The following post is about time travel, so do not read if you do not intend the think fairly hard. And it has absolutely nothing to do with Minecraft.
Some friends and I are in the first stages of producing a time-travel based short film that will hopefully be YouTube quality. The film is based on the time travel system in the movie Primer, which adds much depth and realism because of its limited properties. Since there seems to be many intelligent people in this community, I thought this would be a good place to seek help with some issues.
How My Idea of Time Travel Works
The time machine is a jumbo coffin-sized container that you lay down in in order to travel through time. Lets follow the journey of Moe through the machine.
Moe sets a 15 minute timer on the machine at 1:45 and goes away. The machine turns on at 2:00, and continues to run until Moe comes back and turns it off at 3:00. As it is powering down, Moe gets in. For Moe, time is now flowing backwards, and he is traveling from 3:00 to 2:00. Moe gets out when the machine is powering up at 2:00, and is now existing simultaneously as his former self that hasn't yet gotten in. As long as his former self still gets in the machine at 3:00, all is well for Moe. Maybe.
Here is where it gets funky. The original Moe sets a timer on the machine so that he isn't there when the machine turns on, and isn't there to see his future self emerge. Well, this is on the false assumption that his past self will emerge. There is nothing to cause anyone to emerge, because no one has gotten in the machine yet. When Moe enters the machine, he is not only going back in time, but he is going to a reality where Moe gets out of the machine at 2:00. When Moe(2) gets out of the machine, he may encounter Moe(1) and may even prevent Moe(1) from getting in the machine at 3:00. There aren't any paradoxes, because it wasn't Moe(1) that causes Moe(2) to exist by going int he machine. It was the Moe(1) of another reality that entered the machine and became Moe(2) of this reality. Now two Moe's exist. Permanently.
This isn't my problem. My issue is infinite loops.
Moe gets in the machine at 3:00 with the number 1 written on a paper. He gets out, and gives that piece of paper to his past self, who writes a 2 on it before getting in at 3:00. That Moe gets out and gives the paper to the former version of himself who writes a 3 on it, and gets in the machine at 3:00. As you can see, this loops keeps going over and over again until the paper is full of numbers. But it doesn't stop there. You don't have to do anything special to make this happen. The very fact that you came from a reality where a certain version of yourself came out of the machine makes you unique when you get inside. Because you are unique, the next reality you emerge in will be unique because of who emerged in it. This is an infinite loop that makes determining who will come out of the machine difficult.
My intention was to make this version of time travel result in a "prime line", a timeline that is final and is the "real" reality until the time machine is used again. This adds a closure and absoluteness, but also doesn't work. If time travel goes in infinite loops, then there are an infinite number of possibilities of who could come out of the time machine in the "real" reality. In the real reality, someone comes out of the time machine every time you turn it on, rather you get in or not. It wouldn't be recognized as a time machine, it would be recognized as a random human generation machine.
This is why I need help. Some factor has to be added to this system so that I can follow a story through a chain of time traveling events. If there is a set of infinite timelines, all equally likely, then what logic do I use to follow a particular chain of events to the end of the film? Though the audience may not realize the problems with the time travel system, they will see the repercussions of the design, and so will the characters.
I hope I have tickled your brains, and I hope that some of you can come up with factors to change that fix these issues.
Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
Estimated airspeed velocity of an unladen European swallow: 24 mph
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Eriottosan
- Posts: 656
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Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
I'm afraid I both see, and don't see, your problem.
First of all, this is not the kind of time travel I subscribe to, so I'm not used to thinking about it, so ... yeah.
So I get your problem, but I also think that the solution is pretty much in the details of what you wrote.
For any one event, any one reality will contain 0, 1, or 2 Moes. 2 Moes can't emerge from the machine at the same time. If you have Moe enter the machine, and noone takes his place, then the number of Moes is 0. If he enters it and someone emerges, then it's 1. And if he emerges and prevents the version of himself in that reality from entering the machine, it's 2.
And any infinite loop isn't really infinite. Somewhere there must be an end, where the emergent prevents himself from entering, and by the same logic, there must be a start, where noone emerges. As there are infinite realities, eventually the end must occur, and the beginning if you work backwards, whether it takes 2 realities or 1000.
As far as following a chain of events goes, as I see it, you can either follow one (or a number) of Moes (Moe Mk I, Moe Mk 12, for example), or you can follow one (or a number) of realities.
First of all, this is not the kind of time travel I subscribe to, so I'm not used to thinking about it, so ... yeah.
So I get your problem, but I also think that the solution is pretty much in the details of what you wrote.
For any one event, any one reality will contain 0, 1, or 2 Moes. 2 Moes can't emerge from the machine at the same time. If you have Moe enter the machine, and noone takes his place, then the number of Moes is 0. If he enters it and someone emerges, then it's 1. And if he emerges and prevents the version of himself in that reality from entering the machine, it's 2.
And any infinite loop isn't really infinite. Somewhere there must be an end, where the emergent prevents himself from entering, and by the same logic, there must be a start, where noone emerges. As there are infinite realities, eventually the end must occur, and the beginning if you work backwards, whether it takes 2 realities or 1000.
As far as following a chain of events goes, as I see it, you can either follow one (or a number) of Moes (Moe Mk I, Moe Mk 12, for example), or you can follow one (or a number) of realities.
私は日本語が大好きだ。だから、私と話すとき、日本語で書けば、日本語で書いてください。
I like Japanese, can you tell?
I like Japanese, can you tell?
Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
I'm not sure your infinite loop scenario is really problematic. There are an infinite number of alternate realities, each one being equally "real." There are theories that apply this to our own universe, in which there may be alternate universes in which the movie Primer was made, but in which they followed a different one of the timelines in the movie.
What differentiates the timeline that is "real" to us from all the "alternate" ones is the presence of an observer. Because the camera that filmed the movie in our universe was one that followed Aaron and Abe through one particular path, that is the one that we see.
So in your infinite loop scenario, there's no reason why you can't just pick any one arbitrary timeline--say, the one where your character emerges with 771 numbers on his paper, then chooses not to continue--to be canonical.
What differentiates the timeline that is "real" to us from all the "alternate" ones is the presence of an observer. Because the camera that filmed the movie in our universe was one that followed Aaron and Abe through one particular path, that is the one that we see.
So in your infinite loop scenario, there's no reason why you can't just pick any one arbitrary timeline--say, the one where your character emerges with 771 numbers on his paper, then chooses not to continue--to be canonical.
Make add-ons, not suggestions.
Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
I think, there is a way to resolve your dilemma ussing logic, but it may not be useful to you!
Here goes, I hope you like your brain twisted in return!
By using the machine, Moe travels to a place in the space time continuum which was impossible for himself to get to by any other means. He could quite literally never meet himself, he is out of sync with his own timeline. Imagine a simple graph with an e and a t axis. Really the graph would be a 5 dimensional graph with an x, y z, e and t axis but lets ignore movement in the x, y and z axis for simplicitys sake, it's not important. e is important, this is a universal dimensional constant and is worked out by some rather spiffing use of Einsteins theory of special relativity. It fixes you to a dimension and even Moes machine cannot break it. In fiction, the wormholes in Sliders allowed movement along this e axis, but their machine was explicitly not a time machine!!!
So on this graph, your movement is fixed, normally. It will be a dull straight line as you cannot move through dimensions nor time travel normally!
Now imagine Moe sits still on in his machine at 1.00, playing tetris on his gameboy. He switches it on at 2 and returns to his game. At three he puts his gameboy down next to the machine, climbs in and moves back along the t axis to 2.00 and gets out. What does he see? Well his own self is not where he is, it's on a different point of the e axis, even though the x, y, z and t points are the same, he has continued to move at a steady rate along e. So he doesn't see himself, his gameboy, nothing at all because everything in his world exists on an infinitely thin line on the e axis. Everything he sees never existed in his dimension, even though it is exactly the same (The whole everything in alternative dimensions is slightly different does not come into this because, while I'm not ruling that possibility out, the only dimensions that can be travelled to in a time machine are identical copies). What he does see is Moe(2), gameboy(2) in dimension(2). If he has a piece of paper in his pocket with 1 written on it and gives it to Moe(2) and moe(2) writes 2 next to the 1 on it and puts it in his pocket (next to the identical piece of paper with 1 on it), that's the last he will see of that paper. He will not see Moe(2) again if he lets Moe(2) get into the machine.
Moe(2) gets into the machine and travels. He emerges and sees Moe(3). Moe(3) is not Moe(1). So when he hands over the piece of paper, Moe(3) now has two pieces of paper in his pocket - one with 1 that he wrote on it, the other that Moe(2) gave him with 1 and 2 written on it. and so on and so forth.
Eventually (if you believe in free will) the cycle will be broken and Moe(x) will not get into the machine. In that case, Moe(x) and Moe(x-1) exist basically as identical twins - much shenanigans ensue, I'm sure! But remember in dimension(1) Moes friends and family are grieving the disappearance of Moe (So the point where Moe time travels creates a divergence in the dimensions which were previously identical UNLESS Moes friends and family continue to act as they would have if Moe was there because in all the other dimensions Moe is still there, and they are physically unable to act any different - a girlfriend who is trapped in a relationship with no-one, able to seemingly break the laws of physics and fly (when in every other dimension he is carrying her) Althouhg, rather bleakly, in the dimension with 2 Moes, Moe(x) is basically a phantom, he cannot interact with the world or any people as they can only react now to Moe(x-1). Doors are unopenable, people ignore him. The only way to break it is to travel to dimension(x+1) and force that fate on another Moe - this direction may be a bit bleak, depends on how you want your film to turn out really)
Hope that's helped and I'm not trying to be too clever for my own good. As a side note, I'm also working on my own short film for the internet and am always up for discussion on any aspect of the process! Feel free to get in touch via PM !
Here goes, I hope you like your brain twisted in return!
By using the machine, Moe travels to a place in the space time continuum which was impossible for himself to get to by any other means. He could quite literally never meet himself, he is out of sync with his own timeline. Imagine a simple graph with an e and a t axis. Really the graph would be a 5 dimensional graph with an x, y z, e and t axis but lets ignore movement in the x, y and z axis for simplicitys sake, it's not important. e is important, this is a universal dimensional constant and is worked out by some rather spiffing use of Einsteins theory of special relativity. It fixes you to a dimension and even Moes machine cannot break it. In fiction, the wormholes in Sliders allowed movement along this e axis, but their machine was explicitly not a time machine!!!
So on this graph, your movement is fixed, normally. It will be a dull straight line as you cannot move through dimensions nor time travel normally!
Now imagine Moe sits still on in his machine at 1.00, playing tetris on his gameboy. He switches it on at 2 and returns to his game. At three he puts his gameboy down next to the machine, climbs in and moves back along the t axis to 2.00 and gets out. What does he see? Well his own self is not where he is, it's on a different point of the e axis, even though the x, y, z and t points are the same, he has continued to move at a steady rate along e. So he doesn't see himself, his gameboy, nothing at all because everything in his world exists on an infinitely thin line on the e axis. Everything he sees never existed in his dimension, even though it is exactly the same (The whole everything in alternative dimensions is slightly different does not come into this because, while I'm not ruling that possibility out, the only dimensions that can be travelled to in a time machine are identical copies). What he does see is Moe(2), gameboy(2) in dimension(2). If he has a piece of paper in his pocket with 1 written on it and gives it to Moe(2) and moe(2) writes 2 next to the 1 on it and puts it in his pocket (next to the identical piece of paper with 1 on it), that's the last he will see of that paper. He will not see Moe(2) again if he lets Moe(2) get into the machine.
Moe(2) gets into the machine and travels. He emerges and sees Moe(3). Moe(3) is not Moe(1). So when he hands over the piece of paper, Moe(3) now has two pieces of paper in his pocket - one with 1 that he wrote on it, the other that Moe(2) gave him with 1 and 2 written on it. and so on and so forth.
Eventually (if you believe in free will) the cycle will be broken and Moe(x) will not get into the machine. In that case, Moe(x) and Moe(x-1) exist basically as identical twins - much shenanigans ensue, I'm sure! But remember in dimension(1) Moes friends and family are grieving the disappearance of Moe (So the point where Moe time travels creates a divergence in the dimensions which were previously identical UNLESS Moes friends and family continue to act as they would have if Moe was there because in all the other dimensions Moe is still there, and they are physically unable to act any different - a girlfriend who is trapped in a relationship with no-one, able to seemingly break the laws of physics and fly (when in every other dimension he is carrying her) Althouhg, rather bleakly, in the dimension with 2 Moes, Moe(x) is basically a phantom, he cannot interact with the world or any people as they can only react now to Moe(x-1). Doors are unopenable, people ignore him. The only way to break it is to travel to dimension(x+1) and force that fate on another Moe - this direction may be a bit bleak, depends on how you want your film to turn out really)
Hope that's helped and I'm not trying to be too clever for my own good. As a side note, I'm also working on my own short film for the internet and am always up for discussion on any aspect of the process! Feel free to get in touch via PM !
7 months, 37 different border checks and counting.
Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
For the first two posts:
What you say makes sense, and has solidified the idea that if I go with this system, I have to pick a chain of events that tells the best story. Unfortunately, this makes no chain of events more significant than the next because they all are equally possible and equally real. Whether someone comes out of the machine or not is entirely dependent on the storytelling of the film, and not on consistent and logical rules. This is why I wanted someone to come up with a tweak that would enable a single timeline reality. This doesn't mean that there can't be multiple timelines, but that they can't be "real" simultaneously. This also doesn't mean that random chance isn't involved, just that the time travelers are not totally at the mercy of chance.
The last post:
Thank you. I really wanted someone to come up with an idea that is mostly original and unique, and makes an interesting story. You did just that. Most likely I won't go with this because of how far it goes from standard reality, but I will definitely keep it in mind! I will surely message you for your expertise on film making.
What you say makes sense, and has solidified the idea that if I go with this system, I have to pick a chain of events that tells the best story. Unfortunately, this makes no chain of events more significant than the next because they all are equally possible and equally real. Whether someone comes out of the machine or not is entirely dependent on the storytelling of the film, and not on consistent and logical rules. This is why I wanted someone to come up with a tweak that would enable a single timeline reality. This doesn't mean that there can't be multiple timelines, but that they can't be "real" simultaneously. This also doesn't mean that random chance isn't involved, just that the time travelers are not totally at the mercy of chance.
The last post:
Thank you. I really wanted someone to come up with an idea that is mostly original and unique, and makes an interesting story. You did just that. Most likely I won't go with this because of how far it goes from standard reality, but I will definitely keep it in mind! I will surely message you for your expertise on film making.
Estimated airspeed velocity of an unladen European swallow: 24 mph
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Uristqwerty
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Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
The way I see it, in a single timeline reality that allows for time travel, there are two types of loop. In the first type, the loop alters the past slightly (even a single particle simply being in a different state) each time it repeats. In the second type of loop, it repeats exactly the same, down to the last detail of unexplored physics. The first loop will eventually either repeat, or, after a finite (but perhaps incomprehensibly large) number of iterations, break.
In the case of a completely stable loop, the existence of the time travel event simply merges into the timeline as a fact, and everything continues on its way. An unstable loop continues to iterate until it breaks or evolves into a stable loop. However, that leaves one other outcome: A loop which alternates through a sequence of versions, then repeats itself, endlessly cycling through possibilities. It's stable, but it doesn't collapse into a single timeline, so I have no idea how it could work.
In the case of a completely stable loop, the existence of the time travel event simply merges into the timeline as a fact, and everything continues on its way. An unstable loop continues to iterate until it breaks or evolves into a stable loop. However, that leaves one other outcome: A loop which alternates through a sequence of versions, then repeats itself, endlessly cycling through possibilities. It's stable, but it doesn't collapse into a single timeline, so I have no idea how it could work.
Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
i cant express just how much i love these kinds of questions/debates! :D
ok so from what i understand your main issue is that simply getting into the machine once will create an infinet number of alternat time lines, and this presents an issue for the story teller because....well which story do you tell? well i guess the most obvious sulution would be to simply follow the story of the original moe.
alternatly something could happen to the machine when moe 1 gets out and prevents moe 2 from entering it. this would break the infinet loop. as keep in mind everytime you use the machine you create an alternate timeline identical to the original one up to the moment you first emerg from the machine. so when moe 1 gets out of the machine something could happen to the mahcine ( moe 1 breaks it accidentally or something) and prevents moe 2 from entering it and continuing the infinet loop.
so in that case you only have 2 time lines. the original one where moe 1 gets in the machine. and then timeline 2 where moe 1 emerges and for what ever reason prevents moe 2 from entering it and continuing the infinet loop. so now in one time line moe 1 has seemingly disapeared from the face of the earth, and in timeline two there are two moe's one being just one hour older then the other, but identical in every other way, up until the moment they meet.
....also did some one say infinity? i love infinities...rant time!
either way best of luck with your film! i look forward to see what you come up with :)
Edit to add: slightly off topic, but if anyone is intrested, they actually have a blue print for a real time machine! in theory this thing should work! its all about being able to get lasers powerful enough to do what they need to do, but in theory this machine should work without breaking the laws of physics!
ok so from what i understand your main issue is that simply getting into the machine once will create an infinet number of alternat time lines, and this presents an issue for the story teller because....well which story do you tell? well i guess the most obvious sulution would be to simply follow the story of the original moe.
alternatly something could happen to the machine when moe 1 gets out and prevents moe 2 from entering it. this would break the infinet loop. as keep in mind everytime you use the machine you create an alternate timeline identical to the original one up to the moment you first emerg from the machine. so when moe 1 gets out of the machine something could happen to the mahcine ( moe 1 breaks it accidentally or something) and prevents moe 2 from entering it and continuing the infinet loop.
so in that case you only have 2 time lines. the original one where moe 1 gets in the machine. and then timeline 2 where moe 1 emerges and for what ever reason prevents moe 2 from entering it and continuing the infinet loop. so now in one time line moe 1 has seemingly disapeared from the face of the earth, and in timeline two there are two moe's one being just one hour older then the other, but identical in every other way, up until the moment they meet.
....also did some one say infinity? i love infinities...rant time!
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infinities are really facinating concepts, in that there are many anomalies accociated with infinities. for example did you know that one infinity can be twice as large as another? or another infinity can be INFINETLY larger then another infinity!
dafuq you talkin about Odra?
well imagine we have an infinetly long list. this list contains all the numbers from 0 to infinet in the proper order.(0,1,2,3,4,5, ect) now we have a second list also infinetly long, how ever this list only contains even numbers (2,4,6,8 ect...) so the second list even though infinet, will be half as large as the first.
now if we have a third list that no only contains all the number from 0 to infinet in the proper order, but ALSO contains all the decimal places in between each number. (1, 1.1, 1.01, 1.001, 1.0001 ect) then this list will be INFINETLY larger the then first infinet list.
this is just one of many anomalies accociated with infinities. they really are facinating concepts, and then when one realizes that theres a very real possibility that the universe it self is infinet....well it just blows my mind. also the fact that it makes much more sence for the universe to be infinet, then finite.
its rather intresting because alot of people cant grasp the idea of something like the universe being truly infinet. but when you really think about it, its the only option that makes sence! if we were to go out in a space ship to see how "large" the universe is and we eventually run into a brick wall, well theres always going to be something behind that brick wall. even if its infinet emptyness.
im guna stop here as i could ramble on about this all day :p. hope i got you guys thinking a lil bit!
dafuq you talkin about Odra?
well imagine we have an infinetly long list. this list contains all the numbers from 0 to infinet in the proper order.(0,1,2,3,4,5, ect) now we have a second list also infinetly long, how ever this list only contains even numbers (2,4,6,8 ect...) so the second list even though infinet, will be half as large as the first.
now if we have a third list that no only contains all the number from 0 to infinet in the proper order, but ALSO contains all the decimal places in between each number. (1, 1.1, 1.01, 1.001, 1.0001 ect) then this list will be INFINETLY larger the then first infinet list.
this is just one of many anomalies accociated with infinities. they really are facinating concepts, and then when one realizes that theres a very real possibility that the universe it self is infinet....well it just blows my mind. also the fact that it makes much more sence for the universe to be infinet, then finite.
its rather intresting because alot of people cant grasp the idea of something like the universe being truly infinet. but when you really think about it, its the only option that makes sence! if we were to go out in a space ship to see how "large" the universe is and we eventually run into a brick wall, well theres always going to be something behind that brick wall. even if its infinet emptyness.
im guna stop here as i could ramble on about this all day :p. hope i got you guys thinking a lil bit!
either way best of luck with your film! i look forward to see what you come up with :)
Edit to add: slightly off topic, but if anyone is intrested, they actually have a blue print for a real time machine! in theory this thing should work! its all about being able to get lasers powerful enough to do what they need to do, but in theory this machine should work without breaking the laws of physics!
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simanick
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Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
while this might not be exactly what you want here is a vary good analysis of time travel from the perspective on modern physics. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/time-travel-phys/#1
Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
My one and only problem with time travel is a simple definition. To draw an easier-to-explain parallel, when was in my first year of high school a smart (and smart-ass as it happened) kid decided to argue with the maths teacher that 1 could be less than 0 if put into a particular formula.
Of course 20 years out of high school I know that formulas have often ranges and do not always hold when used with numbers outside the intended range (just try dealing with some statistical formulas with a probability greater than 1) but at the time I came to a realisation that even the Maths teacher was failing to explain to this kid...
The number 1 is a word, number, symbol - whatever you want to call it in whatever context - that represents a concept. The concept is a unit of measure, if you have 1 of anything it is more than nothing of that thing, not because formulas say so, not because the number system is magical - simply because that is the meaning we are trying to convey by using the number 1.
And that’s my problem with time travel - 'time' is not as flexible as it needs to be to accommodate time travel because the concept we are conveying, when we use the word, is of a sequence of events. I think this concept is what you are trying to rationalise.
So to come back to your question, I have always found the time travel episodes/movies/etc that I have enjoyed the most may not realise the above but respect it, intentionally or otherwise. The most obvious example being that the time traveller makes changes that lead to the time line remaining as it was (often that being the twist from going back to change things). There are plenty of ways to do it without resorting to that too.
So I guess the short version is - your "one reality" could be a predetermined story that you have created and the time travel, no matter how many steps of the potentially infinite loop are taken, ultimately all end up contributing to the main 'line' of events.
Spoiler because its a little off topic...
Of course 20 years out of high school I know that formulas have often ranges and do not always hold when used with numbers outside the intended range (just try dealing with some statistical formulas with a probability greater than 1) but at the time I came to a realisation that even the Maths teacher was failing to explain to this kid...
The number 1 is a word, number, symbol - whatever you want to call it in whatever context - that represents a concept. The concept is a unit of measure, if you have 1 of anything it is more than nothing of that thing, not because formulas say so, not because the number system is magical - simply because that is the meaning we are trying to convey by using the number 1.
And that’s my problem with time travel - 'time' is not as flexible as it needs to be to accommodate time travel because the concept we are conveying, when we use the word, is of a sequence of events. I think this concept is what you are trying to rationalise.
So to come back to your question, I have always found the time travel episodes/movies/etc that I have enjoyed the most may not realise the above but respect it, intentionally or otherwise. The most obvious example being that the time traveller makes changes that lead to the time line remaining as it was (often that being the twist from going back to change things). There are plenty of ways to do it without resorting to that too.
So I guess the short version is - your "one reality" could be a predetermined story that you have created and the time travel, no matter how many steps of the potentially infinite loop are taken, ultimately all end up contributing to the main 'line' of events.
Spoiler because its a little off topic...
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Science has pretty much debunked time travel in the context shown in movies but what I do find interesting is what we do know. Gravitational force is one theory, proposed by Hawkins and supported by some very low level experimentation (getting close to a black hole to test it properly is problematic!). If an astronaut were to orbit a black hole, close to the event horizon (or we could find another source of gravitational force that powerful), the gravitational force would cause time to pass slower for that person. In essence 50 years could pass on earth while our astronaut ages, let’s say 10. What is interesting is that this does not violate our concept of sequential events outlined above, the astronaut appears to have jumped through time but he has not actually travelled though it - just experienced it at a different rate. There is no way he can use this to alter earth’s history.
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The Phoenixian
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Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
Okay I'm not sure what you want but, if your sole concern is the existence of a final "real" timeline then I have encountered a time travel variant in another story that shares that end (Although it should be noted that this variant also is built to uphold the agency of the characters):
In this version of time travel there exists one, prime time line from which all others emerge and when diverged from will only result in misfortune or disaster, although information and people from these dead ends --- usually referred to as "doomed" or "judged" timelines --- can always return to influence the prime timeline.
Notably, any action may split off from the prime timeline, not just time travel because what actually separates the doomed timelines from the prime line is the judgment of the characters. Thus if something happens and one of the characters has the ability and desire to alter or influence it, they can do so at the cost of removing their timeline from existence. Likewise, characters can also work or fight to preserve the events that have come to pass and prevent the timeline from being doomed.
Within this system, a grandfather paradox will inevitably doom one timeline or another while an ontological paradox --- say being saved by your future self from a disaster --- is perfectly acceptable so long as at least one entity would desire it to occur and have the necessary ability to carry out all actions required to make the paradox occur.
For example, if a valuable object is stolen by one person, the person who was stolen from can decide to go back in time and prevent the theft. Depending on how strong or smart they are they can succeed but it is also possible to fail, or even die. This is not the end however. If, for example, they die in the struggle to prevent the theft, they can find their corpse present when they discover the theft upon which they can decide that, no, that object isn't worth dying for and decide to not travel back in time, thus Judging and Dooming the timeline in which they did travel back and upholding the timeline in which they did not as the Prime line.
The prime timeline is only determined when the wills and desires of all individuals are taken into account and all contests between those wills have been fought and decided. Within this timeline, everything may appear to have been inevitable from the start but this is only so because of the contests and compromises of wills.
Again, I'm not sure if this is what you want, but hopefully you'll be able to pick it apart to create something you like.
Bibliography:
In this version of time travel there exists one, prime time line from which all others emerge and when diverged from will only result in misfortune or disaster, although information and people from these dead ends --- usually referred to as "doomed" or "judged" timelines --- can always return to influence the prime timeline.
Notably, any action may split off from the prime timeline, not just time travel because what actually separates the doomed timelines from the prime line is the judgment of the characters. Thus if something happens and one of the characters has the ability and desire to alter or influence it, they can do so at the cost of removing their timeline from existence. Likewise, characters can also work or fight to preserve the events that have come to pass and prevent the timeline from being doomed.
Within this system, a grandfather paradox will inevitably doom one timeline or another while an ontological paradox --- say being saved by your future self from a disaster --- is perfectly acceptable so long as at least one entity would desire it to occur and have the necessary ability to carry out all actions required to make the paradox occur.
For example, if a valuable object is stolen by one person, the person who was stolen from can decide to go back in time and prevent the theft. Depending on how strong or smart they are they can succeed but it is also possible to fail, or even die. This is not the end however. If, for example, they die in the struggle to prevent the theft, they can find their corpse present when they discover the theft upon which they can decide that, no, that object isn't worth dying for and decide to not travel back in time, thus Judging and Dooming the timeline in which they did travel back and upholding the timeline in which they did not as the Prime line.
The prime timeline is only determined when the wills and desires of all individuals are taken into account and all contests between those wills have been fought and decided. Within this timeline, everything may appear to have been inevitable from the start but this is only so because of the contests and compromises of wills.
Again, I'm not sure if this is what you want, but hopefully you'll be able to pick it apart to create something you like.
Bibliography:
Spoiler
Show
This version of time travel is taken from Andrew Hussie's Homestuck.
The "contest of wills" is never explicitly stated but is a notable theory in the community.
The "contest of wills" is never explicitly stated but is a notable theory in the community.
♪ The screams of the souls of the damned and dying,
Fuels for me, the Industry. ♪
Fuels for me, the Industry. ♪
Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
Yes, infinities are fun. But for a plot, it is best if they are reconciled. Not required at all, but usually best.
@The Pheonixian: Cool, I'll think about that. That would require a major rewrite of the current plot I have, but it is a concept that I thought of myself a while back.
Here is another idea I have been toying with.
If in the event that no one gets out of the machine, Moe does not get in the machine, then no one gets out of the machine when it is turned on.
If in the event that no one gets out of the machine, Moe does get in the machine, then Moe gets out of the machine when it is turned on.
Thus, if Moe will only get in the machine if he sees himself get out, then he will never get out. If Moe will always get in the machine no matter what, then Moe will always get out.
The reality where no one gets out of the machine is the first reality. This reality will not manifest into other realities unless someone gets in the machine. If someone gets in the machine, then they come out in the second reality, and the previous one does not exist anymore.
Now there is a reality where someone came out of the machine from a reality where no one came out. If the original person gets in the machine at this point, they will emerge in a reality where they came out of the machine from a reality where they came out of the machine from a reality where no one came out. *breath* One thing you will note is that a certain timeline is always a certain number of timelines away from the reality where no one came out. This loop may repeat unless one of two things happen:
A. The person decides to not get in the machine because of the influence of whatever came out of the machine. This results in a clone of themselves.
B. The timelines hit a certain number away from the timeline where no one came out. This number would either be a fixed number (like 7 or 13) or would be proportionate to the properties of the time machine. Likely it would be a fixed number in my story, which may or may not be based on the time machine size. Once this number is hit, the next person to get in that same machine will simply cease to exist. Essentially, every time machine is able to support a certain quantity of timelines that are connected through it. Yes, this is garbage physics, but most time travel is anyway. Fiction, deal with it.
Essentially, there are multiple timelines, but they never necessarily exist "simultaneously". This is a bit of a misnomer, but the point is that there is a primary timeline that can help push the story. This timeline could look like this:
Moe1 turns on the machine, and a version of himself gets out. This Moe2 says that the Moe in the previous timeline handed him a piece of paper that said "123456" on it. He writes a "7" on it and hands it to Moe1. Moe1 hops in the time machine with the paper, and cease to exist. Moe2 is now the only Moe, and is from a reality where a Moe came out of the machine and gave him a piece of paper that said "123456" on it. He hopped in the machine, which caused that previous reality to cease to exist and came out in his current reality.
*takes a breath*
I'm sure this will turn out to have quite a few problems, but I am satisfied for tonight. Its a bit cheap to put an arbitrary brake to stop time loops, but it isn't so bad. What do you think about it?
@The Pheonixian: Cool, I'll think about that. That would require a major rewrite of the current plot I have, but it is a concept that I thought of myself a while back.
Here is another idea I have been toying with.
If in the event that no one gets out of the machine, Moe does not get in the machine, then no one gets out of the machine when it is turned on.
If in the event that no one gets out of the machine, Moe does get in the machine, then Moe gets out of the machine when it is turned on.
Thus, if Moe will only get in the machine if he sees himself get out, then he will never get out. If Moe will always get in the machine no matter what, then Moe will always get out.
The reality where no one gets out of the machine is the first reality. This reality will not manifest into other realities unless someone gets in the machine. If someone gets in the machine, then they come out in the second reality, and the previous one does not exist anymore.
Now there is a reality where someone came out of the machine from a reality where no one came out. If the original person gets in the machine at this point, they will emerge in a reality where they came out of the machine from a reality where they came out of the machine from a reality where no one came out. *breath* One thing you will note is that a certain timeline is always a certain number of timelines away from the reality where no one came out. This loop may repeat unless one of two things happen:
A. The person decides to not get in the machine because of the influence of whatever came out of the machine. This results in a clone of themselves.
B. The timelines hit a certain number away from the timeline where no one came out. This number would either be a fixed number (like 7 or 13) or would be proportionate to the properties of the time machine. Likely it would be a fixed number in my story, which may or may not be based on the time machine size. Once this number is hit, the next person to get in that same machine will simply cease to exist. Essentially, every time machine is able to support a certain quantity of timelines that are connected through it. Yes, this is garbage physics, but most time travel is anyway. Fiction, deal with it.
Essentially, there are multiple timelines, but they never necessarily exist "simultaneously". This is a bit of a misnomer, but the point is that there is a primary timeline that can help push the story. This timeline could look like this:
Moe1 turns on the machine, and a version of himself gets out. This Moe2 says that the Moe in the previous timeline handed him a piece of paper that said "123456" on it. He writes a "7" on it and hands it to Moe1. Moe1 hops in the time machine with the paper, and cease to exist. Moe2 is now the only Moe, and is from a reality where a Moe came out of the machine and gave him a piece of paper that said "123456" on it. He hopped in the machine, which caused that previous reality to cease to exist and came out in his current reality.
*takes a breath*
I'm sure this will turn out to have quite a few problems, but I am satisfied for tonight. Its a bit cheap to put an arbitrary brake to stop time loops, but it isn't so bad. What do you think about it?
Estimated airspeed velocity of an unladen European swallow: 24 mph
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Pucc
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Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
The main issue that most time-travel films that I've seen is that they try and interweave both linear timelines and multiple realities. Looper a recent film is a classic example of where they fail at this and create a paradox at the core of the story. They try to fit multiple realities into a linear timeline, of course this doesn't work but for story telling multiple realities on their own just aren't entertaining as you need a plot a linear story.
In theory time-travel unless in to the future (at different rates) cannot exist there are various laws of physics that dictate this and, apparently, once in the future you cannot go back. The time-traveling depicted in most films and the one you're describing is really a reality-traveling machine i.e. you're moving through realities by wanting to move in time, as I think you've described. Speaking of Moe when he exits the machine for the first time he is in a completely different reality than when he entered. A reality that either has another of himself waiting to enter the machine or a reality without his duplicate or any other infinite possible realities maybe Moe is a bartender? So whilst an infinite event could well occur there are other realities that could also happen which your story could direct itself to get away from that. Unfortunately this would probably lead to a confusing break/skip in the story but that's what most time travel films contain but try to cover up.
You could follow the original Moe only. For example after he exits the machine for the first time and sees his supposed past self enter the machine, he decides to enter it again and return to 2 once more. Upon exiting he sees his past self and the other exiting the machine a few seconds before him (you know these machines aren't always accurate, ask the doctor he'll tell you). Not sure were that could lead except to a build up of Moe's. As you can tell I'm horrible at making stories and have probably just rambled and benefited nothing to the discussion but it does seem the best time traveling films/shows out there are ones that do not make direct links to the time travelers past and future endeavors i.e. they stay firmly placed in the present, follow one character (Moe) and make a story around that.
Not sure what to make about that machine Odranoel posted the youtube link to, looks pretty though :).
In theory time-travel unless in to the future (at different rates) cannot exist there are various laws of physics that dictate this and, apparently, once in the future you cannot go back. The time-traveling depicted in most films and the one you're describing is really a reality-traveling machine i.e. you're moving through realities by wanting to move in time, as I think you've described. Speaking of Moe when he exits the machine for the first time he is in a completely different reality than when he entered. A reality that either has another of himself waiting to enter the machine or a reality without his duplicate or any other infinite possible realities maybe Moe is a bartender? So whilst an infinite event could well occur there are other realities that could also happen which your story could direct itself to get away from that. Unfortunately this would probably lead to a confusing break/skip in the story but that's what most time travel films contain but try to cover up.
You could follow the original Moe only. For example after he exits the machine for the first time and sees his supposed past self enter the machine, he decides to enter it again and return to 2 once more. Upon exiting he sees his past self and the other exiting the machine a few seconds before him (you know these machines aren't always accurate, ask the doctor he'll tell you). Not sure were that could lead except to a build up of Moe's. As you can tell I'm horrible at making stories and have probably just rambled and benefited nothing to the discussion but it does seem the best time traveling films/shows out there are ones that do not make direct links to the time travelers past and future endeavors i.e. they stay firmly placed in the present, follow one character (Moe) and make a story around that.
Not sure what to make about that machine Odranoel posted the youtube link to, looks pretty though :).
Re: Time Travel Film: Brains Wanted
Oh, I definitely see what you mean. That's why I didn't want to do a film where causality is "instantly" linked, such as Looper. Though, I have made it difficult for myself due to my time machine of choice. While this method of time travel may be more realistic in the fact that it does not enable instant teleportation through time, I never want to think that it should be portrayed through real science. If just enough science is used to enable the audience to suspend their disbelief, and just enough logic to feel structured, then I am satisfied.Pucc wrote:*snip*
I have now come to the conclusion that I need not worry about the cause behind every action due to the time machine, because the system necessary for such rational connections is quite complex. Thank you everyone for your help, you assisted a great deal.
Of course, if anyone else has some ideas, they are always welcome!
Estimated airspeed velocity of an unladen European swallow: 24 mph