Portable Ice Discussion

[FlowerChild]

So, with Mojang's announcement that they are allowing ice to be picked up with silk touch in the next official release, I decided to prep BTW for it and yesterday enabled the BD to do the same.

I think I have all the bases covered as to what should and should not happen with it, covering both it melting without providing a water-source in the Nether, and turning off water-source generation entirely in HCB, but I just wanted to put the question out to the community as to whether there were other potential problems you can think of associated with this change.

Obviously, it has a lot of gameplay ramifications, so I just want to make sure I have all the bases covered.

[rhacer]

I would like to make a suggestion that you consider melting ice becoming a water source even with HCB turned on. I don't believe it should do so in the Nether, but in the overworld I actually think this might sort-of make sense given that even today, people move blocks of ice for cooling and water supply.

Given you need a silk touch enchantment to actually pick up ice I don't see this lowering the bar too much.

[The great randomo]

Breaking ice in a snow biome would destroy the water block, allowing for fast clearing of rivers. I can't think of a solution, but just a potential problem.

[Urian]

Silk touch is quite easy to get so making it a work around for HCB is not a good idea.

I can't think of any more potential problems stemming for being able to pick up ice, only solutions :p (I very much like using ice for transportation, makes those very long distance transports much easier since you can have water transports that doesn't need to go down a level)

[FlowerChild]

I would like to make a suggestion that you consider melting ice becoming a water source even with HCB turned on. I don't believe it should do so in the Nether, but in the overworld I actually think this might sort-of make sense given that even today, people move blocks of ice for cooling and water supply.

Given you need a silk touch enchantment to actually pick up ice I don't see this lowering the bar too much.

On topic please, and I'm not doing that as it almost entirely removes the bar.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Urian on that point.

Breaking ice in a snow biome would destroy the water block, allowing for fast clearing of rivers. I can't think of a solution, but just a potential problem.

I don't really view that as a problem as it relates more to aesthetics in terms of landscaping than to actual gameplay.

[Whisp]

One thing that spun in my head for a few days now.

I've created in creative a waterless millstone, that has 6 bellows around the 3x3 area, which push all milled items to the center hole, where they fall down.
With ice it is now possible to create item flows on the same level for those items that can be pushed by bellows, because a bellow pushes the items on ice about 3 blocks far.
Is this an approved mechanic to use in our designs or is this something you want to avoid/disable?

[FlowerChild]

One thing that spun in my head for a few days now.

I've created in creative a waterless millstone, that has 6 bellows around the 3x3 area, which push all milled items to the center hole, where they fall down.
With ice it is now possible to create item flows on the same level for those items that can be pushed by bellows, because a bellow pushes the items on ice about 3 blocks far.
Is this an approved mechanic to use in our designs or is this something you want to avoid/disable?

Actually, that is a good point, which I hadn't considered but I don't have any problems with it as the setup cost is rather prohibitive and it only applies to some item types. I suspect the same thing can be done with pistons, and it would be much easier to setup (and "cheaper").

[Stormweaver]

That sounds fine to me. I'd suggest maybe having HCB-mode ice leave a non-source water block when broken as opposed to nothing at all if just to tie it in with the buckets - and to maybe wash away a little bit of redstone if the player gets too careless with it :)

[FlowerChild]

That sounds fine to me. I'd suggest maybe having HCB-mode ice leave a non-source water block when broken as opposed to nothing at all if just to tie it in with the buckets - and to maybe wash away a little bit of redstone if the player gets too careless with it :)

It already does that actually :)

It basically does the same thing as a water-bucket that is placed in HCB.

But like above, please keep this on topic. I'm not really looking for suggestions on the stuff I've already done, as much as I'm trying to identify any potential problems portable ice causes that I may not have considered.

[Starshifterxen]

The things I have thought of so far:

• - In theory it would be fairly easy to set up an ice generator in a snow biome. Not sure if this is an issue.
  - Melted ice can make water do some very strange things. (e.g. placing an ice block on top of a torch results in a floating water block)

I suspect the same thing can be done with pistons, and it would be much easier to setup (and "cheaper").

Actually this doesn't seem to be the case. Items pushed with a piston on ice stop dead as they would on normal ground.

[The Phoenixian]

My own two cents on this issue: With the change as it is, it feels like Block dispensers picking up Ice places Ice water flows "too low" on the tech tree (yes I'm aware that Block dispenser is, currently, at the very top).

The issue is that I'd like to be forced to experiment with conventional water flow based automation before moving to Ice.

While Silk Touch is it's own problem, One will, need to at least grind for XP to attain it and gain a consistent supply but if One powers through the tech tree to get to an Anvil without automating at all, then One can simply start automating with ice based transport and never have to refresh the collecting tool.

[TheAnarchitect]

I got silk touch before I got a BD. If silk touch can get it, the BD ought to be able to as well.

[FlowerChild]

At most I think that obtaining and maintaining a silk touch enchantment is an annoyance that most dedicated players will go through for this kind of thing. The BD acts as a substitute for silk touch (with all blocks) to bypass the grind of sitting at an XP farm and then hoping the random number generator gods decide in your favor, giving the player the option of working their way through the tech tree and setting up redstone contraptions instead of mindless clicking.

I also plan on fully automating XP farms in the future as I think the current setups are rather lame, and I'd rather provide a means of automation then leave people punching glitching masses of spiders.

Anyways, just to say that I consider obtaining silk-touch to be trivial, if rather annoying, gameplay, and I consider it a given that most dedicated players will obtain it (even if they aren't actually having much fun in the process).

Keep in mind that I'm opposed to ice being a portable block to begin with, and have shot down all such suggestions in the past, as I don't particularly like what it does to automation, but seeing as how Mojang has decided to make it so, I'm just trying to adapt the mod as best I can. I think we all need to accept that ice will now become a common aspect of transportation systems and move on from there.

[Battlecat]

The biggest benefit I can think of that can be done with ice in conjunction with water streams is effectively infinite horizontal transport of items. The ice allows items to retain momentum so items will travel across a signed gap between two water streams and can effectively travel as far as you stream is designed to carry them.

Crappy illustration to demonstrate:

WwwwwwwSWwwwwwwSWwwwwww
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

where W is a source, w is a stream, S is a sign and I is the ice. Things in item form will travel the entire length of this setup. In a loop, you can get effective perpetual item motion. This could potentially be an issue, but it will be possible with or without the Block Dispenser due to the silk touch changes.

[FlowerChild]

Actually, after my above rant on my dislike of portable ice in general, I've decided to further increase the restrictions on ice in HCB to at least preserve the current item-transport situation in that particular mode.

I've changed it so that ice-blocks placed in a non-cold biome, or below ground, will melt with time. Thus, in HCB they will not be useful for item transportation beyond the capacity in which they are now, and you'll really only be able to use naturally occurring ice, or that which you place in areas where it could otherwise form.

I'd really prefer it if Mojang had done something like this for ice in general, but barring that I can at least have HCB mode work the way I'd prefer.

[Mason11987]

Actually, after my above rant on my dislike of portable ice in general, I've decided to further increase the restrictions on ice in HCB to at least preserve the current item-transport situation in that particular mode.

I've changed it so that ice-blocks placed in a non-cold biome, or below ground, will melt with time. Thus, in HCB they will not be useful for item transportation beyond the capacity in which they are now, and you'll really only be able to use naturally occurring ice, or that which you place in areas where it could otherwise form.

I'd really prefer it if Mojang had done something like this for ice in general, but barring that I can at least have HCB mode work the way I'd prefer.

It may be unsolicited but I'm definitely in support of this, I like the idea of potentially having to use the snow biome for certain machines to function in a unique way. Biomes don't really matter much so this is cool.

May I ask how you defined "underground"? Is it no block above, or no solid block above?

[FlowerChild]

May I ask how you defined "underground"? Is it no block above, or no solid block above?

Same as the ice-formation code works. If it can see the sky, it's above-ground.

I also put in a stipulation that it won't melt if there is an ice-block already above it (that one will have to melt first), so that frozen rivers don't wind up with hollow interiors, and other weirdness. This also means you'll still be able to build ice-structures in cold biomes, as long as they are composed strictly of ice.

Basically, it's just the reverse of the ice formation code. If an ice block is placed in an area where a water block wouldn't freeze, then it melts.

This may be the aspect that causes me to switch my main-world to dedicated HCB actually (previously I just had certain areas reserved for it since I'd been playing my main world long before HCB existed). Having all these ice-blocks sitting in apparently "warm" areas is a detriment to suspension of disbelief for me, and I'm ultimately going to feel like I'm using an exploit if I go that route.

[morvelaira]

At the risk of being unconstructive, I have to give a small squee to this change. I have aesthetic design wants that involve ice, and now they have a chance at coming to fruition. ;)

As far as from the technical design perspective... about the only thing I can think of has already been mentioned above - the bellows possibly being able to push items further over ice.

[FlowerChild]

I actually just fired an email to Jeb asking if he'd consider making ice melt in non-cold biomes as I described above for HCB.

So, if that happens, I guess it gives the community another reason to hate me ;)

[Whisp]

Just to remove any uncertainty:
Ice placed in the nether on HCB will definitely melt, too?
And what about the end dimension? Feels like a rather cold place to me.

EDIT: Scrap that nether part, have read the first post at least 2 or 3 times since creation and still somehow forgot it. :/

[FlowerChild]

Just to remove any uncertainty:
Ice placed in the nether on HCB will definitely melt, too?

If you want to remove the uncertainty, read my first post on the subject.

And what about the end dimension? Feels like a rather cold place to me.

I leave it alone, so whatever is decided in vMC is what we'll get.

[walker_boh_65]

And what about the end dimension? Feels like a rather cold place to me.

Thats a good question. I assume it would melt there just because ice cannot be formed in the end.

[FlowerChild]

Thats a good question. I assume it would melt there just because ice cannot be formed in the end.

It may be interesting hypothetically, but it has very very little effect on gameplay.

[FlowerChild]

Ok, I'm going to make a tactical retreat on this one. After thinking this all through, I've decided to NOT allow the BD to pickup ice-blocks for the time-being.

I'm doing this because of the possibility that Jeb might respond to my suggestion and make ice blocks melt outside of the conditions under which they can form. In that case, I don't want users of the mod to start building stuff out of ice now using the BD, only to have that destroyed later on when it all melts.

I really do hope he takes my email to heart as I've always believed that ice would mess pretty severely with the use of water flow in MC for item transport, which has always been one of the coolest aspects of the game to me (hence why so much of the mod revolves around it). I suspect the chances of him listening to me are pretty low, since I don't think automation systems are something he actively considers, but I'll try to stay optimistic about it.

[Gilberreke]

One big exploit with any ice is that allows for water flows that transport items without dropping a block every 8. It can just carry on forever.

Personally I find this vanilla behavior intrusive enough on the values of your mod that I might even suggest a base class edit to remove that new feature entirely.

As for ice breaking and creating HCB water: right now buckets create a 1-high water block, could you change that to 7 high or whatever for ice, so it creates a bigger water surface?