New to Warhammer 40K

[JakeZKAM]

So at the moment I'm in the process of moving but once I'm done hopefully I'll have quite a bit of free time on my hands. Now I've been wanting to get into Games like 40K for awhile and so I did my research aaaand... Well first off it's certainly expensive and 40K is getting a pretty bad rep but it seems like nobody is playing anything else within that genre. So before I actually get into it I wanted to know if anyone on the forums is a 40K player and if they have any advice in this matter, or possibly an alternative. I love collecting, painting, and making models so that's one of the big draws. Having a couple massive armies massacring each other is also extremely appealing, so I was thinking either Imperial Guard or Space Marines.

[FlowerChild]

My advice: run as far and as fast as you can :)

[JakeZKAM]

But it's so shiny and it's calling to me T.T

[StarsintheSky]

I agree with FlowerChild on this one. But if you simply can't resist, I have one question for you: Imperial or Heretic?

[JakeZKAM]

Imperial most likely. Can I ask though, what is it about 40k that's so bad? The prices or the rules?

[FlowerChild]

Imperial most likely. Can I ask though, what is it about 40k that's so bad? The prices or the rules?

The never ending time and money sink based on a rather tenuous set of rules, that frankly, just aren't that interesting and are largely geared towards selling more miniatures.

Don't get me wrong, I've been utterly addicted to the universe and background for the last 25 years or so since the first edition of the rules came out, but since then, it's mutated into a rather shameless money grab as a game, which has still managed to suck me back in more than a few times despite myself.

So yeah, in short, it's just not a very good game when it comes down to it, and it's very much geared towards sucking as much money as possible out of players.

[Taleric]

This about sums it up

http://youtu.be/_zSxQnZ3TM8

If you paint really well you could do commissions for people and read from the black library to get your fix :P

[JakeZKAM]

I'd expect it to be a money sink the same way as MTG or General gaming are, but it seems pretty ridiculous and unfair to change the rules based on selling new merch. The universe itself I've learned quite a bit about and find very appealing, and the idea behind the game/hobby I like a lot too. I'll do a bit more research and maybe see a few games with friends but if it's not even fun to play weeeell I might just try and find a substitute.

And as far as commissions go I could probably do that but it'd be verrrry hard for me to let the miniatures go. I'm such a collector (Hoarder) that I must have all the shinies.

[FlowerChild]

Well, even back when I used to play, it was often a case of them not so much striving for balance with the game, as much as it was making sure that the newest units/armies were also the most powerful in the game at any time so that people would be inspired to buy new miniatures to stay competitive.

If the above linked cartoon is any indication, it looks like that's still the case.

I also watched the rules get successively dumbed down version after version in the push for more mass market and larger armies (since that means more miniature sales).

Games Workshop used to be a VERY cool and innovative table top company (I'm talking over 20 years ago here) that released a whole bunch of awesome miniature and board games (like Talisman). At some point though, there was a radical shift in their approach, where even their gaming magazine (White Dwarf) which was a broad and very good mag about gaming in general (covering everything from D&D to their own games), suddenly turned into a GW-only game publication that basically amounted to a magazine full of ads for their products (but which you still paid for mind you). Since then, they've essentially become the Microsoft of table-top gaming. Heck, the first edition of 40K had cardboard cut-out counters in the back so you wouldn't have to buy miniatures to play, whereas in sharp contrast, I swore off the game when they actually made it a rule requirement that you MUST have official and painted miniatures to play.

The universe is still awesome mind you (well, at least the parts that were first there 25 years ago...the newer rubbish like Necrons and Tau aside), but these days I just stick to computer games and the occasional novel to get my fix of that and do my best to stay away from the game itself. I highly recommend the first Dawn of War (the second isn't very compelling as it was made after Relic kinda lost their way too) if you feel like playing something in the universe.

[Daisjun]

Space Hulk was also just released recently on Steam. It's basically a recreation of the board game, but it looks pretty nifty from the videos I've seen.

I started off my first army by buying a bunch of stuff second hand, you can get it significantly cheaper than retail (which shows how much people think a pile of molded plastic is actually worth) and it'll give you a feel for the game without actually having to invest too much money. If you do want your stuff new, shop around, GW is probably the worst place to buy your miniatures from. We bought our stuff from a hobby shop down the road and brought it back to GW and used their paints :)

And despite what anyone thinks of GW, the community is pretty friendly. But yeah, I also agree with everything that was said before.

[JakeZKAM]

Thanks for the lengthy response :D. Yeah I can get how off putting those kind of rules can be (really starting to make me reconsider.) and it's unfortunate that it had to go that way. The universe however is exceedingly cool, and I do have a couple 40K games on steam from some sale long ago. Once I can get my computer to work properly I think I'll try em out :).

[FlowerChild]

Well, depends on which computer game really. 40K has a long history of computer games, some stellar (going all the way back to the 1st Space Hulk and Chaos Gate), some utter crap (Fire Warrior, Space Marine). Even while Dawn of War is probably my favorite, Dawn of War II was distinctly "meh" and I didn't find it to really be worth the time.

So yeah, choose your 40K games wisely :)

Here, let me pass along the intro cinematic to Dawn of War 1. If it doesn't give you wood, you aren't a 40K fan ;)

[JakeZKAM]

Wood has been achieved, the utter carnage of that battle is amazing. Unfortunately I checked my Library and it's indeed Dawn of War 2 that I have :P guess I gotta save up and grab the first one at some point. Thanks for the recommendation man, I always value your input on games highly :). If it's as good as it looks I may yet be able to get my 40K fix hehe.

[FlowerChild]

Wood has been achieved, the utter carnage of that battle is amazing. Unfortunately I checked my Library and it's indeed Dawn of War 2 that I have :P guess I gotta save up and grab the first one at some point. Thanks for the recommendation man, I always value your input on games highly :). If it's as good as it looks I may yet be able to get my 40K fix hehe.

Well, DoW 2 *is* fun for awhile, and if you haven't played the first yet, you might enjoy it. Hence why it gets a "meh" from me instead of a "bloody awful" :)

I am just rather disenchanted with Relic overall as they used to make some of my favorite games. Around the time of Dawn of War 2, I uttered an "oh oh" as there was a definite dumbing-down occurring in their game design, which I assume was them trying to tap into a more mainstream audience rather than the more hardcore games they did in the past (and which they excelled at).

Dawn Of War 1 was one of my favorite RTS games of all time and it contained some fairly brilliant evolutions to the genre (like the cover system), so to see it turned into some kind of RTS/action hybrid with DoW 2 left a very bad taste in my mouth and made it rather difficult for me to enjoy. By the time Space Marine came out, that design trend had hit a full blown epidemic, where not only had they decided to make an action game, but an extremely shallow one to boot.

Like, I would have killed for a 40K tactical FPS (in fact, the only other mod I've ever worked on was along those lines at a time when tactical FPS games were still in their infancy). Instead, they went to the other end of the spectrum and did a 3rd person action game with next to no depth. Heck, if they had even gone Gears of War with the design and included some kind of cover system and such, or gone Dynasty Warriors and had the battles take place within a larger context, I would have been happy, but it really was just pure button mashing overly linear "blah" that seemed to pride itself most on canned melee animation sequences that were about as enthralling after a few times as quicktime events. At best, it was a combat system (and not a particularly engaging one) with no surrounding game to make it compelling.

Anyways, yeah, give DoW 2 a try if you feel like it. It's not a bad game, just a huge let down for me given it was the sequel to one of my favorite games and turned it into something far less satisfying. I wouldn't recommend Space Marine though, unless you get it for free or as part of a bundle.

[Sockthing]

I did actually collect some of the newer orks. But after a while the repetitive painting did tire me out. So i still have around 100 figures to glue and paint. My suggestion hereby is, that if you have the money and the patience for something like this than go for it, but dont regret it afterwards spending a rather big amount for something you then not enjoyed ;) I still want to finish my army, but just need to find the right time :)

[lostone1993]

If you want something closer to the table top game then I suggest Chaos gate. Dawn of war is a good game I enjoy it as well though it never quite hooked me

The main bad side to chaos gate is can be quite difficult to get to work and seems to be somewhat rare to buy
these is also a game before it that might be worth look though I haven't played it

Chaos gate intro in spoiler

Spoiler

Show

EDIT: reading the reply's to this topic is making crave 40k some more :P
especially these two vids, Looks like I will be digging out a win98 box ;)

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, Chaos Gate was awesome back in the day, but I doubt it's aged very well.

Granted, there are so few turn based tactical games these days that the genre hasn't evolved design-wise very much since then. I guess you could count the modern XCom, but man, it's super simplified by comparison to the point where it doesn't feel like the same kind of game IMO.

[JakeZKAM]

Yeah, Chaos Gate was awesome back in the day, but I doubt it's aged very well.

Granted, there are so few turn based tactical games these days that the genre hasn't evolved design-wise very much since then. I guess you could count the modern XCom, but man, it's super simplified by comparison to the point where it doesn't feel like the same kind of game IMO.

There doesn't seem to be too many on the PC at least, The DS has a huuuuge list of turned based tactical games, usually from Japan, and Valkyria Chronicles on the PS3 is one of my favorites of all time. It's got it's flaws and I haven't tried the sequels yet to see if they improved anything, but hell I have a lot of fun playing it and it can be brutal sometimes as well. So long as you ignore the absolutely horrible story, and for the love of god don't use the English voices XD.


And I'll keep an eye out for Chaos Gate. I love older games (I could care less how they age usually) and if it's similar to the tabletop then I'm very interested :)

[FlowerChild]

Actually, it's not at all like table top :)

It's basically a whole other turn based tactical game designed around the themes of 40K. There's really no similarity in the rule set.

[JakeZKAM]

XD I'll still look around then, I love turn based tactical stuff :P

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, I can't remember a straight up rules port into a video game ever being done for 40K. Honestly, I don't think it would be very compelling (and this is the case for many table top games) because the rules set is so abstracted.

One of the big advantages in computer games for doing this kind of thing is that you can bulk out the rules set to a point that would really not be practical in a table top game, making the player's decision making process more interesting, while not overburdening them with complex manual calculations and such.

For all its warts this may be why 40K has survived for has long as it has when I suspect most such gaming has died off due to the players moving over to video games. It focuses largely on the hobby of collecting and painting miniatures which is obviously something that does not translate well onto a PC, with the game itself being almost an afterthought in that process.

[JakeZKAM]

The painting and hobby part itself and probably the imagination and freedom with it. I'm not sure about 40K since I haven't really played it yet, but most tabletops and pen and paper style games I've played allow for pretty much any action, scenario, or outcome that can be thought of. Video games can do a lot, but there's only so much data you can fit on a computer. Direct human interaction is also nice and there's a difference between playing a game at your friends house at the same table, or playing online with everyone at their own home.

[myrkana]

Try Warmachine Hordes? It's similar to warhammer in a very slight manner :-p it used models as well but its much less expensive(smaller armies, think the biggest I've seen is maybe 40 or so models) and (at least in my area) there are always journeyman leagues starting up for it so it's quite easy to get into :) theres also quite a few factions you can look at, the game has 2 to it side each with 5 or 6 factions. Warmachine has your machines and the like Hordes has your other non-technology races. :D

http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Newbie+Page
^ might help you get some info :D you might see warmachine and horde listed as different games because the factions can go against each other but warmachine uses slightly different mechanics than hordes :) (one uses fury, one uses focus and both work completely different)

[kregoth]

Dawn Of War 1 was one of my favorite RTS games of all time and it contained some fairly brilliant evolutions to the genre (like the cover system), so to see it turned into some kind of RTS/action hybrid with DoW 2 left a very bad taste in my mouth and made it rather difficult for me to enjoy. By the time Space Marine came out, that design trend had hit a full blown epidemic, where not only had they decided to make an action game, but an extremely shallow one to boot.

I have to agree with this I love Dawn of War 1. Everything in that game worked so well, and everything felt so damn satisfying. It was a game that did really well at rewarding you for being smart, rather than just some mouse-clicking moron. They even had good support in the beginning for that game, supprted mods and everything.

It was so satisfying artillery striking a huge choke point and then using the craters as cover for advancement. They did a damn good job of making all units important throughout the game. When DaW2 came out and they decided on squad focus, rather than army it became less fun and less tactile. It was fun, just not for very long.

Dawn of War 1 is one my all time favorites as well, dear god that game was addictive as hell.

[Sandrew]

On the subject of 40K video games, I would really like to recommend Final Liberation. I'm not quite sure but I believe it's a near direct translation of Warhammer 40k: Epic into a videogame. It features rather limited resources and persistent units across missions making the game damn hard and involving as you try to get through with minimal losses.

Also, Baneblades, Shadow Swords and Titans.