Philosophical ramblings (Was: My single problem with BTW.)

[Laskeri]

Let me start off by saying this: Flowerchild's game design is second to none, his way of working through problems is a bit over what Mojang themselves is doing (especially because BTW implements bugfixes/functions before they're in vMC).

I've been playing BTW in my main world up until a few BTW updates ago, and I just kind of... dropped it .

My main reason for this is the direction the mod is taking. Yeah, I get it's supposed to be where as he gets more advanced, Steve gets less humane, but to be honest, getting into occult stuff bugs me. Call me a wuss if you will, occult stuff gets to me even if it's just in a game. I don't see why I have to resort to devil worship to play a game. Even if it's fictional, it bugs me all the same.

*cue snarky remark, and life goes on*

[Ulfengaard]

I won't even touch the reference to 'devil-worship' with a ten-foot pole.

However, sometimes these things happen, man. The mod diverges from the vision you had of it. This has happened to me before with a beloved mod. Ultimately, I had to let go of it even though I tried to tough it out. There wasn't anything wrong with the mod. It and I were just going in different directions.

Maybe that's what happening for you. Consider it an opportunity to re-evaluate your gaming preferences and either proceed or reinvest your time elsewhere. After all, we should all be having fun, FC included.

[FlowerChild]

You're a wuss.

P.S. ...and please refrain from accusing me of devil worship man. That's totally uncalled for.

[Thorium-232]

My main reason for this is the direction the mod is taking. Yeah, I get it's supposed to be where as he gets more advanced, Steve gets less humane, but to be honest, getting into occult stuff bugs me. Call me a wuss if you will, occult stuff gets to me even if it's just in a game. I don't see why I have to resort to devil worship to play a game. Even if it's fictional, it bugs me all the same.

Why does it bother you? It's actually (when viewed through a certain kind of lens) a very logical direction to take the game: the Nether and the End aren't exactly bright happy places to be, and the game is filled with the living dead, dark, vicious creatures, and a Dragon. Plus, there's not a single mention of any devil or even any kind of worship of anything, so your "devil worship is a prerequisite" is basically completely unfounded (thus far, anyway). If anything, Steve is being painted as a megalomaniac who would really worship only himself, if he indeed partook in that kind of thing.

Heck, I'll wind it back a bit farther and say that the term 'occult' is barely applicable here. I'm not seeing what you're seeing. It sounds like you're painting in what you think is going on, rather than taking it at face value.

edit: Also, the mod can bug you all it wants. At the end of the day, it's your choice to use what FC is making. If you don't agree with it, walk away.

[FlowerChild]

It's also a direction that Mojang itself has been taking it in.

Granted, Notch chickened out and renamed "Hell" to "The Nether" at a certain point out of fear of the backlash, and the enchanter is so generic that anyone would be hard pressed to get freaked out by it despite its occult nature.

I'm actually just following Mojang's lead in a lot of these things, but fleshing them out more in terms of a background mythos and what's involved in using "magic". Yes, I'm using real-world parallels in order to give a bit more depth to the system, and make it feel more credible. A few months ago I wasn't even thinking of taking the mod in this direction given its more technical bent, but given Mojang started getting much more heavily into magical aspects of the game, I adapted, and started giving it the same kind of treatment I apply to other aspects of the game.

And btw, most of the occult references in the mod right now are Judaic in origin. I can only assume your reference to "devil-worship" is based in Christianity, and if so, it's way off base, as the stuff you are referring to is actually a part of the origin of that religion.

Anyways, regardless, there's always been controversy associated with this mod. Perhaps this is just the beginning of a "Fundamentalistaboo" invasion :)

[morvelaira]

Out of curiosity, do you feel as if because Steve goes down this path to gain more power in your game that it means you taictly approve of it? Because I don't share that vision at all. It's really some of the most subtle satire-as-parable I've ever seen in video games. By taking you down this path towards greater power in the game, and by making it abhorrent on the way... I don't want to speak for FC out of turn, but I've always thought since we've started down this path that we are meant to be horrified at what we do for power.

But yeah. Just my own literary interpretation, yada yada, standard disclaimer, etc.

[Rianaru]

Why does it bother you? It's actually (when viewed through a certain kind of lens) a very logical direction to take the game: the Nether and the End aren't exactly bright happy places to be, and the game is filled with the living dead, dark, vicious creatures, and a Dragon. Plus, there's not a single mention of any devil or even any kind of worship of anything, so your "devil worship is a prerequisite" is basically completely unfounded (thus far, anyway). If anything, Steve is being painted as a megalomaniac who would really worship only himself, if he indeed partook in that kind of thing.

Heck, I'll wind it back a bit farther and say that the term 'occult' is barely applicable here. I'm not seeing what you're seeing. It sounds like you're painting in what you think is going on, rather than taking it at face value.

This. In fact, if my history and dictionary serve me correctly, the concept of 'occult' far predates any concept of a 'devil' or it/her/his worship. Occult simply means 'knowledge of the hidden' as opposed to science, which is knowledge of the measured. This is just from the wikipedia page of occult, by the way. By this definition, all religion would be considered occult, regardless of whether its estabalished and organized or not. This either means that you did not take the time to learn about the subject or are close-minded, which is how your first post came across. I'm not trying to bash or anything, just trying to correct misinformation.
EDIT: slightly ninja'd

[Laskeri]

You're a wuss.

P.S. ...and please refrain from accusing me of devil worship man. That's totally uncalled for.

There's that snarky remark ;)

Alright, not devil worship, but nevertheless the Infernal Enchanter and the canvas stuff is... questionable to me. I realize that kind of stuff really interests you, so I'll just let it be.

However, sometimes these things happen, man. The mod diverges from the vision you had of it. This has happened to me before with a beloved mod. Ultimately, I had to let go of it even though I tried to tough it out. There wasn't anything wrong with the mod. It and I were just going in different directions.

Maybe that's what happening for you. Consider it an opportunity to re-evaluate your gaming preferences and either proceed or reinvest your time elsewhere. After all, we should all be having fun, FC included.

Yeah, I suppose. After playing around with some other mods, I realized that building mob grinders just isn't my thing, and since the actual gameplay aspects of the mod seem to be leaning to that direction it I guess I should just move on.

Thanks for the fun time you've given me FC, tinkering with windmills gearboxes and such, and being the first mod to actually require me to use Redstone. On a side note: when you think about it, Redstone is an amazing system, but there's absolutely no need for it in the vanilla "tech" tree.

My main reason for this is the direction the mod is taking. Yeah, I get it's supposed to be where as he gets more advanced, Steve gets less humane, but to be honest, getting into occult stuff bugs me. Call me a wuss if you will, occult stuff gets to me even if it's just in a game. I don't see why I have to resort to devil worship to play a game. Even if it's fictional, it bugs me all the same.

Why does it bother you? It's actually (when viewed through a certain kind of lens) a very logical direction to take the game: the Nether and the End aren't exactly bright happy places to be, and the game is filled with the living dead, dark, vicious creatures, and a Dragon. Plus, there's not a single mention of any devil or even any kind of worship of anything, so your "devil worship is a prerequisite" is basically completely unfounded (thus far, anyway). If anything, Steve is being painted as a megalomaniac who would really worship only himself, if he indeed partook in that kind of thing.

Heck, I'll wind it back a bit farther and say that the term 'occult' is barely applicable here. I'm not seeing what you're seeing. It sounds like you're painting in what you think is going on, rather than taking it at face value.

edit: Also, the mod can bug you all it wants. At the end of the day, it's your choice to use what FC is making. If you don't agree with it, walk away.

I know that. I could go on and on about my views on it, but in the end, it's just a game, and it would be a waste of time.

It's also a direction that Mojang itself has been taking it in.

Granted, Notch chickened out and renamed "Hell" to "The Nether" at a certain point out of fear of the backlash, and the enchanter is so generic that anyone would be hard pressed to get freaked out by it despite its occult nature.

I'm actually just following Mojang's lead in a lot of these things, but fleshing them out more in terms of a background mythos and what's involved in using "magic". Yes, I'm using real-world parallels in order to give a bit more depth to the system, and make it feel more credible.

And btw, most of the occult references in the mod right now are Judaic in origin. I can only assume your reference to "devil-worship" is based in Christianity, and if so, it's way off base, as the stuff you are referring to is actually a part of the origin of that religion.

Anyways, regardless, there's always been controversy associated with this mod. Perhaps this is just the beginning of a "Fundamentalistaboo" invasion :)

Ok, I get that my "devil worship" claims are innacurate, but I think games should stay off the issue of religion, or at least religion that is based off of real life religions. This /is/ just my opinion though, so carry on with your regularly scheduled life :)

There's too many posts to reply to D:

[Sarudak]

So I'm gonna come out and say that it bothers me too. I think devil worship might be a bit of an extreme statement. I'm actually currently waiting so see how core it becomes to the mood thematically before i decide if i have to drop it our not. That would certainly be a sad day for me. :(

The idea of going back to forge moss is not very appealing and vanilla is boring so it would likely mean the end of minecraft for me...

[Ulfengaard]

K. Getting a little heavy, folks. I'm not sure that the direction of the mod is up for discussion, and given what FC's having to slog through right now with the update... well the timing is less than ideal.

I think this could deserve a 'take it or leave it' and a lock. My two cents.

[FlowerChild]

It's really some of the most subtle satire-as-parable I've ever seen in video games.

Thank you :) :)

[morvelaira]

It's really some of the most subtle satire-as-parable I've ever seen in video games.

Thank you :) :)

And thank you. Never thought I'd find a decent use for all of that critical literature reading I had to do in school.

[FlowerChild]

Ok, look: I did expect some controversy as a result of my design-choices as of late. However, I've been making controversial decisions with regards to the mod since the beginning. It really is an aspect of what it is, and of who I am.

This periodically gets under people's skin, and it gets under people's skin for different reasons. When the mod started, I was actively poking the wolfaboos and their over-sentimentality with regards to cubic creatures. Later, when I introduced the gimp-suit, others left the mod because "I was getting weird", I assume because they weren't comfortable with the subtle sexual connotations associated with it.

Now, we come to the occult...supernatural...magic...whatever the heck you want to call it.. This aspect has really always been part of the mod all the way back to the early "Soul Boosters", but as I said above, with Mojang's newish focus on the magical aspects of MC, it's becoming more predominant.

Each step of the way though, I've just been playing on aspects already within MC, just making them more "in your face" than some people are comfortable with. Perhaps forcing people to be a bit more conscious of what they're actually doing than they prefer to be:

"Oh...isn't that nice...we're off to hell! Look at all the nice little faces in the rock!" Ermmmm....

"Oh, look! Now we can breed animals for slaughter! Look at the cute little babies!" Huh?

"So cool! Now we can harness the life-force of the creatures we kill to make our equipment more powerful!" Really now?

It's all already in there guys...

[FlowerChild]

And thank you. Never thought I'd find a decent use for all of that critical literature reading I had to do in school.

Hehe...I appreciate being recognized for it. It's a skill I worked very hard on developing within the main-stream game industry. You wouldn't believe some of the shit I managed to slip into some of my designs in the past, while the censors were totally oblivious to it ;)

[Elevatator]

"Oh, look! Now we can breed animals for slaughter! Look at the cute little babies!" Huh?

I think that´s the most reallife related point.
You all see? Reallife is disgusting enough. We just don´t face it directly.

[Mason11987]

So I'm gonna come out and say that it bothers me too. I think devil worship might be a bit of an extreme statement. I'm actually currently waiting so see how core it becomes to the mood thematically before i decide if i have to drop it our not. That would certainly be a sad day for me. :(

The idea of going back to forge moss is not very appealing and vanilla is boring so it would likely mean the end of minecraft for me...

This attitude is interesting. It's strange that someone can be concerned that some parts of a game can have creepy pictures, or "magic" and yet be perfectly fine running around killing other players (in SMP) or innocent villagers or just walking up to cows and chopping them up with an axe so that you have enough food to run over to your pig killing floor.

What is specifically bothering to you (and Laskeri I suppose)?

[jorgebonafe]

http://youtu.be/HNi2LS15wmM?t=3m24s

Chill people, this is just a game... To me is not worse then any FPS... Remember that airport lvl on Call of Duty? Its just pixels, no one really died...

[DumbassTurtle]

I always saw the storyline/lore/whatever of the mod as a (very loose) parallel to the way man progressed.

He started with very low tech moving into building mechanisms to do some of the work faster, then expanding and upgrading those, etc..
All of this happening while mankind's belief in the occult shaping his interaction within the world.

@Rianaru
Thank you for highlighting the misunderstanding of the word 'occult' for everyone! <3
Fear can be a huge deterrent for the ignorant.

@jorgebonafe
/mashes the +1 button, and the video as well!!/

[FlowerChild]

Hehe...boy bands offend me as well :)

For further offense: I listen to heavy metal, played copious amounts of D&D as a kid, have been reading books on the occult since I was a teenager, have engaged in premarital sex and adultery on multiple occasions, and don't recycle.

By some standards, you guys are therefore finding entertainment in the creation of a spawn of Satan. <wags finger disapprovingly>

To put the cherry on the cake, I will now post the following link, as it's one of my favorite tunes:

[Gargantuan_Penguin]

You know. of all the ways this *could* have been done, the way FC did it was the best. He is adding a *lot* of awesome gameplay. and a story that fits. And keep in min GAME play. It is just a game, you don't have to go outside your home on a full moon to do some arcane ritual in order to play this mod. At first I admit the recent turn bothered me, slightly. I don't know exactly what changed in my outlook, but I find that I now have no problem with it. My real life moral convictions and my in game ones are two different things.

also, number of the beast is one fantastic song.

[Stormweaver]

Hehe, fundamentalboo.

Looking at it from another point of view:
- Locking animals in dark rooms is ok
- Gallivanting around hell is ok
- Torturing the souls of the damned is ok
- BDSM is ok
- BDSM ft. animals is ok
- Villager farms are ok
- Occult references ARE BAD!

BTW: where the line between morality and immorality is a mile wide and has loops in some places.

[FlowerChild]

BTW: where the line between morality and immorality is a mile wide and has loops in some places.

Just don't mess with cats.

[Gargantuan_Penguin]

-snip-

+1

[morvelaira]

BTW: where the line between morality and immorality is a mile wide and has loops in some places.

Just don't mess with cats.

Damn skippy! Mew! ^_^

[jorgebonafe]

Just don't mess with cats.

The day Steve crosses that line will be a day to remember.