mobtraps and how 1.8 might destroy them

[Stormweaver]

As per battosay's request; to start things, a quote from jeb's twitter:

Jens Bergensten
@tinfoilchef ... although we may make grinders obsolete in the future. For instance, exp orbs are only dropped if a player did the killing
6 hours ago

Tinfoil Chef
@jeb_ That's ok, if I'm using a mob grinder I want the drops more than the exp orbs
6 hours ago

Jens Bergensten
@tinfoilchef Yeah but that was what I was hinting at... We haven't changed it yet, but we may make drops work the same way as orbs

No notch bashing, just comments on how the potential changes to harvesting things will affect gameplay, with emphasis on BTW-related things.

[dyrewulf]

This may affect vanilla MC, but for BTW, won't Flower be able to just change this, at least for BTW killing methods anyway? Saws are the preferred method for me, and I think he could simply make the game see saws as a "player kill". I'm fine with the XP not collectible from traps though, as that makes perfect sense.

Honestly though, I wonder if Notch & Jeb have thought that out all the way yet, and may still change their minds because I don't see why they would want to disable such a feature that's been part of the game since early days. Unless changes to the spawning are going to make this so much easier to exploit and that is what they're worried about.

[Camerinthus]

This is a really bad idea. If this happens, I'm waiting for a mod to reverse it. Honestly.

[Stormweaver]

One large problem will be how falling damage wouldn't count as a player kill; if I remember FC's own factory farm, a large number of the mobs (everything but chickens) die from the fall, as opposed to the blades. At any rate, it means that FC has to put more work in for something that most MC players see as self evident, which I don't like. Not to mention there'd be no burning pigs for ready-to-eat porkchops.

Soul sand for itemising exp orbs anyone?

[M!C]

I've found myself a nice fix for my trap (only in smp though) in case mob grinders are nerfed.
I'll simply replace my lava blade with an automated player that does the killing ... this will even get me experience orbs.

[Tekei]

This may affect vanilla MC, but for BTW, won't Flower be able to just change this, at least for BTW killing methods anyway? Saws are the preferred method for me, and I think he could simply make the game see saws as a "player kill". I'm fine with the XP not collectible from traps though, as that makes perfect sense.

The change really upsets me. I have been thinking about it for quite a while and there are certain things that I just don't get about how they're thinking about their own game.

For vMC, mob traps are the only incentive to build anything more or less (except for a simple shelter ofcourse) the rest is about exploring and mining resources. with 1.8 they will at least attempt to make exploration more fun and rewarding and to me it seems like they are on the right track. I may not agree with everything they are doing but I can clearly see what they are trying to do.

The comment about removing mob drops unless it is a player that kills it on the other hand does not really make sense. It takes away the only real incentive to build anything in mincraft other than for the sake of building, and it gives nothing back. Sure, one could argue that it gives even more reason to explore the world, since you can't stay at home collecting loot any more, but to me it simply kills the building aspect of vMC.

For BTW I doubt it will make much of a difference. Sure, unless FC adds some special ability to the saw to make mobs drop items again (which it seems is possible) it won't be possible to farm mob drops any more. That sucks, but the incentive to build is still there so I guess I could live with it.

All in all it's just a stupid change and I really hope that Notch and Jeb reconsider their stance in this. I agree though that mob traps shouldn't yield experience orbs as that is more than reasonable.

Honestly though, I wonder if Notch & Jeb have thought that out all the way yet, and may still change their minds because I don't see why they would want to disable such a feature that's been part of the game since early days. Unless changes to the spawning are going to make this so much easier to exploit and that is what they're worried about.

Agreed. It almost seems as if Jeb was thinking out loud without properly considering what he said. I just wish there was a good and reliable way to send feedback to the Mojang team to notify them of how many people would dislike such a change.

[Haidaes]

Meh, I never really liked mobtraps to beginn with. They always felt like cheating or abusing the game mechanics.

[Glox]

I wonder how they filter out player-kill by 'nature'-kill. Punching mobs and slashing them with swords are obviously player kills. What about shooting them with arrows? Arrows can come from the player with a bow, or can be fired from a dispenser. How are they going to distuingish those? Attach a 'fired by player' boolean to the arrows or something? Will pushing a mob off a cliff count as player kill? If yes how will they determine if the mob was pushed by the player, by pistons or w/e, or simply the AI being stupid? What about blowing mobs up with TNT? What about a skeleton fireing arrows at you but instead killing a zombie between both of you? What about strategically letting a creeper explode to kill the surrounding mobs? etc.

They are going down a dark road with this one if you ask me.

[Blazara]

This change would be very unwelcome :L. There may be a way to sort of compensate for this providing that the spawning code stays the same. If any of you are familiar with Ethoslab's designs im sure a mob trap could just be attached to either a mobevator, or a water drop fall (for sky traps) Mobs could then collect in an area where they could be killed by the player safely. This could be made easier if you were to construct an EMP (search for it on youtube) Yet once again, this will only work if the spawning stays the same.

[Battlecat]

Well the change hasn't been made yet, it's just something they are discussing. And it will probably be easy enough to mod the game back to normal.

I'd rather not see it happen though, I make heavy use of creeper farms for dynamite production. And it would also remove the fun of finding stuff after creatures fall off cliffs and stuff.

Granted, if they make creepers farmable I might be ok with that change. Raising a herd of explosive creatures would be an interesting hazard!

[Blazara]

:L Indeed it would. I wouldn't enjoy feeding time though :P. I wonder if you may be able to collect items and xp orbs if said mob died, not directly from you, but by an action you take ie: Setting the ground underneath them alight, placing water to drown, placing lava to kill. Unlikely, but possible.

[BigShinyToys]

And what about the SUN it kills, would they still drop stuff ... this could really be a pain but like above it will be fixed in a Mod I would put money on it.

[Adjudicator79]

It should be pointed out that Notch and Mojang have been very upfront that MineCraft as we know it has always been the tool they are using to build an actual game. As in, an experience with clear objectives, rules, and a way to "win" - comparable to other games currently on the market.

He released the tool he was using to build the world for this game because he needed investment to make the actual finished product a reality. The tool has never been the game.

Now, it just so happens that some of the testers of the tool (and perhaps especially in the BTW sub-community), find the tool to be an interesting, enjoyable, non-game in and of itself. it sounds like 1.8 will recognize some of this trend with its return to Creative Mode.

This raises two distinct points.

1. Any reference to cheating in the current beta (1.7 and earlier) is really nonsensical. This isn't a game in the traditional sense, there are no game-imposed rules, therefore it is literally impossible to "cheat" in the way we normally mean when talking about any gaming activity. Of course, if a sub-community agrees upon a specific set of rules, then that sub-community might consider certain behavior (like TMI) to be cheating. But that doesn't change the reality that the product as it currently is released is not a game.

2. The removal of mob farming, any restrictions on building, or any other changes Notch makes to the tool are simply the way of putting finishing touches on the actual game. Every game has limitations. In a game that allows for making cooked food as a health restoration item, limiting the ability to mass-spawn and auto-harvest animals is perfectly sensible. All games have restrictions on items, item development, and item use in their imposed systems. Minecraft the game will be no different from that. Minecraft the tool is designed to allow experimentation with those systems, rules, and items and it makes sense to allow them to be far more open that any game normally would.

This leads me to my conclusion.

1. I will be keeping a 1.73 backup to play Minecraft the way it is pre-1.8, just in case Mojang doesn't offer a version of the game that removes the actual "gaming" elements and allows for the use of the tool in the way we have all come to love.

2. I will also be playing Minecraft the game, as planned and designed by Notch, and evaluating my enjoyment of that experience. It is possible I may not like it as much as I enjoy Minecraft the tool. If that is the case, BTW and other mods will continue to be a key part of my appreciation of the tool as a game. But that doesn't mean that Notch and Mojang aren't completely in the right in adjusting, tweaking, and removing portions of the tool in pursuit of the actual game. And I will give them the benefit of the doubt in playing the actual game and evaluating it as something similar to, but ultimately different from, the tool.

Just my $0.02.

[BigShinyToys]

- Snip -
This leads me to my conclusion.
- Snip -
Just my $0.02.

I didn't know that Notch released it as a way to Make money to fund its development . You learn something new every day .
I see you're point there there Tool There rules and they will do what they want with it. Witch is perfectly fine cos we have Moders like FC to fill the blanks and fix some of there bad decisions. This all means that our Little block friend Steve might have to go on a bread and water diet as compared to the tones of pork he has been scoffing LoL :)

[Necropolis]

I did not buy minecraft for what the game might one day be, especially considering they've never found it necessary to tell us what that game might be. I didn't buy a lottery ticket. I bought a game. That game did not have winning conditions, and was attractive because of the freedom of creativity it offered, with some small challenges along the way to keep it from being mundane. That game sold over 3,000,000 copies. Now you tell me, have the...gusto...to tell me, that they are completely in the right to fundamentally change a product that I've already bought to no longer have many of the properties that led me to buy the game in the first place. On top of this, you postulate this based on some of the weakest semantics I have yet seen outside the sphere of communications companies. What is more, the premise of those semantics is wrong. From Minecraft.net, the very first words on the site:

"Minecraft is a game about placing blocks to build anything you can imagine."

Limiting our abilities to make things takes away from the primary premise of this game. The game is and always has been and always will be far inferior in terms of combat and role playing to a host of competing games. People have spent a great deal of time and effort, playing the game for dozens upon dozens of hours, perfecting a bewildering variety of creative and intriguing ways to kill mobs. One of the primary motives of BTW has always been the automation of resource collection. This mod exists in part because of the ability to farm resources in Minecraft. Does anyone here really want to have the unbearable tedium of having to kill every creature you need resources from, then cart those resources manually over to your massive factories to process them automatically? The success of this game is fundamentally linked not to its fun of fighting mobs and getting better at swinging a sword, but to the things you can make with the game. The emphasis of development quite obviously, to anyone concerned with making money off the product, should be in enhancing and expanding the things you can build. Removing drops from things you don't kill with your hand stick takes away from that.

Perhaps they are in the right to limit mass spawning. Notch has mentioned for some time that he's going to make animals more permanent. I recall seeing somewhere that 1.8 is supposed to allow breeding. That's fantastic. I want to farm animals. I've added mods to do that because it made more sense, was more fun, and was more favorable to automation to have animal farms. Making it so that those farms don't work the way they do in the real world, where people kill their pigs in factories with little interaction (which is more efficient and much less disturbing to the workers) just makes no sense. A game should not introduce tedium. The alternative to that here is a limitation to building and development.

If anything can be said here, it's that Notch keeps missing the forest for the trees. He keeps thinking it necessary to add a game into minecraft that people have shown they do not need nor want. He's shooting himself in the foot. Whatever their intention for their release may be, to continue with this approach is stupidity.

[gftweek]

Well we didn't buy a fully released game either, nothing is set in stone. Several things have been added and removed, or removed then readded due to popular demand or game balance (in Notch's vision).

Also there are many play styles for minecraft, some people just like building houses or pixel art and will relish the creative mode, others just like to explore and will think this update is perfect. Us on this forum like the mechanical and automation side of things and like utilising game mechanics for interesting and useful effects.

I don't agree with everything Mojang does, and if they are ever removed, I will miss mobtraps until they are readded by mods a couple of days later. However, this might just be Jeb's opinion to remove mobtraps and Notch might veto it, or they might bow to pressure from fans of mobtrabs.

Also just to note, the spawning mechanics are changing in 1.8, but farming of animals won't be in until at least 1.9.

[Necropolis]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comme ... ?context=3

Granted, this was a month ago. Perhaps this has changed?

[gftweek]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comme ... ?context=3

Granted, this was a month ago. Perhaps this has changed?

Notch and Jeb couldn't decide how best to add them to the game, it was in a tweet from Jeb, so didn't have time to implement before PAX (and therefore 1.8).

[Caboose]

Well, I was planning on installing EMPs into my mob grinder anyways, that'll make a nice workaround if mob drops from non-player-caused-death is disabled.

They'd be trapped and ready to be easily dispatched with my own hands. Easy peasy.

[Flesh_Engine]

@jeb_ Jens Bergensten


Fun fact, I watch all interviews with @notch to know what Minecraft's development plan is

http://twitter.com/#!/jeb_/status/109551190169231361

*cough*

Yeah, think we'll see what happens to the mobgrinders but, tbh, they add too much gameplay to have them axed by something so whimsical.

[Tekei]

It should be pointed out that Notch and Mojang have been very upfront that MineCraft as we know it has always been the tool they are using to build an actual game. As in, an experience with clear objectives, rules, and a way to "win" - comparable to other games currently on the market.

He released the tool he was using to build the world for this game because he needed investment to make the actual finished product a reality. The tool has never been the game.

Now, it just so happens that some of the testers of the tool (and perhaps especially in the BTW sub-community), find the tool to be an interesting, enjoyable, non-game in and of itself. it sounds like 1.8 will recognize some of this trend with its return to Creative Mode.

This raises two distinct points.

1. Any reference to cheating in the current beta (1.7 and earlier) is really nonsensical. This isn't a game in the traditional sense, there are no game-imposed rules, therefore it is literally impossible to "cheat" in the way we normally mean when talking about any gaming activity. Of course, if a sub-community agrees upon a specific set of rules, then that sub-community might consider certain behavior (like TMI) to be cheating. But that doesn't change the reality that the product as it currently is released is not a game.

2. The removal of mob farming, any restrictions on building, or any other changes Notch makes to the tool are simply the way of putting finishing touches on the actual game. Every game has limitations. In a game that allows for making cooked food as a health restoration item, limiting the ability to mass-spawn and auto-harvest animals is perfectly sensible. All games have restrictions on items, item development, and item use in their imposed systems. Minecraft the game will be no different from that. Minecraft the tool is designed to allow experimentation with those systems, rules, and items and it makes sense to allow them to be far more open that any game normally would.

This leads me to my conclusion.

1. I will be keeping a 1.73 backup to play Minecraft the way it is pre-1.8, just in case Mojang doesn't offer a version of the game that removes the actual "gaming" elements and allows for the use of the tool in the way we have all come to love.

2. I will also be playing Minecraft the game, as planned and designed by Notch, and evaluating my enjoyment of that experience. It is possible I may not like it as much as I enjoy Minecraft the tool. If that is the case, BTW and other mods will continue to be a key part of my appreciation of the tool as a game. But that doesn't mean that Notch and Mojang aren't completely in the right in adjusting, tweaking, and removing portions of the tool in pursuit of the actual game. And I will give them the benefit of the doubt in playing the actual game and evaluating it as something similar to, but ultimately different from, the tool.

Just my $0.02.

(Ok, let's see if my english is good enough to get my point across)

Let me start by saying that I think you raise some really good points, however, I don't really agree.

"The tool" that you speak of, already had the fundamentals of a game (A goal and a set of rules). It just lacked a lot of other things that we, and gamedesigners, and anyone connected to the industry is used to having in games. I agree that the goal wasn't very clear though but basically you were supposed to build a base to protect you from the monsters in order to survive. There was also a limited tech tree with the wooden through diamond tools. The tech tree stops as soon as you get to the nether though, which isn't very far into the game.
What this "tool" lacks is experience, any proper "game cycles" other than manipulating blocks etc. but that's part of the charm. A good example is that it is difficult to explain what minecraft is to anyone in it's current state. That does not matter though! The game has sold over 3million copies and more people are buying it every day so I would consider the concept a success.

As you said, Notch has been very open about the fact that he wants to add a winnable goal to minecraft and he has said that he wants to reward exploration, that is all good. However, I've always imagined that goal to be more along the lines of what BTW provides (i.e "Reach the top of the tech tree") rather than "Find the hidden artifacts" or whatever the last thing I heard Notch talk about was. And for exploration I don't feel that they need to limit what you can already do in the game in order to provide you with enough incentive to go exploring. The monster traps does not stop you from going on a hunt for resources. Why not add more resources like clay, lapis, mossy stone etc that needs you to go out actively looking for them rather than removing something that is fun, does not imbalance the game considering the amount of resources and time we need to do it, and give you an incetive to actually build stuff in the game?

Here's what upsets me the most:
In vMC there are only very few reasons to build anything (And it surprises me that Notch hasn't said anything about this himself) you need a shelter, you need a portal, you might want a railroad for easy transportation and you might want a mob trap for easy drops. Thats it. Anything else is built simply because you feel like it. There's absolutely nothing to gain "game wise" from building stuff other than what I mentioned. If you remove mob traps there's even less of a reason to spend time building. BTW on the other hand provides you with a lot of incentive to build. You build a hemp farm and a millstone in order to be able to build a windmill that you use for making a water wheel, hoppers and later on hibachis etc etc. You know how BTW works. And it's not about crafting placing special blocks. A windmill requires you to build the entire contraption and same with the water wheel. hemp farms require direct light or strong light sources etc. It provides you with a lot of reasons to build things and the goal of the game becomes to advance through the tech tree as far as possible instead of having a game about finding [insert whatever item that Notch decides wins you the game] where building is just a side feature that you can use if you are bored.

Building has always been a fundamental feature of how people play Minecraft and removing parts of the fun with building contraptions by not letting us use the bad A.I of mobs to our advantage is just stupid. That means Notch needs to add better A.I to the mobs in order to make them interesting again (which I really doubt he will).

Now to your point. You are saying that vMC is a "non-game" and I agree to some extent, but there are other ways to make it into a game than adding more combat and reducing freedom. That's like saying that Eve Online isn't a game because it more or less relies on the players themselves to find things to do. Minecraft provides you with a set of rules and it's really up to the player to do something with them. That said, BTW adds the tech tree which all of a sudden makes the game more goal oriented without taking away from the freedom the game has always had.

Games are not about limitations in and of themselves but rather to find solutions to problems that arise. What I'm trying to say is that limitations aren't always good, and in this case I'm convinced that it's a bad idea.

Those are my 2 öre...

[Blazara]

I think some of the points raised in this topic have been really fascinating. All have valid points, though some i don't agree with. I do however feel (as someone previously posted [Was a fantastic post :)]) That when i bought Minecraft in Alpha, i bought it for what it was, not for what it could be. Mob systems are yet another drive and love for the game that the more technical players enjoy (im looking at you Mr Battosay :P ) I think to remove mechanics that have lead to so much creativity.. It just seems, wrong? Obviously this is just from my perspective, and im no game creator. I certainley don't have 10% of Notch's skill. But if i were creating a game, i wouldn't remove an aspect of said game if it was a real attraction to the less "Bashy bashy Wiv da soord!" and more " Now if i can automate this!" Players.

[Stormweaver]

I think some of the points raised in this topic have been really fascinating. All have valid points, though some i don't agree with. I do however feel (as someone previously posted [Was a fantastic post :)]) That when i bought Minecraft in Alpha, i bought it for what it was, not for what it could be. Mob systems are yet another drive and love for the game that the more technical players enjoy (im looking at you Mr Battosay :P ) I think to remove mechanics that have lead to so much creativity.. It just seems, wrong? Obviously this is just from my perspective, and im no game creator. I certainley don't have 10% of Notch's skill. But if i were creating a game, i wouldn't remove an aspect of said game if it was a real attraction to the less "Bashy bashy Wiv da soord!" and more " Now if i can automate this!" Players.

But you have to remember who notch sees as the majority of players - not us technical types who want to create epic systems for gathering resources, but instead the vast majority of younger (read: less intelligent) players who just want to jump on SMP and make epic bases, then run around in a group and bash things with swords. As the minority, our opinions are pretty much invalid if encouraging the larger majority to bashy bashy sword things makes for more sales.

[mr.creeper]

I think some of the points raised in this topic have been really fascinating. All have valid points, though some i don't agree with. I do however feel (as someone previously posted [Was a fantastic post :)]) That when i bought Minecraft in Alpha, i bought it for what it was, not for what it could be. Mob systems are yet another drive and love for the game that the more technical players enjoy (im looking at you Mr Battosay :P ) I think to remove mechanics that have lead to so much creativity.. It just seems, wrong? Obviously this is just from my perspective, and im no game creator. I certainley don't have 10% of Notch's skill. But if i were creating a game, i wouldn't remove an aspect of said game if it was a real attraction to the less "Bashy bashy Wiv da soord!" and more " Now if i can automate this!" Players.

But you have to remember who notch sees as the majority of players - not us technical types who want to create epic systems for gathering resources, but instead the vast majority of younger (read: less intelligent) players who just want to jump on SMP and make epic bases, then run around in a group and bash things with swords. As the minority, our opinions are pretty much invalid if encouraging the larger majority to bashy bashy sword things makes for more sales.

Dammit man not all twelve year kids are retarded!

Yeah but i'll agree with you. while i do enjoy making aesthetic structures they're all legit and as such i have to make more technical stuff (Automatic tree farms, mob grinders and such) so i do not like this change at all.

[gftweek]

Another tweet from Jeb

jeb_ Jens Bergensten
Please stop spamming me and Notch about "save the mob grinder." It's just a rumour based on me using the word "may" in a design discussion
11 minutes ago