Comicbookgirl19 says sorry

[jorgebonafe]

I just thought to post this here because what she said is basically what FC has been saying for a while, which is something no one really thinks about, which is how the audience doesn't know what they want, and how their own sense of entitlement just end up hurting themselves and the creators in the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AF3pMsi_bU

[Daisjun]

I actually think about this all the time. It always staggers me when people bitch about someone not posting enough content, especially when it comes to YouTube. These people take time out of their lives to film and put together episodes purely for your enjoyment, and you're sitting there like a whiny little bitch because their whole world doesn't revolve around dancing like a monkey in front of you for your entertainment.

Like how can you be a fan of something but hate on it at the same time? 'HEY GEORGE R. R. MARTIN. I LOVE YOUR BOOKS SO MUCH THAT I FUCKING HATE YOU'

Don't like waiting? No-one's fucking asking you to.

[FlowerChild]

I'm intrigued. Bit busy at the moment but I'll have to watch this later.

I've said it before, but working on BTW (and BTSM) has been a real eye opener for me. The level of hate that I receive for setting and adhering to my own limitations and creative principles is truly staggering at times, and it always amazes me that the core aspect of this, that I'm a guy that's providing free content that people can use or not at their option, and has been doing so for years, seems to be forgotten or ignored in that.

I'm obviously the type of personality that can handle that, but I don't think most people can, nor is it reasonable to expect them to.

[FlowerChild]

Watched enough to get the gist of it. Also read enough comments for a whole new level of face palm :)

[DaveYanakov]

The beautiful thing about watching videos on this new phone is that the comments are not viewable normally

[FlowerChild]

The beautiful thing about watching videos on this new phone is that the comments are not viewable normally

Short version is it looked to me like she was taking a lot of shit from her fans for this, basically just further proving her point.

[RandomObj3ct]

The level of hate that I receive for setting and adhering to my own limitations and creative principles is truly staggering at times, and it always amazes me that the core aspect of this, that I'm a guy that's providing free content that people can use or not at their option, and has been doing so for years, seems to be forgotten or ignored in that.

An interesting thing about that is that level of hate on a modder offering free content is acceptable (your not the only modder getting this kind of shit[see gregtech drama as an example]), yet at the same time it's taboo to even question the content you paid for.

[Sarudak]

That's not true. People give game developers of games they've paid for crap all the time. I saw it happening recently on the Europa Universalis 4 forums and it was pissing me off. Mostly because it could potentially destroy the will of developers I like to continue developing games I like.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, I agree there. I think paid games have it even worse, at least in the indie scene.

Big studios have PR departments which shelter the devs from the community chaos. That was the environment I was used to pre-BTW, which I think was part of why I rebelled so much against the attitude I faced and insisted on doing things my way regardless of what others said. Not being used to community "feedback", and being habituated to developing games without it, I think I had a bit of a "who the fuck are you guys?" response.

But yeah, for indie devs, I think they face even more of a sense of entitlement once something has been paid for, which is understandable to a certain extent giving folks have shelled out cash for whatever it is that's being worked on, but yeah, I don't think it's at all healthy for the dev process itself.

[Sarudak]

I honestly wish more indie devs ran their communities like this one. With swift punishment following anyone who can't express their opinion in civil terms. But i think a lot of developers are afraid of alienating their fan base.

[FlowerChild]

I honestly wish more indie devs ran their communities like this one. With swift punishment following anyone who can't express their opinion in civil terms. But i think a lot of developers are afraid of alienating their fan base.

I've taken a hell of a lot of flack for it as well man, and I think it is largely perceived as me just crushing any form of dissent regardless of how it's expressed.

I really don't know what the best solution for any of this really is. I know largely what works for me, and where I don't I muddle through things until I figure it out, often making errors along the way.

BTSM has been a real eye opener for me as well. There seems to be a segment of the KSP community in particular where any form of counter-argument made about suggestions or "feedback" on the mod seems to be taken as an insult, or an attempt to suppress free speech. There have been occasions where I've been genuinely mystified by people's reactions, and I've been making an effort to outright ignore the worst ideas just to avoid conflict. That doesn't always work either, as then you end up with the "did you see my post...did you see my post?" type pesters down the road. And of course without any kind of response these things have a tendency to fester due to bandwagoning.

Yeah...I'm quite happy to have the sanctuary of these forums to retreat to :)

[Gilberreke]

I love the "if the audience would know what it needs, they'd be the artist" quote :)

[Gormador]

I love the "if the audience would know what it needs, they'd be the artist" quote :)

Yeah, that's a pretty simple and clear way to explain the situation.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I think the best way to put it is not "the audience doesn't know what it wants", but rather a combination of "the audience doesn't know that the "a" it wants doesn't work together really with the "b" thing it wants" and the shockingly simple "if the audience knew 100% what it was getting it would be bored in 10 seconds"

A novel or a game or anything someone else creates really, has value to me because it deviates from what I would do. If it was 100% what I would do there would be almost no point to it for me personally.

The beauty of art and creation is bringing an individual into contact with different thoughts ideas and visions. Sadly not a lot of people realise that if they had their way they would live in an extremely bland and boring world.

[FlowerChild]

If it was 100% what I would do there would be almost no point to it for me personally.

Hehe...I've mentioned it a few times over the years, but yeah, the above is one of the double-edged swords of making games, or I suspect many creative endeavors.

You wind up creating something that is probably ideally suited to your tastes, but which you can never really fully enjoy from the perspective of the audience, since you know how it works, how it will end, and every detail that went into its creation.

For example, with me, I can't ever really create a problem for a player to solve without knowing the solution ahead of time (emergent gameplay aside). Thus I can never fully enjoy the in-game process of solving those same problems, which for me, is obviously one of the most enjoyable aspects of playing games.

[jstu9]

FC,

This topic reminds me of a question I was curious about asking you.

Basically, when you do get to releasing RTH how do you balance making the game that you want to make and the game that your audience wants to see?

It seems like it is a hard balance and from what I have seen on these forums, you have had a specific idea of what BTW was going to be and any suggestions, criticism, thoughts etc were not really wanted. And for a free mod, that's no big deal. You can do whatever you want. We either accept it or not. You can have your niche. The people who love it, love it. The people who don't, leave and never play again.

But assuming you want RTH to be somewhat successful, do you think you might have to compromise on some things that the general audience wants? As someone said in this thread, once money comes into play, then the audience probably does warrant some voice..... But maybe not.

I've seen you and others be critical where vanilla MC has been heading, basically bowing to its audience. But I find it an interesting question. But I am curious where the line is between commercial success and artistic freedom.

[FlowerChild]

I got into this in a stream awhile ago. I am not making RTH to make money. I am making it because I want to make the kinds of games that I want to play and work on, and can hopefully support myself in the process.

Perhaps it's a subtle distinction, but it's not to me. If I can't make the kinds of games that I love, then I don't want to be making games. I learned that through experience working in the industry. I think there are few things worse in life than doing something you love in a form you hate, as that's when it becomes heartbreaking instead of pleasurable, and your love of it just makes it hurt all the more.

So, in terms of how I plan to handle it, I think it's basically going to amount to a big ass disclaimer that warns people that I intend to make the game as I see fit, and if they choose to purchase it, they are just along for the ride and that I am in no way obliged to cater to their desires.

And btw, I'm fine with feedback. What I'm not fine with is either people being dicks about it or the expectation that I should change the design based on it if I don't agree with what is being said. I'm also not fine with what I view to be bad feedback that just wastes my time in reading it, which unfortunately, is what most of it comes down to. That kind of feedback puts me in a tough spot, as I either ignore it, which means I am likely to miss the good stuff in the process (which I do want) because I then won't be able to keep up with the volume, or I try to indicate what's good and what's bad in the hopes of increasing the signal to noise ratio, which as you see, tends to lead to a lot of conflict as I inevitably hurt feelings in the process.

So yeah, that's my stance on it. I am not trying to get rich here making games, rather I am aiming to try and get by doing what I love, and obviously turning it into something I don't love in the process would be counterproductive.

[Mason11987]

And btw, I'm fine with feedback. What I'm not fine with is either people being dicks about it or the expectation that I should change the design based on it if I don't agree with what is being said. I'm also not fine with what I view to be bad feedback that just wastes my time in reading it, which unfortunately, is what most of it comes down to. That kind of feedback puts me in a tough spot, as I either ignore it, which means I am likely to miss the good stuff in the process (which I do want).

On this I know I've provided a few bits of feedback over the last couple years based on extensive play experience with BTW that you've taken into account, and a couple others you didn't, but in those cases you were willing to provide an explanation for why it wasn't ideal. Obviously that can't be expected for all suggestions (especially rampant duplicate ones) though. I think you've struck of healthy balance of dismissing shit suggestions and considering thoughtful ones. I also think that showing that you know what you're doing in the first place tends to make people consider how valuable their own thoughts are in comparison.

[FlowerChild]

On this I know I've provided a few bits of feedback over the last couple years based on extensive play experience with BTW that you've taken into account, and a couple others you didn't, but in those cases you were willing to provide an explanation for why it wasn't ideal. Obviously that can't be expected for all suggestions (especially rampant duplicate ones) though. I think you've struck of healthy balance of dismissing shit suggestions and considering thoughtful ones. I also think that showing that you know what you're doing in the first place tends to make people consider how valuable their own thoughts are in comparison.

Thanks man, I appreciate that.

I know one habit I've gotten into that I think really helps is not only listing every change I make in the log (spoilery ones aside), but also explaining *why* I made it. I think this helps reduce back and forth post release a lot (few things bug me more than people freaking out about changes before even playing with or understanding them), and with time has also given people more insight into my thought process and why I do things the way I do.

And as for explanations in response: unfortunately, that only tends to work for the most intelligent (even if ultimately bad) suggestions and posters in the first place. You guys have definitely seen me lose my cool on more than one occasion, but I don't think any of you really know how often my immediate internal response to many suggestions is more along the lines of "Are you a fucking moron?" before toning it down to a slightly less insulting version ;)

As an experienced dev, there's only so many inexperienced and just plain idiotic suggestion you can be receptive to before you start losing it. I try to be responsive and thoughtful about feedback and to give it serious consideration, but at a certain noise ratio, it's like a kid is banging on a pot next your head while you're trying to do so.

[Sarudak]

Well I'm happy to hear you don't plan on watering anything down just because money is involved. Not that I expected anything else but I'm glad to hear it. :)

[FlowerChild]

Well I'm happy to hear you don't plan on watering anything down just because money is involved. Not that I expected anything else but I'm glad to hear it. :)

Nah man, I just can't do that anymore. I've made rather good money at points in my life and wound up largely miserable with what I guess many would consider a dream job.

I'd rather be poor and happy with my work than rich and miserable any day.

I think this can be hard for many to understand, as I think most work to live rather than the other way around. They use their job to sustain the lifestyle they want outside of it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I think for me my work is basically my life. It's what makes me the happiest, so just as long as I can make enough money to keep doing it, then I'm golden.

[Gilberreke]

The worst part of BTW's development was when people had the feeling that making suggestions was almost a mini-game to be farmed. I admit I might have even played that role myself for a while, before discovering I was doing it. I think both the community and you have grown in that aspect. The strict moderation made people think before suggesting, but mostly, you've seemed to have grown in how you communicate with us which parts you want feedback on.

Where in the past I had some troubles figuring out sometimes if my suggestion warranted posting (I filter myself a lot, since I care so much about BTW that I tend to have silly ideas every 3 seconds), these days you make it really clear what you want feedback on. Like with the villagers lately. You made it clear that it needed further feedback, so I paid close attention to my gut feelings when a trade came on (immediate reactions to how I feel when a trade comes up seem to be most important).

So yeah, for RTH, it might be best to even improve on that trend, clearly stating which features are in the process of balancing and which features are "locked" for the foreseeable future, so we really know when and where to help you and when to shut the hell up and enjoy the free content :)

[MoRmEnGiL]

I think there are few things worse in life than doing something you love in a form you hate, as that's when it becomes heartbreaking instead of pleasurable, and your love of it just makes it hurt all the more.

Can we have this as a banner on the top of the forum or something? This single sentence holds so much truth at least for me.. I can count the hours upon hours I've agonized over decisions in my life due to the above. It might well be a major factor in why I'm having such a hard time finding a stable job.

[garrak_x86]

[...]The strict moderation made people think before suggesting, [...]

I'm pretty sure it also got some people to try the mod in the first place. It did in my case atleast.
I watched a feature-showcase video of BTW (which was pretty basic and didn't "sell" it to me), but after reading the thread in the minecraft forum and digging around in the btw one, it kind of stuck. In a sense "well, this guy atleast knows what he wants and sticks to it".
It still is quite unique or atleast uncommon handle on that issue, not only in the mod community; I don't give a damn about someone saying "we care about feedback", it's just conflict evasion, honest answers - that was pretty refreshing.

And then, after getting mad about a modpack (features outgrowing each other, making those i actually liked obsolete, and plenty more...). my buddies and i decided to give BTW a try.
I expected a more consistent mod, got it, the idea did fit, and we stuck with it :) - retrying that modpack after a few months was even worse by then.