Why would people want compatibility ?

[finite8]

Can someone explain to me why people want BTW in forge anyway? BTW isn't just about new items, the hardcore changes are fundamental changes to the actual mechanics. Everything that BTW does i thought would have been replicated some way in the existing mods. Why do they care? If they were to add BTW as it is into their worlds, I have no doubt they would quickly get shitty about hardcore beds, anvils, debug, player names, buckets, etc. Making TNT is harder, making food becomes harder, everything is harder. What is it they REALLY want out of BTW in their world? What mechanic are they after?

[FlowerChild]

Can someone explain to me why people want BTW in forge anyway?

As far as I can tell...because I said no and they hate that :)

[DreamsofFury]

Cause its human nature to want what you can't have it seems.

[finite8]

Can someone explain to me why people want BTW in forge anyway?

As far as I can tell...because I said no and they hate that :)

While i normally can sense when you're being funny, i have a deep concern that your statement there is not entirely in jest.




But i can get why the Mod authors are on about it. It's the community i don't understand. BTW as a whole works against "Moar Power" style of play. Why the hell do they want it??!?!

[FlowerChild]

While i normally can sense when you're being funny, i have a deep concern that your statement there is not entirely in jest.

But i can get why the Mod authors are on about it. It's the community i don't understand. BTW as a whole works against "Moar Power" style of play. Why the hell do they want it??!?!

Well no, it isn't entirely is jest. There really is no good reason to play BTW alongside the standard suite of Forge mods, people just want it because they dislike being refused something. They hear BTW is good, they think their random assortment of Forge mods is good, so they largely just want to jam the two together regardless of whether it would produce anything meaningful.

I think we've already largely established that this whole BWF thing is largely originating with Lex and Co's spite towards me. It really doesn't have a heck of a lot to do with gameplay at all.

On the player side, I think it's much like the whole thing with the feature requests of "more power! more power!". They just inevitably think more is better without any thought as to what that actually means.

[Battosay]

Can someone explain to me why people want BTW in forge anyway? BTW isn't just about new items, the hardcore changes are fundamental changes to the actual mechanics. Everything that BTW does i thought would have been replicated some way in the existing mods. Why do they care? If they were to add BTW as it is into their worlds, I have no doubt they would quickly get shitty about hardcore beds, anvils, debug, player names, buckets, etc. Making TNT is harder, making food becomes harder, everything is harder. What is it they REALLY want out of BTW in their world? What mechanic are they after?

You can't talk in general like that. There is an infinite amount of different mods and play-style out there. Many *little *mods got into using Forge too lately (sadly for us). The wish for compatibility is understandable. It doesn't mean that they necessarily want to play BC+RP+EE+BTW.
Heck, even I would like compatibility.
Had I the skill require, I would have myself made something to allow me to do it. Obviously I would never have spoken about it, I would never have shared it, because unlike others I respect other's people work, but I would have enjoyed it for myself. Because I know BTW just a bit less than FC himself (after all this time I think I can safely assume that ^^) I'm pretty sure I'd know which mod not to play with BTW, and which could.
But when it's compatibility VS No BTW ? I don't care anymore about it :)

But let's not get back to why this was not possible anymore, it's been explained to death.
I don't think it is a good argument in this BWF issue. It's really not the heart of the problem.

[FlowerChild]

I don't think it is a good argument in this BWF issue. It's really not the heart of the problem.

I do agree with you there. However, I suspect you will agree that you are not the average Minecraft player, and that in the vast majority of cases, a Forge-based BTW would likely result in BTW jammed in with precisely the other mods you mentioned.

Basically, Technic or FTB + BTW.

But again, I do agree that it's not central to the debate and we should probably leave that sub-topic there as it isn't really going anywhere.

[finite8]

You can't talk in general like that. There is an infinite amount of different mods and play-style out there.....

-snip-

I see what you mean... a bit. There are SOME elements I've seen out there that would augment okay. Perhaps things like Zeppelin, Optifine, Water Shader (not forge), Railcraft, and some redstone stuff that wouldn't break the experience too much.

I guess its a bit of an education (as in, not understanding BTW, not actual IQ or schooling) thing. Just about everything behind BTW has a purpose, a specific design requirement that has had some real thought behind it to place it in the right point in the player experience to ensure that the player is being challenged and having fun, along with having freedom and feeling the right Reward vs Effort ratio. My new guess after reading your statement there is that people are wanting to just create and get rather than experience and savour.

My challenge to the "Why no BWF"ers is to just try playing BTW for some solid time. Start a new world with BTW and all it's hardcore modes and see what happens. Try it with friends and keep an open mind and reflect. I bet they would understand why we don't want to see this piece of art butchered to fit into a different frame.

Edit: Unspoilered as it is now in its own thread.

[a_pigeon]

While I see where you are coming from Flower, I don't think you understand the reasoning behind the assimilation of your mod into these mod packs by force and why other people would combine your mod with others. After playing your mod standalone and the modpacks together, overlooking community etc., this is my two cents on the issue at hand.

The reason why a lot of FTB/Tekkit/whatever modpack servers and the modpacks in general are so popular is because of what they offer to players. What they offer is a playstyle for almost every different kind of player out there. Mods like industriaclcraft and buildcraft supply something for the player who likes the technicality and complexity of minecraft and would like something harder to do in their worlds. While mods such as thuamcraft and Equivilant Exchange give players who like to toy around and experiment a different experience. These mods alone provide a nice change for Minecraft's gameplay, but they only appeal to one audience at a time, making multiplier a bit of a deadzone for single modpack servers.

Better than Wolves provides it's own playstyle too. It's something for those who want a challenge but enjoy the simple things in Minecraft and the hacky ways the world works.

What modpacks like FTB and Tekkit do is bring all these experiences together into one place in an easy to install and maintain separate game. It creates a Multiplayer environment where everyone can play their own playstyle and bring it to the table with others. No matter what you do, be it making complex balkon's weapons or automated Railcraft railways, you can contribute and help out the other players on the server. It also gives seperate layers to the game. Once you have completed one mod's content, you can begin working on the next. Or you can use all the mods together to create things that are impossible with the mods on their own.

The reason the forced assimilation is happening is because people like your mod and what it has to offer, but they also like to toy with other mods and playstyles. There is a lot of things included in Better Than Wolves for the missing type of playstyle to these modpacks. People want to enjoy your mod with everyone else's, in a modpack that has a little something for everyone to enjoy.

The problem is, Better Than Wolves has removed any capability to do this because of your conflict with the forge team. Don't get me wrong, some of the things they have done are quite bad. But removing any way to use better than wolves with a multitude of mods has sort of ruined it for a lot of players.

[Gears]

-wrong thread now-

[FlowerChild]

The problem is, Better Than Wolves has removed any capability to do this because of your conflict with the forge team. Don't get me wrong, some of the things they have done are quite bad. But removing any way to use better than wolves with a multitude of mods has sort of ruined it for a lot of players.

Yes, I understand that, but I would say that in no way justifies the actions they are taking at present in order to force that.

My mod is intended to be played alone. I choose to mod because of the creative control it affords me over what I was able to get creating games professionally. By creating BWF they are taking that creative control away from me, thereby nullifying my enjoyment of modding and my desire to continue doing so.

In other words, your desire to use BTW with other mods does not somehow supersede my desire to continue enjoying making my mod, and your desire to do so is ultimately short-sighted as you're "cutting off your nose to spite your face" in working towards closing off the source of this kind of content in your desire to use it in a form for which it is not intended.

Your vision for Minecraft seems to revolve around "a little something for everyone to enjoy". Mine revolves around providing a cohesive and unified experience that presents a particular set of challenges in order to increase the satisfaction the player gets from whatever the achieve within the in-game environment. I am NOT interested in catering to the average Minecraft player. What I am interested in is providing a very specific kind of experience like I've described above to a very specific kind of player (largely, players like myself).

I do not interfere with your game or vision. Why are you trying to fuck with mine?

[Battosay]

Splited the topic to avoid any further off-topic.
Finite, feel free to edit the title.
FC I'll let you see if you want to close this now or later, I just moved it here to keep the main BWF topic on track.

[Calcifire3691]

as someone who plays on a server that alternates between BTW and forge mods, I can say that one reason anyone would want BTW/forge compatibility is to prevent the need to switch the server constantly.

if compatibility was ever achieved between BTW and forge, the first thing I'd do is use mystcraft to make a new dimension and move there, and then only play BTW in there with a little TC3 on the side in a second pocket dimension, I could play BTW and TC3 in peaceful isolation, and everyone else could use their overpowered mess as they see fit.

of course, such a situation is unlikely to ever occur now, since lexmanos and the rest of BWF's supporters disgraceful actions have reduced the likelihood of FC ever using forge to nil.

it's ironic really, for me, BTW compatibility with forge would result in me being able to get away from forge and play more BTW since the server wouldn't be switching between BTW and forge :P

(as for the hardcore features, we'd probably keep them, as I said in BTW's MCF thread, most of them feel so natural that when the server uses the forge setup, it either completely messes us up, or we just forget that things don't work that way without BTW, eg, we STILL haven't set spawn points, and when setting up a chicken farm I wasted about half a stack of seeds on the chickens forgetting that they didn't eat from the ground or need feeding without BTW)

[finite8]

Splited the topic to avoid any further off-topic.
Finite, feel free to edit the title.
FC I'll let you see if you want to close this now or later, I just moved it here to keep the main BWF topic on track.

Cheers buddy!

[finite8]

if compatibility was ever achieved between BTW and forge, the first thing I'd do is use mystcraft to make a new dimension and move there, and then only play BTW in there with a little TC3 on the side in a second pocket dimension, I could play BTW and TC3 in peaceful isolation, and everyone else could use their overpowered mess as they see fit.

I see your point and i see how that could be handy as my own server is in a similar state with me wanting BTW and the others not.

However...

Saying "I should be able to play BTW and Tekkit on the same world" is like saying "I should be able to play a Spunkgargleweewee and Fallout 3 in the same world" (for the aforementioned reference, see here http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/ ... FG-Edition). Just like Pig and Elephant DNA, they just won't splice.

[Utterbob]

Well I loved BTB and if compatibility had ever been in consideration I would have gone and revamped the recipes (for personal use ofc) to make just about all of BC an extension to the BTW tech tree (what BTB was doing but a step further).

But without messing with BTW at all, there are a few mods that would work really well. For example, given the transport and navigation changes, a well stocked ship from Ships & Boats (unfortunately not being updated any longer by the looks of it) would have been awesome. Admittedly it added a couple of things that might interfere with BTW but the core idea of the multi-block-entity boat (scrap the flying crap) was just pure gold!

There are a few mods like that out there, they are not utility but rather game play features, yet done in a way that does not interfere with other, tech-tree based, mods. Those are the one that would make a case for compatibility.

In the end though, continued development of BTW > Compatibility/Maintenance updates! Especially when you start getting the fools putting BTW with RP and whining that one mods block/feature is OP/redundant because of the others (we all know it will happen).

[FlowerChild]

In the end though, continued development of BTW > Compatibility/Maintenance updates! Especially when you start getting the fools putting BTW with RP and whining that one mods block/feature is OP/redundant because of the others (we all know it will happen).

Not only that...but whining for inter-mod block/item interactions. That's another thing I got sick of back in the days when I was with the Forge, and having looked at a few Forge-mod threads the requests for "I want this block from this mod to work with that block from that mod" are pretty non-stop.

It's just really not worth it to me on multiple levels. I design BTW to be played alone, and it's coded that way as well.

I don't like dealing with other modders to get the functionality I want. I don't like dealing with the loss of creative control it involves. I don't like the principles behind the "join us or die" Forge mentality. I don't like the people involved with the Forge itself. I don't like dealing with requests for feature compatibility. I don't like face-palming every time I go on the forums and seeing the bastardized version of BTW people are playing due to other mods they have installed. I don't like trying to design with no idea of the end play environment the mod will be experienced in because it introduces far too many variables into the equation and induces creative lock. I don't have my ego tied up in how many downloads I get or how wide an audience the mod appeals to, and I don't want to play BTW in combination with other mods myself anyways.

In other words, there's just not a hell of a lot I would like about being in the Forge, and I'm the guy that's doing the work in developing the mod while everyone else gets to just enjoy the end result of those labors. To me, that's pretty much the end of the story.

[PatrickSJ]

Do I wish BTW were compatible with Forge?
Yes, I wish it were compatible.

Yes, Forge does limit FlowerChild's ability to mod his way; yes, there are political issues in the community; yes, it is up to FlowerChild to decide whether to be compatible with Forge or not; yes, it is wrong for the community to lambast FlowerChild because he doesn't support Forge. However, I still wish it was compatible.


Why do I want compatibility?
Because I could add other mods that I felt fit my BTW playstyle and there is a chance that currently compatible mods that I do like will migrate to Forge to improve their compatibility or to use hooks provided by Forge which means losing their compatibility to BTW.

The desire for Forge compatibility has nothing to do with desiring compatibility between multiple large mods. When combining mods (Minecraft or other games) I usually find it a bad idea to merge several big mods anyways as each is developed towards a specific playstyle and conflicting playstyles ruin the game. Instead I pick a core mod such as Better Than Wolves and then add in smaller mods that I feel compliment or are a direct add-on.

What I see people whining about does say how they can't add their big mods to BTW, but I can see that would be a bad idea even if BTW was Forge compatible simply due to game playstyle conflicts.

I realize that some players have their own playstyle that is not BTW. Some like to focus on functional aesthetics; BTW creative mod if you will. In that case their stand on BTW compatibility is about look and feel. In such situations many Forge mods do compliment BTW, but only because the style is now about looks rather that playing a game. A 3D art canvas.


Should FlowerChild make BTW compatible?
Don't know, don't care. It is up to him. It is one thing to wish it was compatible and a completely different scenario to say he has to make it compatible.

If FlowerChild doesn't want to deal with a community that fails to respect his wishes to mod his way then the community can take a flying leap.

If FlowerChild wants to make the mod standalone then he should allowed to make it standalone. He doesn't need to make BTW compatible.


But don't I want compatibility?
Yes, I want compatibility. I realize that my playstyle is not 100% the same as FlowerChild's; I do not intend to play BTW as standalone; I don't have to conform to FlowerChild's vision of how BTW should be played.

However, I'm not so needy, inconsiderate, or rude enough to insist that he change BTW or make it Forge compatible simply to make me feel good.

And unfortunately that is what a lot of the community is doing.

Edit:
Grammar. Bleh.

[Benanov]

Do I wish BTW was compatible with Forge?
Yes, I wish it was compatible.

You've got a pretty good sentiment here, but I have to point this out before anyone else does, because it's bothering the hell out of me:

The past subjunctive form of "to be" is "were" not "was"

Carry on

(Edit: Muphry's law. Sigh.)

[tom_savage]

There is a lot of things included in Better Than Wolves for the missing type of playstyle to these modpacks.

*smirk* yeah, difficulty.

The only thing compatibility would hold for me is Optifine and maybe a few small other mods. Also, updating the client would be a lot nicer.

I still don't agree with copying the mod over without consent. I'd rather update my client manually.

[BigShinyToys]

I am going to risk my neck and give my honest reasoning as to why I would liked compatibility.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2944
That is a lift controlled by CC (Computer Craft) computers before it went forge. I installed in in one of my worlds and it was great. Given the accuracy of the CC I could time it down to very small floor sizes and didn't need a room of rs to select what floor I wanted. "IF" btw was compatible it would have allowed me make the lift controls more advanced with bundled cables instead of signal line serial for data transmission allowing each computer to know the current lift position. I tried making an equivalent in pure RP and the jerking of the platforms was Irritating to a point i gave up. frames have there place but BTW lifts are much more stable.

Automating BTW analog systems pottery production and the like would be quite challenging. using rp bundles to connect the various parts to a CC computer acting as a machine controller allowing the controlling to pottery type by clicking button on a nice TUI interface.

Spoiler

Show

Controlling and counting the amount of materials going to grinders and soul bottling the exact amount needed controlling tube kiln baking time more precisely allowing for higher speed production. managing all BTW machines from one master computer in a control room showing all active systems and levels of materials flowing through the production plant. BC pipes would interconnect all parts of the plant allowing it to be reconfigured from steel production to hemp grinding using the same 4 X 4 grinding setup.

This is not BTWs play style currently and the is fine but interconnectivity and central control would be a separate play experience with its own challenges and fun. This was what i was working on before CC went forge.

I would never ask btw to go back to forge or for CC to change wither so i have been playing both BTW and CC with BC / IC and it is just not the same. every block in BC requires power to do something how you set it up doesn't matter in BTW every block dose part of a process and you must set them up to do anything more than that design matters a great deal.

I was completely torn when CC when forge and almost left minecraft altogether but then was pointed to multiMC and that has keep me in the game.

I would never support or play a BTW clone because I hold it in such hight regard It is built very well and a complete experience unlike most other mods the actions of members of the forge community over the last week have been utterly appalling and It makes the rest of us forge players look bad when we had nothing to do with it.

I hope this can be looked upon as my honest opinion and not as something meant to cause aggravation that is not my intention in writing this.

[Poppycocks]

Well, that's easy. Variety, mostly.

I've been playing with a modpack for a little and it's horrendously broken, overpowered, overlapping, mismatched and just plain wrong.

And surprisingly fun.

There's a lot of emergent gameplay, despite the fact that most forge mods use single block machines. It's heaps of fun to just come up with ways to break the game as bad as possible and do things the mod authors didn't plan for. It's nice to be able to break the game like that, did you know that I haven't built a single long rail since cart boosters stopped working?

Also, it's nice to do the same things in different ways. For example my start game in BTW has been becoming alarmingly similar from playtrough to playtrough, and I'm beginning to...dislike the groundhog day windmill episode.

Essentially what I'm saying is that I've been slowly realizing that FC and I aren't the same person. And as he often said, he's making the mod for himself. I'm a different person, with different preferences, therefore it's only logical that I'd like to change the gameplay to my liking. Mixing BTW with other mods could let me do just that. Therefore it's why I wish for it.

[elustran]

Part of the reason BTW tried being a part of Forge way back when was because a degree of compatibility would be nice for players, right? The whole idea of modding is to customize the game for yourself a bit. There are even some addons for BTW.

Consider that there are some mods out there that could potentially add something tasteful, interesting, and not out of order with the BTW experience. For instance, BTW never messed with worldgen or mobs (much). Using mods for some awesomer worldgen or some harder monsters to kill with your new soulsteel weapons seems pretty reasonable. Such things wouldn't really mess with the balance or vision of BTW as largely an industrial mod. That's just one example.

Unfortunately, Forge failed as a mod API suitable for BTW, and Minecraft *still* hasn't made a mod API. The game is probably better for not sticking with Forge because it meant FC didn't have to mess with compatibility and politics. But, just because that happened doesn't mean it's unreasonable for people to want to experiment a little bit, particularly old hands who've been playing MC for years. Hell, that's why we got into mods in the first place, as awesome as Minecraft is on its own.

Desiring compatibility isn't bad - the problem is that the only thing people seem to think of when they think 'compatiblity' is Forge instead of a more universal Mojang API.

[BlackCat]

-removed my post to avoid offending people-

Sorry I was out of line with my previous comment.

[Benanov]

Unfortunately, Forge failed as a mod API suitable for BTW, and Minecraft *still* hasn't made a mod API. The game is probably better for not sticking with Forge because it meant FC didn't have to mess with compatibility and politics.

Not to be "that guy" more than once this thread... BTW still uses parts of an old version of Forge. It's not enough for "compatibility"; it's allowed by the Forge license. FC moved away from all the parts he needed to rewrite, and left the pieces he didn't need to mess with.