Better Than Wolves Forum

Just decided to pop this up to avoid having conversations about this spring up elsewhere. If you have a question about RTH (The Return to Home), please pose it here. I won't guarantee I'll answer, but at least it will keep this information centralized, and hopefully others can provide links to information I've already made known.

I'll sticky this since it seems to be an ongoing topic for the community.

Will it be voxel based like in minecraft? Or something else, like Don't Starve (not sure what it's called when things have an exact point like the bushes/trees/carrots have in Don't Starve).

Okay this one's been playing across my mind:
To what degree will RTH be similar to vanilla Minecraft?

Why not post an "All encompassing (but not really) statement" on it? Describe what it is to the newer members, and prevent some of the more common questions from being asked?

DNoved1 wrote:Will it be voxel based like in minecraft?

Yup, this is almost certain. For a long time I was trying to avoid doing something so akin to MC, as I really don't like the idea of making a "clone", but eventually I decided I needed to get over that sentiment as voxel-based games are precisely what I am most interested in working on at present, and precisely what I've spent the last couple of years building up experience in working on.

To me, this is really the new frontier of game development, and thus is an area that is wide open in terms of innovation, which is why I find it so incredibly exciting to work on, and ultimately, why I was willing to devote two years of my working on such stuff mostly for free (or at the very least...at a small fraction of what I could have been making developing commercially).

So yeah, in the end, I'm not willing to let go of that and thus tie one hand behind my back by not allowing myself to work on something that taps fully into my current strengths as a designer.

In answer to both this and the question that followed, there will thus be a lot of superficial similarities between vanilla MC and RTH. Both will likely be voxel-based first person games with a survival element. Obviously, the actual game design beyond those basic parameters will be radically different.

BinoAl wrote:Why not post an "All encompassing (but not really) statement" on it? Describe what it is to the newer members, and prevent some of the more common questions from being asked?

My finite lifespan? :)

As I mention in the OP, it would be very helpful if people posted links to existing information when relevant to a question. I'm trying very hard not to get too distracted at present, and retreading that same ground is not an effective use of my of my time in trying to wrap up BTW.

I will likely be making full statements in the future on what's going to happen, but that wasn't my intention in creating this thread. Rather, I was just trying to provide a centralized location for this kind of stuff in the meantime.

Will RTH be a free game, or will we need to buy the game? I will probably get the game either way. I just ask because I am curious.

sin6il wrote:Will RTH be a free game, or will we need to buy the game? I will probably get the game either way. I just ask because I am curious.

Well as he said he is looking in to kickstarter so its a safe bet you will be paying for it.

sin6il wrote:Will RTH be a free game, or will we need to buy the game? I will probably get the game either way. I just ask because I am curious.

That's not the kind of topic I'm willing to discuss at this time. The business end of this is something that I'll obviously need to consider a great deal, and not something I want to discuss publicly until it's all sorted out.

Is RTH gonna be a whole new game? What I mean is, its gonna be started from scratch, not built on top of the MC code?

Oh, I will say one thing on the business end of things:

I'm considering a number of different models, everything from commercial sale to the Dwarf Fortress-esque donation-based model, so nothing is really off the table at this point.

However, it is worth noting that my goal is to make the move towards being an independent developer that lives solely off his trade with RTH while making good design the priority of what I'm doing rather than monetary gain.

Basically, I don't desire to get rich off my efforts, just be able to get by so that I can work on what I love full time.

But yes, this is not a topic I wish to discuss publicly, so the above will have to serve as my statement on the matter for the time being.

You mentioned that it's going to be voxel-based. I do agree that with modern technology this is an amazing direction to go in, but as far as the how...

Are you thinking straight forward voxel - Like Minecraft
Or something a little smoother - Marching cube, etc.. (there's a bunch)

I only ask because both are technically volumetric in the back-end. but present the same data differently. One smooth the other, well like Minecraft.

jorgebonafe wrote:Is RTH gonna be a whole new game? What I mean is, its gonna be started from scratch, not built on top of the MC code?

Yup, that's almost definite at this point.

The BWF episode pretty much finished off any remaining desire I had to remain associated with the MC community, and given that I agree less and less with the direction vanilla MC is headed in, I've come to realize that in the long term, being tied to it, its update schedule, and any architecture changes that they decide to make beyond my control, continuing to work with MC code-base is likely more trouble than making the personal investment of creating my own architecture to base my work on.

This will likely also be good news for the game's design as it will give me the flexibility to establish the architecture in such a way that it's precisely suited to the kind of features I want to implement, instead of trying to jury-rig them onto an existing code base.

PatriotBob wrote:You mentioned that it's going to be voxel-based. I do agree that with modern technology this is an amazing direction to go in, but as far as the how...

Are you thinking straight forward voxel - Like Minecraft
Or something a little smoother - Marching cube, etc.. (there's a bunch)

I only ask because both are technically volumetric in the back-end. but present the same data differently. One smooth the other, well like Minecraft.

I'll be making some refinements, but I'm definitely not going the route of other "MC clones" in terms of "hurr durr...better graphics is better".

The focus of RTH is going to be on *the game*, not trying to push the technology in the graphics or fidelity department. Thus, my primary considerations with regards to the engine are in terms of supporting more complex interactions between game elements rather than making everything look purtier :)

One of the aspects of MC that struck me as brilliant from the very start was Notch's willingness to sacrifice visual fidelity to provide a richer gameplay experience, and it's one of the reasons commercial dev studios are basically incapable of replicating something like MC. RTH will be designed with a very similar (if not identical) philosophy. It really will be all about the game, and if anything, will be even more focused on it than MC is, ditching a lot of the extraneous bells and whistles (like optional modes of play) that have detracted from MC's long-term health IMO.

Do you plan to continue the design focus of BTW? By that I mean a focus on automation? How much of the concepts from BTW do you see showing up in RTH? Mechanical power? Pottery?

Sarudak wrote:Do you plan to continue the design focus of BTW? By that I mean a focus on automation? How much of the concepts from BTW do you see showing up in RTH? Mechanical power? Pottery?

Some definitely, but that will be in the longer term rather than the short. Initially, development will likely be focused on the bare bones aspects that comprise the game. The "vanilla" of BTW if you will.

Eventually though, yes, automation and industrialization will definitely be a large part of the overall design, again playing to the strengths of the experience I've accumulated over the last couple of years.

The nice part though, will be that such systems will be designed from the ground up, rather than being added to an existing game and systems, affording me a lot more flexibility in how they work, and also allowing me to correct a number of the mistakes I made along the way with BTW.

In the end, I'm certain we'll wind up with *much* stronger automation gameplay than in BTW, which isn't too shabby already, if I do say so myself ;)

How long do you imagine you'll spend working on infrastructure before releasing a beginning playable version?

How long do you see yourself continuing to work on RTH? Another 2 years?

Will we be moving to new forums? :P

FlowerChild wrote:

PatriotBob wrote:You mentioned that it's going to be voxel-based. I do agree that with modern technology this is an amazing direction to go in, but as far as the how...

Are you thinking straight forward voxel - Like Minecraft
Or something a little smoother - Marching cube, etc.. (there's a bunch)

I only ask because both are technically volumetric in the back-end. but present the same data differently. One smooth the other, well like Minecraft.

I'll be making some refinements, but I'm definitely not going the route of other "MC clones" in terms of "hurr durr...better graphics is better".

The focus of RTH is going to be on *the game*, not trying to push the technology in the graphics or fidelity department. Thus, my primary considerations with regards to the engine are in terms of supporting more complex interactions between game elements rather than making everything look purtier :)

Oh naturally. I think you've made your stance on visuals vs game-play blatantly apparent in numerous previous posts.

In my, albeit small experience, I found marching cube to run faster and look nicer. In my mind it's a performance issue not so much visual. Every cycle I save, is one I can spend elsewhere on more important things. :)

The question was purely to see if it had crossed your radar. I look forward to where you take RTH.

Back on topic: Do you see us continuing our inter-planar travels once we've returned to "Home"? Or was our inadvertent trip to minecraft a one time thing...

Sarudak wrote:How long do you imagine you'll spend working on infrastructure before releasing a beginning playable version?

How long do you see yourself continuing to work on RTH? Another 2 years?

Will we be moving to new forums? :P

Yeah, don't flood me with meta-game related details like this man. Some aren't settled, some I'm not willing to discuss yet, all will be resolved in time and are not particularly relevant at this point.

The one I will answer is about how long I'll work on RTH: indefinitely. Once I establish the underlying architecture I plan to base my work on it until the wheels fall off.

I'm in no way bored of designing for MC after two years, and could likely easily keep going like this for another 5 (or more). What I am tired of is the general community and the direction vanilla has been taking.

Given creating my own game would free me of that nonsense, I don't see myself ever getting tired of working on it.

Here is a straightforward one:

Java or C++? i remember you mentioning that before minecraft you primarily programmed with C++

ada221 wrote: Java or C++? i remember you mentioning that before minecraft you primarily programmed with C++

Meta-game question, which again I'd prefer to avoid, but likely C++.

There's a few things I dislike about Java as a programmer which I've brought up before (obfuscated pass by reference/pass by value, lack of a precompiler, etc.), and the whole BWF episode really highlighted to me that I don't want to be making a game that can be easily deobfuscated and thus reverse engineered.

Ah, so that's what RTH is! I do have a few questions, if I may:

- I assume you'll be the head of this project. If so, will you be working on it by yourself, or with a team?

- I've seen mentions of wrapping up BTW so I guess this is the reason why. When do you expect to start working on RTH, roughly?

- (dependant on your chosen business model) Will you allow early purchasers access to alpha and beta builds in the same style as MC?

In an effort to direct things in a more not-meta-game direction.

Do you see RTH sticking with the same era of technology? (Windmills, etc)

In BTW you worked on Ages, do you plan on continuing that, so that updates will add tiers to the tech tree?

This is a bit superficial, but will you be keeping the name BTW as reference to what started it all, or simply calling it RTH?
EDIT: Also, what are your plans for modding support? As cool as it would be to have modding capabilities, I'd hate to see things ruined by inventory editors and the like

In the spirit of providing links:

SilenV wrote: - I've seen mentions of wrapping up BTW so I guess this is the reason why. When do you expect to start working on RTH, roughly?

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6832

FlowerChild wrote: To that end, I've decided that one way or another, BTW will be finalized by the end of this month and I'll be busting my ass over the next little while to make that happen. This will likely mean that I'll be saying "no" to even more stuff than I usually do because I simply can not allow myself to be distracted if I'm going to hit that deadline, and if I don't make that deadline, I know that I can easily slip into letting this "finalization" process drag on indefinitely.

SilenV wrote: - I've seen mentions of wrapping up BTW so I guess this is the reason why. When do you expect to start working on RTH, roughly?

I made a statement on this earlier today in my dev diary thread, so I'll repeat it here for reference:

My current goal is to wrap up BTW by the end of this month, and move onto full-time RTH development immediately after that. I may take a day or two off for a quick breather and to put the period at the end of the BTW sentence from a personal standpoint (I'm a firm believer in marking special occasions and celebrating small victories), but I want to get onto it as quickly as possible afterwards.

This is the most delicate stage of a game's development where you can easily become overwhelmed by the massive amount of work ahead of you. From experience, I know that the only cure to that is get to work and start making progress towards your end goals.

"The journey of a thousand miles..." and all that :)