Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

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FlowerChild
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Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Another week (or couple of months...man, it's been awhile), another round of feature development!

As always, rules for this thread:

-DO NOT post suggestions.
-DO NOT critique unreleased features. Wait until you've had a chance to try them before passing judgement.

With that out of the way, let's open with an in-game screenshot:
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That's a long-view of my spawn base in my "new" world (the base itself is built into the hill that the Wind Mill rests on). As many of you probably know, I've been playing the same world for about two and a half years now, every since I started playing vanilla MC, and it's been my constant companion through the development of Better Than Wolves. However, with all the early game changes that I've made, awhile ago I decided to bite the bullet and start a brand new world which I'm now playing pretty much exclusively (I still test and play test late game stuff in my old main). It now has bases all over the place from my many Hardcore Spawns, and features a road/path/thing that bisects the whole thing. I've been taking my time playing this one, and basically only move forward in tech when I am satisfied with the balance of the game at the level I am currently at, so while I feel like I've probably sunk about a hundred hours of play into it (it's hard for me to tell given "play time" often overlaps with "development time" as I jump back and forth between the two), my world is still actually rather primitive :)

Still having a ball with it though, and I find myself actually craving more play time these days while I push forward on this final stretch of development.

So what is this "final stretch" that I frequently mention?

Well, what I'm currently trying to do is hit "feature complete" on BTW where I consider it in its "final" form as far as the actual gameplay is concerned, and where I feel it represents a fully cohesive and well integrated experience from start to finish. It's probably what people would have referred to as "beta" back before that word lost all meaning in the online world. That is the point where I'll feel comfortable moving my focus over to RTH, even if I'm popping back to BTW to fix bugs, make tweaks, or even add in the occasional small feature should the mood strike (similar to the post release patch cycle of many games).

So what's left for me to get there?

As you've noticed, I've been putting out releases at a pretty fevered pitch which mainly address the balance between early, mid, and late game BTW. I focused on early game for so long, that I feel it became somewhat disconnected from the "old BTW" that largely revolved around late game tech and automation. The work I'm doing now is intended to bring those two parts of BTW back together into a more cohesive whole, along with integrating a few dangling loose ends from vanilla such as the piston and enchanting table tweaks we saw in the last release. We're almost there at present, and I'd say we're talking a matter of days until it's in a form where I consider that aspect done.

Then, it's on to the things that I've mentioned many times before that need to get done, and which I'll refrain from mentioning again to preserve some sense of mystery, but which constitute the "end game" of BTW, and should transition into RTH from a "story" perspective. Don't worry, I still don't believe in "story" in games, and am just as opposed as ever to the focus many developers put on it, but for those that have been paying attention, this portion of the game should provide the clues necessary to figure out *some* of what has been going on within the world of BTW, and provide *some* hints as to what's to come.

I have a very specific date in mind which I'm trying to hit right now, and unlike in the past, I'm not announcing what that date is publicly so as not to put myself under undue external pressure (or at least the sense of it). This one is for me and me alone. Put another way, I think I'm also trying not to "jinx" it :)

But, suffice it to say, I'm pushing very hard at present to hit it and put a period on the end of the sentence that has been my development of BTW. I mentioned this awhile ago, but I think the "final straw" for me was trying out 1.6 for awhile and realizing that vanilla MC development had degraded to such an extent that I really saw no hope in it coming back anymore. It both depressed the shit out of me that the game had gotten to that stage, and gave me a huge burst of "I've got to get the fuck out of here" motivation. Perhaps there was a part of me in the past that always held out hope that things might turn around, Notch would return to the game or hire an actual designer, or some miracle of another nature would occur, and that lingering part of me finally kicked the bucket with 1.6.

Anyways, that's where things stand. I guess the mood to write a dev diary doesn't strike me very often these days as saying "pushing hard, got to get out of here" over and over again doesn't make for very interesting reading, but I figured I was about due for one today :)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by Feliponius »

We (as in "We who are about to die..." but more specifically "I") have absolute faith that you've got this ship under control. It's been great watching the development of this mod and seeing the way in which you take meticulous care at perfecting every level of play from start to finish. There is a great amount of respect that I have for you and your ability to view each feature as a part of the whole, and balance them accordingly; and to not allow public opinion to "clog up the works" and distract you from the final goal while still seeing valid suggestions as useful and taking the time to include them into your game plan.

Thank you for your dedication to a largely non-profit endeavor that's brought many of us hours of "fun" (DF style fun that is) and ultimately that rewarding feeling that comes from a difficult work accomplished through adversity all while maintaining the actual fun value.

I hope these last few weeks/months/years of finalizing Better Than Wolves provide to you that ultimate high of a great accomplishment. You know we'll be here to appreciate it every step of the way.

Also, I can't wait to purchase RTH when it's available :P

Cheers!

/Sentimentality
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Feliponius wrote: I hope these last few weeks/months/years of finalizing Better Than Wolves provide to you that ultimate high of a great accomplishment.
Hehe...no, that's unfortunately not the way I work. The end of projects for me is usually accompanied by increasing stress and increasingly sleepless nights as the end looms closer and closer.

The sense of accomplishment, celebration, and general "phew" comes immediately after I'm done, and I always make sure to savor it :)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by Eriottosan »

FC, you have given me so much joy with each release of BTW, and yet my greatest joy has been in the (goodness knows how many) updates where I have been unable to play. I am hooked to your mod and this forum, checking it nearly every day - despite having not played MC for at least a year!

I greatly admire your creativity, game design, and commitment to gameplay - which is not least of all demonstrated by your 100-hour world.

I cannot wait for the day I can get a pc and play BTW again - the list of games I want to play is endless, yet there is none for which I am more excited (except perhaps RTH!). I get the feeling that you will probably be all wrapped up by the time I get around to playing next, but that just leaves me more excited. Once I've managed to play, and have cash to spare, you will definitely be seeing some of it. Thanks for everything, FC, and I hope you make it through this final stretch without too much upset!
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FlowerChild
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Eriottosan wrote:I get the feeling that you will probably be all wrapped up by the time I get around to playing next, but that just leaves me more excited.
I honestly feel a bit bad for people at present that have started new worlds and still have all this stuff shifting around beneath them like this. I definitely look forward to hearing about people's experiences and seeing a LPs once all is said and done and we're looking at more or less final balance.

So yeah man, be sure to pop by and let me know how it plays when the time comes :)
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Sage
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by Sage »

Wow, this sounds great! I'm really looking forward to the "untold story". I'm a fan of those, and I want to see what you've come up with, considering your level of quality.

That and the last late tech game changes :)

Thank you for this last effort!
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CreeperCannibal
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by CreeperCannibal »

Man I'm really glad that you're finally getting to that point of sitting back and looking at the masterpiece of a mod and forum community you've made. It saddens me that vanilla had to go and soil itself to all kinds of wankery. At this point I'm only watching vioki's, Icy's and Etho's (For some non exploity redstone and aesthetic ideas) LPs because of how little tolerance I have towards the kind of things everyone else pulls off. But I'm getting off topic here. Main point is I'm glad you finally can move on to your own dreams and goals.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Oh, just wanted to cross post this from MCF. Someone there asked me if BTW would ever update to 1.6, which is something I've been meaning to cover:
FlowerChild wrote: It's been awhile since I addressed this, so I've been meaning to say something on it anyways:

I don't know :)

Right now, installing a mod for 1.6 is as easy (well, actually, as complicated) as it is for 1.5.2 with the new launcher (which is required for 1.6). You have to go through the same tedious process either way, so no real difference what version the mod is for. Installing it for 1.5.2 with the old launcher on the other hand is a lot simpler.

There are no features in 1.6 that motivate me to update to it either, and just a ton I'd have to rip out, so there just isn't much reason to do so overall. The only aspect of 1.6 that excited me was Jeb's "fix" for animals warping through fences and suffocating randomly, I've already integrated that into BTW, and it turns out it doesn't even work anyways.

So, what I've decided is to put off that decision until I am done with "finalizing" BTW. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't benefit players for me to update (I don't think there's a single new vanilla feature I'll leave in BTW, but I need to look at that more closely), and it certainly doesn't benefit me to put in the work required for no good reason, so I'd rather put that question off until later once I have fewer things on my plate.

Thus, my official response is: don't know...will figure it out later :)
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odranoel
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by odranoel »

im sure everyone who plays BTW is in no rush to see it updated to the latest version of MC. as has been said a billion times befor now, for us, BTW has become MC. so ya, i dont think theres anyone who plays and enjoys this mod who reallly cares to see the mod updated for 1.6 or future versions.

and like you said, the only things that had somewhat intrested me are simple things you could add your self in a matter of minutes should you see it benificial to the mod. (like the animal suffocation "fix" or carpets and coal blocks.)

so keep on trucking master flower. we will all be here regardless of what becomes of vanilla. as a side note however i for am actualy quite happy with how crappy vanilla MC has become, as its crappiness has directly influenced and motivated you to make and continiously develop BTW. i know from your point of view it just makes you wanna stick your face in the blender at maximum power. but lets be honest, if VMC was as great as BTW, then we wouldnt have BTW....and i do love me my BTW :) so i guess its kind of a mixed blessing. and we all thank you for putting up with VMC for as long as you have and giving us something ten times better then what we originally fell in love with but quickly got bored of.

cant wait to see what final additions and tweaks you make to this masterpeice.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Hehe...yeah, I can hear what you're saying, as at a personal level, I may not have rediscovered my passion for making games had MC's design and development not gone increasingly off track, and if 1.6 was the final kick in the pants I needed to move on to bigger and better things, then gods bless its every poorly conceived and buggy byte :)

I think I had fallen into an almost never ending cycle of "just one more thing" before 1.6 rolled round and it looks like I needed something to snap me out of that.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Success! I finally just had the "Ooooo! Gold!" reaction while mining that I've been shooting for, for quite awhile now! <dances>
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

...and within 5 minutes had an "Oh...lapis..."

Damn you Lapis!!!! <shakes fist>
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by Thalarctia »

FlowerChild wrote:...and within 5 minutes had an "Oh...lapis..."

Damn you Lapis!!!! <shakes fist>
This excites me way more than it probably should...

Despite you being this desperate to moving on your own stuff, I really do love that you refuse to leave any stone unturned and any item lacking purpose and distinction.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Thalarctia wrote: Despite you being this desperate to moving on your own stuff, I really do love that you refuse to leave any stone unturned and any item lacking purpose and distinction.
Bah...lapis had purpose through the Detector Block, and Buddy. Now though, "purpose" in BTW has become "PURPOSE!!!!" (said in booming voice from on high accompanied by rolling thunder), and lapis just isn't holding up its end of the deal anymore :)

And it's not just items in general. Like, I don't really give a shit about apples or whatever as they just sit there not really hurting anyone. In an ideal world, sure, I'd like them to be a better integrated part of the game, but it's not a pressing concern, and there are too many minor loose ends like that in Minecraft for me to feasibly address them all. However, mineable resources like gold or lapis are such a fundamental aspect of gameplay, that it really sucks when they're so "meh".
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Azdoine
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by Azdoine »

I always search for and mine Lapis no matter what, because the thought of having an anvil and having to wait on Buddy's and DBs seems to be worse than not having RS, Iron, Diamonds, and Gold, in the now.

Just me?
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Azdoine wrote:I always search for and mine Lapis no matter what, because the thought of having an anvil and having to wait on Buddy's and DBs seems to be worse than not having RS, Iron, Diamonds, and Gold, in the now.

Just me?
Well, I think there's a disparity there between early game and late, because when you're just desperately trying to survive and scramble your way up the tech tree, it's a bit of a let down.

Yes, I always mine it too, and keep it for later, but there's very little in the way of immediate reward early on.
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PatriotBob
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by PatriotBob »

Yeah those gold changes actually sent my packing down into my ravine to get some, die, then go get some again. So all in all it looks pretty nice at the moment. :)
Can't wait to see how you finish everything else up.

Yeah Lapis, first vein is exciting, after that you tend to have enough from random finds. Maybe that's why texture packs with nice lapis blocks are important... :P
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by Gilberreke »

I like lapis. Not everything needs to be a super-star. I love that there's a disparity. It also makes this cool mechanic where it's meh for early and middle game and then suddenly becomes exciting again. Diamond kinda goes the other way, where it's fun to find in middle game, but then slowly goes more towards "meh".

It's probably related to why I still think the hand crank is my favorite block :)
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by milkmandan »

Lapis stays exciting until you have your maxed out lapis beacon(s). Diamond is almost the same way, but it taking so much longer to get enough diamonds for it oddly makes the individual diamond ore finds less satisfying as there's not much in the way of appreciable progress towards a new beacon level.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by FlowerChild »

Beacons are something else entirely. "End Game+" or something.

I view the late game purpose of diamonds to revolve more around the Lens.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by BinoAl »

FlowerChild wrote:Beacons are something else entirely. "End Game+" or something.

I view the late game purpose of diamonds to revolve more around the Lens.
Tbh, I've never used the lens all that much, aside from when it came out. It has huge potential, but I just haven't found an automated build that *requires* it, and still have the leftover vanilla mindset of "Diamonds are the most valuable item in the game"
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by SterlingRed »

BinoAl wrote: Tbh, I've never used the lens all that much, aside from when it came out. It has huge potential, but I just haven't found an automated build that *requires* it, and still have the leftover vanilla mindset of "Diamonds are the most valuable item in the game"
Wow. I use lenses rather extensively in everything from day/night timers to vertical signal transmission to wheat/hemp/pumpkin/melon/flower farms. So much so that since the introduction of sfs, I have not made a single diamond tool other than the first pic necessary for nether access since I use all my diamonds in the lens.

And on topic, man I'm so excited to see you move past the constraints of mine craft and finish the epic journey that has been btw. I really hope I can find the time to play the feature complete btw version. Seriously suffering btw withdrawal here. I told my wife the other day that "I was too troubled to sleep."
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by DaveYanakov »

I am also one of those who makes dozens of lenses. Not just for the redstone applications but also for light sources. Looking up into the gloomy ceiling of an undergroud ravine that I have expanded and turned into a base to see tiny pinpricks of light providing illumination for a floor uncluttered by torches or pumpkin lanterns... It's a very special feeling.
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by jkievlan »

FlowerChild wrote:Oh, just wanted to cross post this from MCF. Someone there asked me if BTW would ever update to 1.6, which is something I've been meaning to cover:

(snip)
Really, FC, don't bother. Those of us who care about BTW only care about the version of MC as far as it pertains to running BTW. Ok, well, maybe I shouldn't speak for everyone. But for myself, I will only ever update MC if it's necessary for BTW. Otherwise, I couldn't give two shits.
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Rob
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Re: Flower's Dev Diary (Week of July 22nd)

Post by Rob »

I will only ever update MC if it's necessary for BTW. Otherwise, I couldn't give two shits.
I just want to second this. I used to keep a vanilla world up-to-date just to goof off in. But that was long ago and no longer true. If it's not required for BTW I don't update. You could stay 1.5.2 for forever and a day and it wouldn't phase me in the slightest.
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