Potions enchanting and BTW.

[Brethern]

I didn't post this in the suggestion section because it isn't a suggestion, rather it's a few musing I have about the new features built into vMC. and how it applies to BTW. I know that there was a topic about these already but to my knowledge that was before release.

Anyways the new system is excellent but like allot of things vanilla it's shallow.

The steps can be simplified to
1.) find and gather.
2.) use crafting bench.
3.) enchant or brew.

Depending on what you gather step two isn't going to be applied for all ingredients.

A good concept but simplified to a point where it's boring and tedious.

How BTW could make it interesting, without changing the existing brewing recipes there's a place that new potions can be implemented. and a new way to do it.

What steps would be involved?

Steps.
1.) find potential ingredients.
2.) splice some to create a new breed.
3.) plant and grow to get more.
4.) gather.
5.) prepare ingredients to create a wash.
6.) take wash and bottle to create potions.

In this instance step 2 isn't needed but it could lead to more efficient crops. Wheat grows faster, mushrooms spread like they used to. Sugar cane grows higher and faster.

Steps 3 and 4 are self explanatory. Step 5 is where it get's interesting.

Instead of using the brewing stand to create the potion everything is done in the cauldron

Example let's say I want a potion of fire, it's effect would be when thrown it would create AOE fire.

How would I create a wash?

In the cauldron add flour sugar concentrated hellfire tallow and gunpowder it would cooking into [insert creative name here.] that would then be placed in the brewing stand to bottle three potions of fire. the steps can then be repeated for whatever potions are added.

For vanilla potions a alternative recipe could be added like what was done for sugar, planks and bread.


Another interesting step that could be added is tainting weapons. Place your sword in the cauldron with a poison potion to get a tainted blade that does damage over time to mobs.

just my 2 cents. Discuss.

[DaveYanakov]

Or even simpler, randomize which ingredients make the potions at world gen. Every time you start a world, you need to experiment to see which ingredients you need for that strength potion.

Simple as in a way to make the system more complex, not the process itself

[MoRmEnGiL]

I entirely disagree that the potion system needs artificial complexity to be interesting. In fact I think that for it to be interesting it should be simple enough that you can mass produce potions, otherwise they are a non-factor in minecraft gameplay. You'd take some vs the boss and...that's it probably.

[FlowerChild]

I entirely disagree that the potion system needs artificial complexity to be interesting. In fact I think that for it to be interesting it should be simple enough that you can mass produce potions, otherwise they are a non-factor in minecraft gameplay. You'd take some vs the boss and...that's it probably.

I personally think that what the potion brewing system most needs is useful output.

I really didn't find that any of the potions were really worth the hassle in my play-through of PR2. Maybe some emergent possibilities will become more apparent with time, but I really don't see them at present.

[Stormweaver]

I entirely disagree that the potion system needs artificial complexity to be interesting. In fact I think that for it to be interesting it should be simple enough that you can mass produce potions, otherwise they are a non-factor in minecraft gameplay. You'd take some vs the boss and...that's it probably.

I personally think that what the potion brewing system most needs is useful output.

I really didn't find that any of the potions were really worth the hassle in my play-through of PR2. Maybe some emergent possibilities will become more apparent with time, but I really don't see them at present.

I dunno, the speed potion seems generally useful, considering the measly cost of 1/3 sugar. Reduced up the wasted time running around my branch mine at least.

The thing that bugs me is that they don't stack. For the effects they give, taking up inventory space for multiples just doesn't seem worth it.

[FlowerChild]

The thing that bugs me is that they don't stack. For the effects they give, taking up inventory space for multiples just doesn't seem worth it.

Yeah, that's one of my primary objections as well. Something like healing potions hardly seem worth it when you can stack 64 food. During my play-through, I made a bunch, then just left them in a chest when I realized they couldn't stack. They really didn't seem worth the inv space, and definitely not worth a hot-bar slot, which is the only way I could really see them being effectively used in the heat of the moment.

If they're not an effective emergency measure, then they really don't seem to serve a purpose considering how quickly you can regenerate your health while not engaged in combat. I'm not even certain if they'd be worth it even with stacking seeing as how rare prolonged combat engagements are in MC.

Anyways, I'll probably try to do some kind of balance pass on them once I take a look at some more pressing concerns in 1.0.

[misterwuggles]

Part of the reason for that is the lack of any real difficulty within the combat system, or any real survival worries.

Health and Regeneration potions are trumped by natural regeneration.

Strength and Swiftness are useful, but not very necessary. If potions were stackable I'd probably keep Swiftness potions with me at all times, but one slot per potion usually makes it too annoying for me to bother.

Fire Resistance is great, but extremely limited. I only really used a batch to farm a Blaze Spawner (they give you near-immunity to them) for 24 minutes and got more Blaze Rods than I'd ever really need.

Splash Potions I never really bothered with since they're basically a more expensive Bow, though they were apparently useful for farming XP from chicken death pits.


One of my big problems with potions were that Redstone infusion pretty much always trumped Glowstone, especially considering the potions aren't stackable. The only exception was Health Potions since they have no duration. 3 slots of my inventory for 24 minutes of +1.5 damage, or 3 slots of my inventory for 4.5 minutes of +3 damage?? Yeah, right.

I'm not sure exactly what the brewing system needs, but it probably needs something.

[Urian]

Splash damage potions are indeed very good for xp farms. Using a spawner based mob farm to get a ton of enemies into one little spot and then splash bomb them to death is very fast (throw in a little crushing first to soften them up)

[MoRmEnGiL]

It' not the effects themselves that are lackluster IMHO, it is the mechanics surrounding them.

Take healing potions for eg. IF they stacked, and IF they did not have an animation to delay their effect from the moment you clicked them, they would be actually nice to have when exploring hazardous environments (like abandoned mineshafts and those @$%@$ cave spiders :P)

Splash potions are my favourite ones probably, due to their application in XP farms.

Fire resistance potions could be great to have in the nether, if there was a reliable way to have their effects on for longer periods of time without having to sacrifice all your inv space plus having to stop and drink one again and again and again.

In general, for the effort it takes, the duration you get, and the inv space they require, potions are a bit meh, mainly because they are really inconvenient. If they went in a special potion backpack, and each had it's own hotkey rather than having to use them through the hotbar I sure would use them a hell of a lot more.

Strength and toughness would be great vs harder enemies, but right now there is only one of those. And using them when exploring dark places is impractical rather than pointless.

In my eyes, potions,and spell effects in general, in a game tend to fall in 2 categories. Tactical and strategical.

Tactical effects are ones that see common everyday use, like the wizard eye in the might and magic series for eg, or low/med power buffs. These tend to have low cost/upkeep, are fairly common,and are conveniently integrated in the gameplay. These tend to have long durations or can be carried in bulk, because they are things that you generally want to keep active/at hand. But they do not usually have major game changing effects, they are more like utility effects.

Strategical effects are ones that you only use in very specific situations, like a potent protection potion when fighting a boss for eg. These effects tend to have high cost/upkeep,are fairly uncommon or even downright rare, and you usually go out of your way to activate them,because you want to avoid accidental triggering. They also usually have relatively shorter duration, and thus are usually saved for tight spots.

Minecraft's potions system gives me the feeling that has tactical level power effects but with strategic level drawbacks.

But that is just a matter of tweeking, plus there are opportunities to expand the system with new potions and/or effects, so yeah.

[ialdbaoloth]

I used the extended speed potions a lot for running back and forth to the stronghold when I was playing 1.0. They last long enough you don't need more than two or three for a trip. if you plan to travel back and forth, the occasional trip with an inventory full of them to stock up a chest goes a long way. Everything else seemed less useful.

Fire resistance potions could be great to have in the nether, if there was a reliable way to have their effects on for longer periods of time without having to sacrifice all your inv space plus having to stop and drink one again and again and again.

Did you brew them with redstone? 8 minutes seemed like a pretty good duration for me, but I was using them to farm at blaze spawners rather than swim in lava so it wasn't as critical to start the next before the effect ran out.

The other thing I used potions for was hunting endermen - a long speed potion for running around, then strong damage potions for the fight, with some extra healing potions. It worked okay, but I was traveling very light and most of the inventory was spare potions.

Letting potions stack even a little would make a big difference. If they made 16 stacks it would probably be reasonable to carry one of each potion. Stacking to three our four sounds even better - it would force some compromises if you want to go wild on potions, but make let you carry a decent stock of one or two without too much sacrifice elsewhere.

Another thing to consider is carrying ingredients and brewing them on the go. If you start from empty bottles everything stacks (so this won't work in the nether where there's no running water). I think the brewing time and having to set up a stand is the most unappealing part of the idea. For some reason, the change in 1.0 to the mushroom stew recipe that lets you mix it without a table it seem a lot more appealing as a food. It would take a lot of inventory slots compared to other utility kits like a stack of coal and a stack of wood, but it might be worth it if you want a lot of potion. 5 slots for 192 speed potions doesn't sound too bad if I was planning a long exploring trip. It also suggests a different set of tweaks, maybe even letting you improve potions in the 2x2 crafting slot.

[Panda]

I find that the potion brewing system is really good for only 2 types of potions. Speed and Strength (mainly for End boss fight).

[FlowerChild]

I find that the potion brewing system is really good for only 2 types of potions. Speed and Strength (mainly for End boss fight).

Oh, does strength increase the damage on your bow as well? If so, it would sure cut out a lot of the tedium of that bloody boss fight :)

[ThatOneDude]

I just thought I'd say one thing-

To anyone who's annoyed positive potions don't stack, you can easily take 3 potions and put them in a brewing stand with 1 gunpowder to get splashpotions, yes, positive ones, which are stackable and faster than normal potions.
ie You could have 1 potion of healing in your inventory that takes 2 seconds to drink, or 64 splash potions of healing that take 1 second to throw at your feet to get the same effect.

Just in case you didn't know

[MoRmEnGiL]

Oh, that is interesting!

[Thyphon]

I just thought I'd say one thing-

To anyone who's annoyed positive potions don't stack, you can easily take 3 potions and put them in a brewing stand with 1 gunpowder to get splashpotions, yes, positive ones, which are stackable and faster than normal potions.
ie You could have 1 potion of healing in your inventory that takes 2 seconds to drink, or 64 splash potions of healing that take 1 second to throw at your feet to get the same effect.

Just in case you didn't know

hmmm but don't they affect mobs aswell?

[CrimsonStorm]

I just thought I'd say one thing-

To anyone who's annoyed positive potions don't stack, you can easily take 3 potions and put them in a brewing stand with 1 gunpowder to get splashpotions, yes, positive ones, which are stackable and faster than normal potions.
ie You could have 1 potion of healing in your inventory that takes 2 seconds to drink, or 64 splash potions of healing that take 1 second to throw at your feet to get the same effect.

Just in case you didn't know

hmmm but don't they affect mobs aswell?

Yes, and that's a potential problem with this strategy - though if it was treated in the typical fashion, undead mobs should at least be damaged by the "healing"! Anyone know if this is the case?

[Katalliaan]

The undead mobs have the effects reversed (healed by effects that harm you, harmed by effects that heal you), but the rest don't - spiders, slimes, creepers, and ghasts all receive the same effect as the player.

[AdmiralJonB]

I don't know if it's actually true or not, but when I was messing around with splash potions in an SMP server, it seems like there is varying effect depending on how far you are away from where the potion was thrown: I through a weakness potion at a player a block or two away and he had the debuff a lot longer than I did.

So, if you just throw one at your feet when you're a couple of blocks away, maybe it would have barely any effect on the mob. Not too sure though.

[Andellmere]

I don't know if it's actually true or not, but when I was messing around with splash potions in an SMP server, it seems like there is varying effect depending on how far you are away from where the potion was thrown: I through a weakness potion at a player a block or two away and he had the debuff a lot longer than I did.

So, if you just throw one at your feet when you're a couple of blocks away, maybe it would have barely any effect on the mob. Not too sure though.

From my experience, this is true. Tested the potions in TMI and the Damage splash potion kills chickens in one shot if it lands on their head. Not so much if it lands near them.
On a side note: chasing chickens sucks.

Question: What all counts as an undead mob? Anyone know if things besides the obvious count?

[Kwilt]

Question: What all counts as an undead mob? Anyone know if things besides the obvious count?

From what I've read, just skellies, zeds, and zombie pigmen.

But, I have a better question: What of the spider jockey?

[Andellmere]

Question: What all counts as an undead mob? Anyone know if things besides the obvious count?

From what I've read, just skellies, zeds, and zombie pigmen.

But, I have a better question: What of the spider jockey?

Thanks for the quick answer. I'll probably test it out myself but... Too lazy right now.
My main concern were things in the Nether though. Even more specifically Ghasts. They are technically in Hell, right?

I'm thinking the jockey and spider act as separate entities, so the spider is normal and the jockey is reversed leading to a horrible situation for potioneers!

[Katalliaan]

Ghasts are considered to be alive, despite their being in the the nether.

[gftweek]

Question: What all counts as an undead mob? Anyone know if things besides the obvious count?

From what I've read, just skellies, zeds, and zombie pigmen.

But, I have a better question: What of the spider jockey?

I'm thinking the jockey and spider act as separate entities, so the spider is normal and the jockey is reversed leading to a horrible situation for potioneers!

Yes they are, you can kill either independently with a bow or sword, and a fall that would kill either will only kill the spider, had this problem several times with a drop trap leaving skeletons to shoot me.

Looks like poison potions heal spiders and skeletons alike, so the worst possible choice.

Hmm, I see instant harm potions allow for rocket jumping!

[australia64]

Well in my opinion enchanting BTW items will probable have some interesting effects, seeing that steel has been forged with souls I would expect some real interesting stuff happen.