Design Puzzle : Making transportation meaningful?

[Sarudak]

Disclaimer: This is not meant as a suggestion for BTW and is not a suggestion for RTH.

Recently I've been pondering minecraft and considering how great the potential is for building goods transportation networks, especially automated transportation networks and how much fun having strong logistical considerations could be. IE if you found an iron mine but you then had to consider. How do I get all the ore home? Alternatively should I build a smelter on site? Is there fuel available locally? Is there good construction materials available locally or would I have to ship them in? Now Flowerchild has done an excellent job of making personal transportation an important issue and making sure that we have meaningful actions to take in the respect (building roads/rails). But the idea of transporting goods is made moot by the fact that Steve can carry an obscene amount of materials on his person.

So the puzzle. Is it possible to make transporting goods an important consideration without making inventory management and construction projects a horrible chore?

I had a few ideas but they feel a bit off.

1. A weight system.
Pros: Reflects that some materials are easier to move around than others. Could allow for people to carry more than they should for short distances with a speed penalty making mining a little more forgiving if you're by a supply cart.
Cons: Many small items would tend to be disproportionately useful for their weight or the weights would feel really off to people (compare an iron tool to a cubic meter of stone)

2. Dramatically reduce stack size probably 1 for most construction blocks.
Pros: Simple and easy to understand.
Cons: Inventory management would likely become an annoying click-fest. Would have to completely rework how things like furnaces work for smelting.

Neither of these solutions seem like they really fit the bill although the cons of the second system could be mitigated by providing ui convenience for inventory management (auto grab another block from inventory after placing, easy dump or pick up all of one material to/from a chest). I think the second system shows some promise maybe if minecraft were redesigned to accommodate it.

So is it even possible to satisfy both sides? I wonder.

[Gilberreke]

Both systems feel more on the tedious side than adding tons of game-play. I'm not sure if either is the solution.

There's a mod that allows backpacks, but they take up an armor slot. That one is interesting, because it means you can carry more the less armor you wear.

I'll have to ponder this. Interesting problem.

[Sarudak]

Well the thing is that any solution to this problem is going to end up feeling like it has a lot of aspects of tedium to it. That doesn't mean it's bad though. For example hardcore movement as a feature definitely adds something that seems tedious in game (OMG takes me forever to cross deserts/jungles) but in creating that tedium you create incentives. You have the incentive to consider terrain when exploring (should I cross this desert or try to go around?) and you have the incentive to build roads. Or pottery. Making pottery is SOOO tedious to do by hand. This gives the incentive to automate.

Similarly the only way you can motivate the player to consider logistical/transport issues is by causing them pain and then giving them a way to manage that pain through thoughtful action.

[DNoved1]

I've had similar ideas in the past regarding inventory management/transportation. In case you're interested, here's the basics:

The player can carry one item in their hands. I considered making it two, but given most tools are two handed and blocks are freakin' huge, as well as that one is slightly simpler, I decided having one would be better.

The player can carry various items on themselves. Armor would be the main item the player would be capable of holding, though packs and other items would also be capable of being equipped.

Packs can carry a variety of items, with weight limitations. Stack size would be limitless, as it becomes mostly redundant under this system. A system would be put in place to allow quick switching between held items and pack items (I have a few ideas on how this could be done, but the main point is it should be painless, no rummaging through your stuff trying to get one item out). Items would be automatically refilled from the pack as they are used, assuming there are any extras.

My hope with these ideas was to increase the value of inventory management, chest carts/rail lines, and storage. I've considered implementing size restrictions on chests/packs as well, but that may prove overly complex.

Unfortunately, these ideas are almost completely incompatible with btw, concept wise. They also may conflict with some of btw's goals (auto-replacing tools for example). Aside from that, they are relatively difficult to implement (making the player's inventory one sized plus armor slots is particularly difficult, given inventory size is an assumption large areas of the game makes which takes many, many changes to correct).

[Gilberreke]

Oh yeah, I definitely agree. I just think you need to consider the following:

Players move around:
1) Inside their base
2) To go mining
3) To explore/move larger distances

Increasing tedium for all of those activities, just so 3 becomes more interesting is what worries me. Backpacks make 2 and partly 3 more tedious, but not 1, which is why I think it's interesting.

Now you need to find a way so you can emphasize 3 instead of 2. Problem is, how would you separate 2 and 3?

[Dr. Kylstein]

Having to babysit storage minecarts is my pet peeve about them. They aren't easily made to accompany passenger carts, but they can't travel on their own over any meaningful distance otherwise. If that could be fixed, I don't think nerfing inventory would be needed.

[Sarudak]

I think you're assuming that mining would happen similar to how it happens in minecraft. Personally I hate how mining happens in minecraft. It's dead-boring (except for caving) and doesn't engage the player at all. Really it just feels like grinding. I have many thoughts on how mining could be fixed to be far more interesting and more integrated with gameplay but that's another topic entirely.

Assuming that mining took place in something more resembling large deposits gives the idea of goods transportation more relevance.

[FlowerChild]

If this is about making your own game man, like I said before, I really don't want it on these forums.

I don't want to read through the thread in detail to determine that myself as obviously this is getting into the territory of my own design work for RTH, but I will ask this: what is your goal with this conversation?

[will_holmes]

Strikes me as a thought experiment designed to explore minecraft game design generally, FC. You're not taking suggestions, so there's no danger of it getting involved with BTW or RTH.

If you don't want people talking about minecraft mod game design in off topic, then say so.

[Jesar]

-snip-

[SterlingRed]

Guys I think it's best to leave off horde commentary until sarudak addresses fcs concerns directly. Further comments really just add noise and confuse the issue, possibly make it worse.

[Sarudak]

Yes please on leaving off the commentary.