4.64 Balance Observations & Discussion

[FlowerChild]

Seeing as how I am continuing to rebalance the entire game in an ongoing rampage, let's have another one of these threads. Heck, I'll even sticky it this time :)

Like last time:

-Please make observations based on *actual gameplay*. If it's not something you've experienced in game, then I don't want to hear it. Please don't engage in theoretical wankery.

-Please be polite. I put a heck of a lot of work into these recent releases, I'd appreciate if people kept that in mind while posting, and there's really no reason to overstate objections in order to make your point. If you have a valid point, I'll listen, and am actually much more likely to listen if it's stated in a reasonable manner.

Issues I'm already aware of that I'll be taking care of in upcoming releases, so they aren't really worth posting about (some carried over from last time as I'm still going to address them):

-Buckets currently feel 'off' in terms of how much iron they require. I'll be adjusting their recipe shortly.

-Additional items, like cocoa and potentially flowers, should be edible. I held off on doing that yet as I'll be making a change soon to increase the resolution of the hunger meter so that you can gain smaller amounts for eating more common items. I've been focusing mostly on "staple" foods so far, with more scavenging/desperate type stuff to come, and obviously you don't want a flower to restore as much hunger as a carrot (with carrots currently giving you the minimum possible hunger with the current system).

[DaveYanakov]

Once food is handled, torches are a non issue so far. Just lots and lots of paving instead which actually results in a more attractive end product. Far more time intensive than torch spam but it has motivated me to do some serious landscaping and base building.

Haven't tackled the early game with the new changes yet but midgame and onward feels bang on.

[FlowerChild]

Currently in the early game I'm hiding in a pitch black hole lamenting that my furnace won't burn without anything to cook.

I think I'll be changing that, as well as implementing a downside to leaving yourself in the pitch black like that. The furnace is now a go to light source for the early game. I'll likely increase burn times with corresponding increase to cook time (like, the relative values will stay the same in terms of 1 coal = 8 items cooked, but over a longer period), because it's currently burning stuff way too quick for that use.

I still have no coal and was burning wood to cook for what I believe is the first time (short of my wood pick axe that I've burned for as long as that was implemented).

Lot more fear here, and my early game situation feels a lot more desperate. So far, I really like it.

[BobSlingblade679]

Still testing. I'm having trouble swallowing this but I trust your judgment so I'll keep testing before I actually post something really meaningful.

I will note that planks just became my staple furnace fuel. I just can't afford to use coal if I want to get to bedrock and start branch mining. I'm probably about thirty blocks down and I ran out of torches which is why I'm gonna use planks for fuel so I can use the coal I foolishly placed in the furnace for torches.

Its definitely more intense so far. I feel like its a real struggle to survive since at night my only real option is to mine but I'm in constant fear of running out of torches and I've actually plucked torches off the wall of caves as I head back out.

[nolaw70]

As far as furnace fuel goes, I have found stripping one or two of the small houses in the abandoned villages (the ones made from logs and planks, with cobble foundations) provides me with more than enough fuel. I have mined a bit over a stack of coal, but only used two so far (to cook my initial stack of cow meat on the first night). After that, only used wood to burn. Also have not made a torch yet, as in "nomad mode" I have only mined once (and that was just a small cave I was in for shelter during the night).

[FlowerChild]

So far, which is part of what I hoped would happen, I am finding that what this does is make descending into the depths something you have to work towards.

Surface level cave exploration is basically *the* source of coal at start, so what I'm finding I'm doing is this: hunting and cave exploring during the day (and fearfully cave exploring at that as I don't want to go too deep and I'm having to abandon certain caves and move on due to the presence of monsters near the surface), then mining (cautiously) and cooking at night.

I think the increased cook time on the furnace will also help with that aspect as well, as it will give you more of a sense of "stuff to do" in your hole at night.

So far, I really like what the combined charcoal and torch changes are doing, but yes, of course like with the other changes I've made, a play style adjustment is in order. You can't just mine straight down to bedrock like you used to and expect it to work out well.

I'm also finding I'm digging out roof tops on surface level caves to let sunlight in and kill monsters, which is a nice little bit of gameplay that I didn't anticipate with this.

Overall, my feeling is this: these changes make light feel like a valuable resource and more of an active gameplay consideration, which is a very good thing IMO given how tied into the mechanics of MC it is.

[Kazuya Mishima]

The increase in value of coal is rather painful particularly at mob trap optimization stage. I have stopped using it for basic illumination particularly because the search for smaller caves in my area has me increasing the surface area required to light as I tunnel about methodically. I have begun to use netherrack to illuminate the depths, the surface and any exploratory channels.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13989288@N ... /lightbox/

[FlowerChild]

If you're at mob-trap stage it's likely you could also be at Kiln stage, which provides you with what is effectively an infinite source of coal.

Try thinking about it in in-game terms as a problem that needs to be solved by the player

[BobSlingblade679]

So far, which is part of what I hoped would happen, I am finding that what this does is make descending into the depths something you have to work towards.
, but yes, of course like with the other changes I've made, a play style adjustment is in order. You can't just mine straight down to bedrock like you used to and expect it to work out well.

...

Overall, my feeling is this: these changes make light feel like a valuable resource and more of an active gameplay consideration, which is a very good thing IMO given how tied into the mechanics of MC it is.

Ok, I've played some more and finally hit bedrock. Coupled with understanding your above intentions I "get it" and I do like it so far. I actually spent a lot of time searching for COAL which is really something I never thought I'd do. Bedrock is definitely a meaningful goal now. I like it.

[Habsnorre]

So, I tested the first few nights a couple of times. Most of them were not so interesting, basically the first day has gone from; getting stone tools to; getting stone tools and food to; getting stone tools, food and coal.

However I had one experience that I think was really cool and worth sharing. I spawned in a plains biome with an abandoned village with a forge and a river. This gave me an idea. I got my tools, killed a bunch of sheep and collected as much sand as I could before nightfall.
Next up was fortifying myself in the forge, so no mobs could harm me. Then I smelted the sand into glass using the furnaces of the forge. Following up with letting the lava drop straight down building glass around it and around the glass a staircase of slabs. Who says you can't just dig straight down? :D

Didn't expect that much from this update to be honest, but this was a nice surprise. Never used this much creativity the first day/night before in minecraft. Great job FC!

[FlowerChild]

Hmmm...ok, I've got to say that I really like the above in-game solution to the lighting problem. Makes both good use of the coal changes and HC Buckets to channel the lava, plus it involves a fair amount of risk given the "oops" factor in dealing with lava.

Also makes coming across a surface level lava deposit quite valuable. It was totally unanticipated, but I really like the implications here.

Another possible way to do this is to dig a lava channel one block lower next to your staircase so the lava flows downwards along side it. Definitely more dangerous given you can fall in, but if you don't have sand or want to use the glass, it sounds practical to me.

EDIT: And I suspect it also tends to increase the possibility of using lava as a makeshift weapon should you break into a cave filled with monsters while digging down. Ok...I really like this one. I'm a big fan of Steve using the environment to his advantage in battle given that one of MC's primary strengths is the player's ability to alter the world so extensively :)

[FlowerChild]

Got a question for you guys feeling motivated to use netherrack as a light source instead of torches now:

What do you feel is the motivation to do so over grinding said netherrack into hellfire dust, then using the dust to make nethercoal and torches at present?

The cost in wood? The scarcity of coal? Not high enough in the tech tree to make use of that? Nethercoal isn't efficient enough to justify? Hadn't thought of that potential solution?

I'm trying to pinpoint the motivation here so that I can hopefully address this at a balance level rather than take further measures like netherrack going out in the rain. If you could try to analyze the impulse you're having then, I'd be much obliged, as I don't really like the idea of everything being lit by netherrack at a certain point instead of torches, so it's definitely something I'll try to iron out.

This largely seems to be a middle-game specific problem to me.

[Foxy Boxes]

Personally, it's because netherrack is so abundant and easy to deploy. It's just place, select flint 'n' steel, click, done. Whereas to make nethercoal I'd need to get coal, grind it, grind the netherrack, stick the results in a cauldron, then after all that crafting the torches before placing them. And of course, there's the effort of setting up the framework for making nethercoal.

[obl1terat1ion]

That being said in the long term you WILL be using a fair amount of iron making flint and steel. so... perhaps the durability should be lowered on flint and steel or make it use real steel...

[FlowerChild]

That being said in the long term you WILL be using a fair amount of iron making flint and steel. so... perhaps the durability should be lowered on flint and steel or make it use real steel...

No suggestions please. I want observations to help me diagnose potential problems, not solutions.

[OldMarriedDude]

I used my lava pool to light my stairwell to bedrock as mentioned above- its a very cool effect. As far as using netherrack for lighting i use it now because I havnt made it far enough in the tech tree to make the nethercoal. That said, in light of the new changes I have set aside an area specifically for a nethercoal machine. Now Im off to re-find my base, hopefully I will locate some clay along the way.

[SterlingRed]

I'll be honest in that I haven't played with the latest release yet. But about nether coal, I don't really use it in my current play style in any stage of the game. Since beacons I've always hoarded hell fire dust for hellfire blocks. And by late game I've fully transitioned to blood wood farms for my soul supply and never mine netherrack again. I'll definitely see if the coal changes in this release give me an incentive to use nether coal more. With this change there may be enough incentive to use hellfire dust to get a bit more out of my coal. Unfortunately I'm a few days away from being able to play again.

[FlowerChild]

I used my lava pool to light my stairwell to bedrock as mentioned above- its a very cool effect. As far as using netherrack for lighting i use it now because I havnt made it far enough in the tech tree to make the nethercoal. That said, in light of the new changes I have set aside an area specifically for a nethercoal machine. Now Im off to re-find my base, hopefully I will locate some clay along the way.

Thanks man. I think this can be resolved through balancing the numbers rather than making functionality changes. I actually *do* like netherrack becoming the lighting of choice at a particular stage of the tech-tree, as it provides another incremental reward for gaining access to the nether, but what I don't want is for that stage to go on indefinitely and dominate base design.

I think the solution likely lays in the nethercoal recipe. It's likely not efficient enough with regards to torch use to justify the effort, or make torches regain their dominance at the point where you gain access to it.

Hehe...I was rather leery that nerthercoal would ever really become a properly integrated part of the tech tree, but I suspect that's exactly what will happen shortly :)

[FlowerChild]

I'll be honest in that I haven't played with the latest release yet.

Please read the OP with regards to theoretical wankery man. I'm really not interested in those kinds of observations here.

[Gabecraft1234]

Keep in mind that in order to light areas with netherrack you first need to have found at least three diamonds, and now with it takes 9 iron ore to make a flint and steal.

[FlowerChild]

Keep in mind that in order to light areas with netherrack you first need to have found at least three diamonds, and now with it takes 9 iron ore to make a flint and steal.

Like I said...I don't object to it being used as a light source, and actually like that aspect. What I don't want is for it to wind up dominating the game and being the only thing you see used in extensive builds as a result.

It also doesn't take 9 ore for flint and steel either, so I'd ask you to take your wankery elsewhere until you've actually played the release and are making observations based on it instead of random interjections.

EDIT: The temp-banning has commenced.

[FlowerChild]

With regards to off-topic or what is otherwise wankery guys:

You may have noticed that these threads have been extremely significant over the past few releases with regards to me making game-changing balance adjustments based on the info discussed within. I've made major changes to the game in direct response to what has been said here.

Please respect that and don't drag the threads off course, pissing me off in the process that I have to read through irrelevancies as they may contain valid observations. I *really* want to be able to discuss these things with people actively playing the game as they help me immensely in my ongoing efforts to rebalance MC and really bring out the fun in the systems present within the game.

I think you all know how much I value my own time in terms of its effective use. Please keep that in mind here.

[Habsnorre]

I think the solution likely lays in the nethercoal recipe. It's likely not efficient enough with regards to torch use to justify the effort, or make torches regain their dominance at the point where you gain access to it.

Hehe...I was rather leery that nerthercoal would ever really become a properly integrated part of the tech tree, but I suspect that's exactly what will happen shortly :)

I really like your idea with nethercoal, if I understand it correctly. You suggest being able to craft multiple torches with it? Anyway, would be cool if nethercoal would get a more prominent function.

In other news:
My recent forge build has made me explode with creativity using generated structures. Blasted my way down the earth with powder kegs from a pyramid. Tried using a well from a abandoned village as a save entrance to my house (drowned by accident, but still a valid idea right?). Right now I'm abusing an abandoned mineshaft for free rails. Never used this in the early game, it's high risk high reward. However it made me feel that the powered rails recipe doesn't fit any more. Gold and redstone aren't that useful early game (at least not for me right now), so making the powered rails is no big deal. Don't know if this is the place to make a small suggestion, but I'll do it anyway (if it's not the place it will be my last in this treat). What if you made the powered rail an anvil recipe? Automatic rails feel like late game tech. And more importantly it would make me spend another 5 iron on a furnace cart, which will also use coal. Since your latest changes are aimed at iron and coal it made sense to me. What do you think?

[FlowerChild]

(if it's not the place it will be my last in this treat)

Indeed it will be. On these forums too.

[8bitBob]

Hmm, damn. I started a new world just before this update and self limited myself to making charcoal in the kiln, but didn't anticipate the less torches per coal.

But I will say I /love/ charcoal being tied to the tech tree. Charcoal was something I actually always hated and tried not to use, but this was a much more elegant solution. One design I've worked on over and over again is a sort of personal use, user friendly auto kiln. While I love it in concept, there wasn't actually that many uses to it before hand. Most things were either fully automated or could be done with the furnace. This gives you a really damn good reason to have an auto kiln sitting in easy reach around your world.

This is the kind of kiln I mean. Something you can just walk up to and drop whatever you want into and it does the rest.

Spoiler

Show

Anyway, off to rip up all of my torches and burn 3/4ths of them and then update. I apologize if this observation is unwanted because I wasn't technically playing the update yet.