racial options and a unique looking feel.
Con: Lots of DLC can drive up the price tag of the full experience, depending on how the region system works, may have less tile improvement or exploration focus than I'm looking for.

Endless Space 2:
Pro: I've heard high praise for its politics system, diverse races featuring the old familiar options from Endless Space 1 along with new ones. Different combat strategies return with some streamlining.
Con: might be rough on my 2013 laptop, unsure how much substance lies beneath the pretty interface, as Endless Space 1 was kind of lightweight on the strategy compared to other 4x games. Despite robust political system, very poor diplomacy.

Pandora:
Pro: Randomized tech tree and resource availability means organic resource growth, unit creation options are diverse enough to be a game almost on its own.
Con: PvE interactivity is supposedly very limited while politics are somewhat confusing and disconnected. Endgame disasters are less hazards and more a race to see who can manage to not die before everyone else.

[Katalliaan]

I've played both Civ6 and Endless Legend.

Civ6: Since you can only have one military unit per tile, in the midgame you'll have to decide whether it's more important to have a more powerful unit or the extra pressure from things like flanking bonuses. Lategame, it shouldn't matter because you'll have enough production to pump out armies and fleets. I appreciate the various victory options, but for many of them you have to remember to click through several panes to see how close people are to the various victories. The DLCs so far have just been extra civs; I have yet to see any indication that they're going to be anything else. And yes, the AI can be a bit stupid at times.

Endless Legend: There's a limit of one city per region. The only tile improvements I've seen are in preset locations - dropping harvesters on resources, assimilating minor faction villages, placing towers on certain tiles for better vision, etc. Most of the improvements to the city are internal to it, with districts as an option to extend the area the city can exploit. The combat's significantly better than civ6's though IMO - it's not as simple as "group A smacks group B, both take damage" - when you attack an enemy army, it uses the terrain around you as a battlefield and you play a turn-based combat, with the ability to bring in backup from nearby cities and armies. Additionally, the unit selection is closer to Stellaris, where there's a limited number of unit types and you improve yours by getting better equipment for them.

[FlowerChild]

My eye troubles made strategy gaming a bit of a no-go for me these past few years (lots of small text and buttons), so I'm a bit behind the times, but I thought it worth mentioning that you might want to look into other Paradox games if you're getting seriously into 4X.

I assume you haven't played anything other than Stellaris (which I haven't played) given you mentioned being caught off-guard by the pausable real time thing, which I believe is common to all their strategy titles.

In particular, I'd recommend Crusader Kings as a really interesting strategy / quasi-RPG hybrid where you're essentially playing a ruling family in the middle ages. I think we had a thread here about it back in the day if you want more info, but suffice it to say if you want a unique experience that I don't think you can get in any other title, that's a good game for it. I've played both Europa Universalis and Hearts Of Iron (which while it may superficially look like a game of Axis and Allies in some ways, is so deep in how you manage your country of choice that it is much more akin to a 4X) games in the past as well and would happily vouch for either, but Crusader Kings is really their gem IMO. I've just never played another strategy game where you wind up feeling such a deep connection to your faction.

From what I've been reading, it seems a lot of more recent Paradox titles have developed into a DLC cash-grab, so you might want to stay clear of those unless you do your own research. Having not played them I can't say for certain, but I know I've seen enough to have created a mental footnote to look into that further before purchasing them.

[kazerima]

Thanks for the recommendations. I'm still relatively new to the genre, as the ones I've listed are the only 4x games I've played, so older games are also definitely worth looking into. I've also heard many good things about M.U.L.E. in both developer interviews and from some light research, but I don't really have the group at hand for a proper experience in playing it. Most of my actual experience comes from older RTS games, turn based strategy, and RPGs; but I'm really enjoying the bigger and slower crunch 4x games have to offer as my reflexes are a little too slow for anything competitive that isn't turn based.

[devak]

EU IV is a pretty fun game. The gameplay itself is not that complex, but due to the many countries, events and choices you can easily sink 60 hours into it and still feel like you're only barely competent. You could probably do a full playthrough of every nation 3-4 times without it feeling boring.

Stellaris' DLC has made the game considerably better. On Launch the post-early game was outright boring, but in recent times i've done two full playthroughs without feeling like i was in a slump at any point. Re-awakening Fallen Empires and Leviathans now fill in the previous mid-game slump.

In particular, I'd recommend Crusader Kings as a really interesting strategy / quasi-RPG hybrid where you're essentially playing a ruling family in the middle ages.

I've seen people describe it as basically "Medieval Marriage Simulator". I've played it a bit but couldn't really get into it.

[DaveYanakov]

Newer Paradox titles do have a lot of DLC, but aside from things like theme or music packs, they all add quite a lot to the experience.

Hearts of Iron 4 DLC is quite good, for example. You can take control of minor nations, not just the big players. Leading the Kingdom of Romania through World War II is an experience I have not encountered in any grand strategy title before.

If you're interested in more space, Star Ruler 2 is excellent and has some very interesting mechanics, including having a card-based element to politics and other actions

I second Endless Legend, it is a bit streamlined compared to the Civ series but even without the DLC the gameplay is solid and skipping over most of the logistics allowed the developer to focus on the strategy part.

For more terrestrial strategy, I would like to put forward Xenonauts. It doesn't have a great deal of exploration but the other 3 are strongly represented. Fighting off global scale alien invasion using Cold War era tools can get quite complex very quickly

[abculatter_2]

For more terrestrial strategy, I would like to put forward Xenonauts. It doesn't have a great deal of exploration but the other 3 are strongly represented. Fighting off global scale alien invasion using Cold War era tools can get quite complex very quickly

Continuing this, the XCOM series came to mind as a game of note while reading through this thread. It's similar to Xenonauts in that it's not really a 'true' 4X game, but it has many of the same elements, like turn-based combat and base building replacing city/planet management. The older version of XCOM has an open-source reboot (ala OpenTTD) which is basically the original game with continued dev support and modability. There's also the new reboot titles made by Firaxis, XCOM: Enemy Unknown and XCOM 2. These have been steamlined and polished to the point of bearing only a superficial resemblance to the original, but are quite fun in their own right. (Especially with the Long War mod installed)

[Katalliaan]

Figured I'd drop an update to my thoughts, now that I've been able to play a bit of Stellaris. It starts off strong with the early game - it's fun to go looking for new places to expand and meet the neighbors, and the anomalies add a fair bit of character. However, by midgame you're not doing much of that, and your science ships are left to just sit in orbit to assist research (barring some special event that requires you to go scout something). Late game, you're just waiting for whatever endgame crisis to trigger, given that the only ways to win are basically a matter of taking as much territory as possible (or outright destroying your competition). Compare that to Endless Legend and Civ6, where you have a variety of ways to win - aside from the inevitable score victory from simply running into the turn limit, there's culture, domination, religious, and science victories in Civ6 and elimination, expansion, economic, diplomatic, wonder, quest, scientific, and supremacy victories in EL. I thought that the ascension perks from the Utopia DLC might've expanded upon that, but it seems like they're just there to make your empire more powerful.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I just want to quickly point out that while paradox games are pretty good, they are not really 4x, they are more of the grand strategy genre, except Crusader Kings, which is a mixture of GS with dynasty manager for lack of a better term.

My favourite 4x games not mentioned yet:

Age of Wonders 3: simply my favourite 4x game of this era. Absurdly replayable and very deep. (fun fact, I started making a quite big mod for it last summer, adding 4 new units for each race, but something broke and not only did the files get corrupted, but also my most recent backups, bringing me so much back that I quit :/) >497.2 hrs on record <

Sword of the Stars complete collection: NOT SotSII! SotS I was amazing. One of the best games I've ever played. It has emphasis on combat, and limited diplomacy, but the tech tree and ship designing are amazing, and the actual combat mechanics are the best I've ever seen. Everything is fully simulated, weapon tracking ,trajectories, firing arcs, projectile velocities, point of impact, deflection due to angle of impact, simply amazing. And you can pause at any time to give orders. >440 hrs on record< (I had a non steam version initially. Then it came out on steam and I bought it again.)

Fallen Enchantress: Legendary heroes: This one has rpg elements thrown in, and is a blast to play, with preset and custom factions, tons of items, lots of abilities, great variety of units (which you design yourself, with perks, items, armour, weapons, according to your tech) and overall a great game. > 369.0 hrs on record <

Also I should mention:

Distant Worlds, which a lot of people swear it is the best thing after airconditioners. ( haven't played this one)

Warlock - Master of the Arcane: more basic in non combat areas and fantasy themed but good game >304.1 hrs on record <

Dominions 4: Not for everyone, not for the feint of heart. The dwarf fortress of 4x gaming, with very basic graphics and interface, very deep gameplay but little information given to the player (you WILL need to scour the web), and extremely detailed mechanics. >562 hrs on record<

Master of Orion 2: The game that defined the genre for me. Still the best space-4x game for me, even after 21 years. Playtime: my entire childhood.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I just want to quickly point out that while paradox games are pretty good, they are not really 4x, they are more of the grand strategy genre, except Crusader Kings, which is a mixture of GS with dynasty manager for lack of a better term.

My favourite 4x games not mentioned yet:

Age of Wonders 3: simply my favourite 4x game of this era. Absurdly replayable and very deep. (fun fact, I started making a quite big mod for it last summer, adding 4 new units for each race, but something broke and not only did the files get corrupted, but also my most recent backups, bringing me so much back that I quit :/) >497.2 hrs on record <

Sword of the Stars complete collection: NOT SotSII! SotS I was amazing. One of the best games I've ever played. It has emphasis on combat, and limited diplomacy, but the tech tree and ship designing are amazing, and the actual combat mechanics are the best I've ever seen. Everything is fully simulated, weapon tracking ,trajectories, firing arcs, projectile velocities, point of impact, deflection due to angle of impact, simply amazing. And you can pause at any time to give orders. The 6 different races are radically different in how they play, and have different FTL drives that define how they approach their development. For e.g. humans are constrained to nodepaths (think starlanes, like in endless space) but move very fast in them, Tarkas have a more traditional hyperdrive and can move freely between systems but slower than humans, and Hivers have no FTL whatsoever, instead they travel at stl speeds to systems, and set up gates, which they use to teleport ships from planet to planet instantly, making them quite slow to expand, but extremely hard to roust from a system once they gain a foothold. >440 hrs on record< (I had a non steam version initially. Then it came out on steam and I bought it again.)

Fallen Enchantress: Legendary heroes: This one has rpg elements thrown in, and is a blast to play, with preset and custom factions, tons of items, lots of abilities, great variety of units (which you design yourself, with perks, items, armour, weapons, according to your tech) and overall a great game. > 369.0 hrs on record <

Also I should mention:

Distant Worlds, which a lot of people swear it is the best thing after airconditioners. ( haven't played this one)

Warlock - Master of the Arcane: more basic in non combat areas and fantasy themed but good game >304.1 hrs on record <

Dominions 4: Not for everyone, not for the feint of heart. The dwarf fortress of 4x gaming, with very basic graphics and interface, very deep gameplay but little information given to the player (you WILL need to scour the web), and extremely detailed mechanics. >562 hrs on record<

Master of Orion 2: The game that defined the genre for me. Still the best space-4x game for me, even after 21 years. Playtime: my entire childhood.