Considering dropping Forge

[JRoush]

Eloraam is an exceptionally good programmer. I know this thread is nominally about the Forge, but really it's about her, and I want to put this on record. Even in a group of good programmers, she's uncommonly talented. Her implementations are elegant, effective, and reliable, which is more than I can say for many of the features she ripped off (anyone built a multi-pulley elevator recently?). And yes, she did rip them off. No arguments there.

Still, technical skill isn't everything. I would certainly support BTW no matter what decision FC reaches, but I can't say I won't be dissapointed if/when he drops Forge compatibility.

[MoRmEnGiL]

Meh, to be fair I think it is a bit too late for anything, seeing as this whole thing has escalated to the point that FC has this strong feelings about the situation. So just do what you think should be done man, there is no point in forcing anything upon yourself, so why all the fuzz, just be done with it and spare yourself any more drama. It's not like there are options really, are there? We will still be here playing BtW and the world will keep going on as it did :P

Spoiler

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Also, the nipple thing reminded me of this scene ;p

EDIT: Oh boy, to the poster above: you shouldn't go there, really. Your comment is just off topic and a bit insulting.

[Phantum]

Hey, the only two sad parts I see in this is how drastic your opinions seem to have changed about forge and that you'll lose infinite sprites... two things you voiced for at the time of the 'forge wars' at MCF.

No, I absolutely won't be losing infinite textures. The main work that would be involved for me in detaching from the Forge would be to write my own routines to do the same thing.

EDIT: And BTW, I do still believe in what the Forge represents. I just think it's unfortunate that what had great potential for being a collaborative effort turned out to be dominated by a single modder with a very definite agenda.

To be honest I am at a stand still, I still enjoy using buildcraft in addition to BTW, but I was actually quite apalled at what eloraam has been doing in terms of mimicking a lot of other mods out there. The original redstone abilities were awesome (running wires along walls, ceilings, concealing them with panels etc) but I do not agree with the direction she's been going at all.

I'll support you 100% either way you go though. I love this mod too much to be without it, no matter the cost.

Also, have you talked to SpaceToad about this?

So, what ought to be done? How can anyone /make/ Eloraam give up the secrets of everything she's done so far? I mean, it's not practical to change the way it's done at this point.

There's no secrets. The thing is open source. Her coding style is certainly obtuse (given that she doesn't seem particularly concerned with meaningful variable names or code comments), and I've even wondered at times if it's intentionally so (to make the API even more dependent on her in particular), but with some elbow grease you can get through it. The problem is more of a matter of who wants to wade through all that stuff to figure it out and be the one to maintain it. I certainly don't want to.

So, for me, the easy solution to how to solve it is just get the fuck out of Dodge ;)

Also, From my past experience, the people that are really good at programming, and make their coding "aobtuse" do so for the sake of keeping others out of it. When I was working on the Aion Private server emulator we saw that a lot and we got rid of it. Being an asshole like that doesn't help anyone at all, and it's merely one way to try and exert control over someone else.

[Camerinthus]

I haven't really been posting here lately, mainly because by the time I read stuff what I would say has already been said, so I'll just say this:

I only play with BTW because it's the only mod I feel that really fleshes out vMC. Because of that, I personally couldn't care less if you dropped the forge; one less installation step that I have to do (not that it's difficult, just dull).

However, the vast majority of people that use BTW (from what I can tell on the MCF) are end users and don't understand concepts like APIs and will be majorly confused if Forge is dropped. As has been mentioned, expect thousands of comments about incompatibility if you do drop Forge. Also, as has also been said, most people that use BTW use other mods like RP or BuildCraft. (I did for a stretch, but it just felt waay too OP.)

I'm basically just rehashing what's been said before, but here's my opinion:

Drop it. If people whine, let them. It's your mod, and as you've said, you don't really care what other people want to have, as long as it fits your needs. (Or something like that..) So do that. Whatever makes you push out good updates (the more the better!) is the best solution.

[Brethern]

I wasn't going to post anymore but after watching the recording of diego's stream. I'm going to state my opinion on the matter.


I searched for the longest time to find a mod that gives a fun and challenging way to craft explosives, that doesn't involve sand.
I also like the new tools that aren't a copy of a million other tool mods. I don't lose my steel I can melt it down and recraft them.
I'm not crazy about the gimp suit, I'm trying to convince myself it's because FC is a fan of mad max.
I like being able to consume the nether for legit reasons.
I like being able to make bread from flour and having an upgraded bow.

There's four things I like. If FC wants to drop forge he can go ahead but there better be features upcoming that are going to be worth it. Will I keep playing BTW?

Right now I can complete the BTW tech tree and head right into the industrial era building generators, consuming lava lakes draining the ocean and consuming 64x64 squares of land. I can compress useless dirt into diamonds, I can dig a tunnel with an upgraded minecart. I can fly summon rain and thunderstorms on a whim. create glowstone from cobble insta grow crops. command lighting, Wire complex machines without needing to bang my head against the wall. I can crush mountains walk on water destroy volcanoes with nukes, Command fusion. Forge invincible armor.

I have created my perfect game of minecraft. You tell me.

[FlowerChild]

Eloraam is an exceptionally good programmer. I know this thread is nominally about the Forge, but really it's about her, and I want to put this on record. Even in a group of good programmers, she's uncommonly talented. Her implementations are elegant, effective, and reliable, which is more than I can say for many of the features she ripped off (anyone built a multi-pulley elevator recently?). And yes, she did rip them off. No arguments there.

I've said myself, including in this thread, that she's a very talented programmer man. I've never brought that into question.

However, as to whether she's more talented than I am (which seems to be what you're implying), man, there's a lot of variables to that equation and I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess. She makes technical trade-offs that I am not willing to and everybody goes nuts because she's using tile entities for everything and hardly consuming block ids as a result. That's cool and all, and it was a very smart move given the trade-offs she's willing to make, but is that better?

She's also willing to spend a huge amount of time on things that I am simply not willing to. Placement code for sub-blocks for example. Again, what's better in that? I don't think that the sub-block placement I have going is optimal, but I think there are far more important things to work on in the mod, so I move onto those.

She's also willing to make far more extensive and invasive changes to the MC code-base than I'm willing to in order to get the functionality she wants. The number of base-class mods that RP now requires makes BTW pale by comparison, with the difference being that all of them are hidden in the Forge in her case. Again, which approach is better in that is highly questionable.

I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess as to who the better programmer is man, and honestly, I stopped caring about programmer cock-fights a good 15 to 20 years ago.

What I will say is this though:

If you log into an SMP server and spend a few hours building a castle, only to log back on the next day to find someone has built one twice as big next to yours overnight, you're going to say "wtf"? So, you decide to wander off into the wilderness and work on a nice circular tower, spending a few more hours on it. The next day, you log on, and find someone has built a tower identical in shape but twice as big, again, right next to yours. So, you start getting pissed.

This keeps happening and it becomes apparent that someone is intentionally copying your creations but always doing them "bigger! better! more powerful!".

Is this fun? How long before you say "fuck this" and quit the server?

[FlowerChild]

There's four things I like. If FC wants to drop forge he can go ahead but there better be features upcoming that are going to be worth it. Will I keep playing BTW?

There better be features upcoming that are going to be worth it? Or what? Wtf man?

[Gilberreke]

I searched for the longest time to find a mod that gives a fun and challenging way to craft explosives, that doesn't involve sand.
I also like the new tools that aren't a copy of a million other tool mods. I don't lose my steel I can melt it down and recraft them.
I'm not crazy about the gimp suit, I'm trying to convince myself it's because FC is a fan of mad max.
I like being able to consume the nether for legit reasons.
I like being able to make bread from flour and having an upgraded bow.

Really? Of all the features in the mod, those four are your favorites? No hard feelings intended, but I don't feel like BTW is the mod for you. Also, if flying around creating storms is your kind of Minecraft experience, I'm again not sure if BTW is the mod you should be running.

It pains me to say this, but in your case, I'd understand it if you stop playing BTW in favor of your other mods. It's obviously just acting as an elaborate utility mod in the setup you have.

[DaveYanakov]

I have played BTW with other mods but those other mods were always secondary. I would be just fine if BTW was completely incompatible with other mods, not just Forge mods. As I see it, the API has become an extension of RedPower rather than the open source utility it was intended to be at the start. If it's causing you stress and you can keep the features you want to use, by all means, drop it like a rock. Most of us won't really care and many of the rest will get over it as you continue to add features that make Minecraft fun to play, not just 'dig faster and fire lazors'. The only people I can see actually being hurt by this are Jorge and Gil who worked on making cross-mod content.

As for other mods, there are plenty out there that add to the gameplay without touching Forge so it's not as if you'd be leaving the rest of the modding community behind. It would also seem to me that if Eloraam continues on this path you won't be the only one who gets fed up and cuts Forge support. It may be that some of the other mods follow your strong example.

Bottom line, if you're not having fun doing something, change what you're doing. Working with Minecraft is supposed to be entertaining whether you're ceating content in game or out.

[Ferrus.Manus]

There's four things I like. If FC wants to drop forge he can go ahead but there better be features upcoming that are going to be worth it. Will I keep playing BTW?

There better be features upcoming that are going to be worth it? Or what? Wtf man?

I imagine he would stop playing BtW. He's just being very dramatic about that.
And back on topic - after hearing more about situation dropping Forge seems pretty much only solution left. BtW is pretty self contained and never really meshed with other major mods that well anyway. It's sad to see the compatibility go but it seems you already tried other options.

If you log into an SMP server and spend a few hours building a castle, only to log back on the next day to find someone has built one twice as big next to yours overnight, you're going to say "wtf"? So, you decide to wander off into the wilderness and work on a nice circular tower, spending a few more hours on it. The next day, you log on, and find you someone has built a tower identical in shape but twice as big, again, right next to yours. So, you start getting pissed.
This keeps happening and it becomes apparent that someone is intentionally copying your creations but always doing them "bigger! better! more powerful!".
Is this fun? How long before you say "fuck this" and quit the server?

Hell yes it would be fun. It would be either extremely elaborate joke (in which case it would be awesome) or the mysterious builder finds concepts of my castles/tower to try to improve. It would give me a motivation to create better and more elaborate builds to see how he improves them.

[Ichi16]

well im going to throw my 2 cents out here
i support whatever is best for the mod. compatibly dosent make the mod better just easier for people to use things that mostly destroy the balance of minecarft the BTW adds (mostly, not all mods). if the mod is suffering because of forge then i say that dropping it would be a good idea. i cant pretend to be the most dedicated follower of BTW but from what ive seen normally when fc sticks to his guns things work out better in the long run (reference yogaboos invasion). if something that was supposed to be a group project got destroyed by someone taking it over it was probably a bad group to begin with. if eloram is stealing stuff from other mods that is total unacceptable and i would not want to work with that person. however this is my opinion and by no means right. I would say drop forge BTW can stand alone better then any other mod that ive seen
just my thoughts take them how you will

[FlowerChild]

To - hell yes it would be fun. It would be either extremely elaborate joke (in which case it would be awesome) or the mysterious builder finds concepts of my castles/tower to try to improve. It would give me a motivation to create better and more elaborate builds to see how he improves them.

I'm not willing to compete with her like that man, and it definitely isn't an elaborate joke in this case.

I was tempted to go the competition route for awhile, but there are a couple of factors here to consider:

-I'm not willing to do the Tile Entity thing because I personally believe it comes along with unacceptable performance costs. This means that for stuff like sub-blocks, there's simply no competing with the variety and functionality she's providing in that regard, and I'd be fighting with one hand behind my back.

-In most cases, competing with her features would mean doing the same thing she's done, and just making a more powerful version of an existing feature from another mod. Obviously, this throws game-balance right out the window and I do not think it would benefit the mod. Also, being someone who is primarily interested in game design, I find taking another person's approach to a problem and just building a "better" copy is rather dull and uncreative.

So yeah, I just don't see myself having very much fun at all going that route.

[JRoush]

However, as to whether she's more talented than I am (which seems to be what you're implying), man, there's a lot of variables to that equation and I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess

You're certainly very talented yourself, FC. My admiration for your work has grown considerably since I started following progress of BTW a few months ago :)

I'm not going to try and defend anyone's design choices here. But you did ask for feedback, and this is mine: Eloraam is ambitious and surprisingly effective in her flattery. Ignoring her may bring peace of mind, but don't expect anyone to be impressed by it. I don't mean that to be derisive, just honest.

[DaveYanakov]

I'm one of those who appreciates that you take performance into account. Most of the friends I'd want to play an SMP version of BTW with Don't have much in the way of gaming rigs as most of the gaming we do is based on the engines of the previous decade. Half Life 2 mods in particular. Thank you again for taking the effort to avoid straining our processors.

[Ferrus.Manus]

Yeah, I understand that, it simply pointing that was bad analogy, both due time (sure I won't be angry if someone copied castle I spend half a day building. A mod with months of work put in it is a different matter) and concept (a castle or a tower is hardly an original ideas). (I also don't think that tubes are strictly "more powerful" version of pipes, they have their own limitations, but I'll drop this now since it's rather offtopic).

Well if you decide to go zero compatibility mode it would open a lot of block IDs for you since you won't need to worry about leaving space for other mods. Always should look at positive things.

[Sky_Som]

If you do end up dropping forge, I know I will choose this mod. Ive come to enjoy the extra little things that IC and BC add along side BTW but without BTW they are not enough. Would I be a little disappointed with the choice, yes, but I think after two minutes of playing I would forget about it. This mod has really change the way I play MC(mostly because it forced me to start playing with redstone and now I see the fun of working with it.(Thanks))

What I really would rather see is You, Spacetoad, Alb, and the modder who does Railcraft take your own hooks out of forge and create the BTF mod (Better than Forge). Its open source so it would not require you to start a new! There would be more people who are easy to get in touch with(Industrial Craft and Buildcraft both have forums and it would allow you to work with as you please while still maintaining some compatability with other mods(It would give modders a choice to switch and would help find a happy medium.)

[Rugaard]

i actually wouldn't be surprised if FC dropping forge may cause some of the other moders using forge to start thinking about dropping it as well as i see it now and as many of you have stated, forge seems to be more of a way for Eloraam to gain ideas for her mod as well as to make every other mod that joins to be compatible with her mod rahter than all mods compatible with each other, I've noticed a few of the forge mods I've tried aren't compatible with each other

[Deva]

I wouldnt mind switching out from the forge to a different API as it stands the forge hates me when I install it took me awhile to get BTW to work lately I have been trying to get RP2 to work to understand the hype to no avail. The only other mods I use are things like Mo' Creatures and Fossil Mod to make the world seem more lively and a few utility mods like wireless radio and lasers. I can see the appeal in things like BC or IC but then again have never tried them and as this mod progresses through the ages I doubt I will ever need to use them.

[Dralnalak]

FlowerChild, my take on this is fairly straightforward: To me, Minecraft isn't Minecraft without Better Than Wolves. Where this mod goes, I go. I care far more about your keeping the burnout away than I do about other mod compatibility.

While I always try it pure vanilla first just to see what that's like, Better Than Wolves has become so much a part of the game I play that I have not really enjoyed the pure-vanilla experiments at the 1.8 and 1.0 updates. It felt like I was only playing a demo; part of the game was simply missing.

Myself, I use only two mods: MCPatcher and Timber!. Of those two, MCPatcher is the only one I care about because I found a high resolution texture pack that greatly reduces my video game induced motion sickness when playing Minecraft. Losing Forge won't break anything for me.


My only suggestion is that you decide to simply not read the official Minecraft forum Better Than Wolves thread for a few weeks or months after you do this. I suggest this for the sake of your sanity and enjoyment of the mod.

[misterwuggles]

If you lose some compatibility you're likely going to lose some players. You won't lose me though. BTW 4 lyfe. <3

Srsly though some folks really love compatibility, but in the end it's a privilege and not a right. It's not your responsibility to work around other mods and people just because they're popular or it's the right thing to do or whatever. It's nice, but I don't EXPECT it and neither should anyone else. I'm pretty sure a large portion of the reason BTW is currently so rad is because you go with your gut and do what you enjoy, so I'd say keep on doing that.


Interestingly enough, I would actually attribute the fact that I now play BTW alone to RP2. There was a point where I wanted to try a combination of the technical mods, and RP2 created such an insane amount of waste via overlapping and extraneous features that I just didn't want to even bother with trying to mix mods. At first I considered just playing RP2 alone, since it seemed to offer the same general features of IC/BC in addition to the circuitry features of RP. Then, I became annoyed at RP2 and what it seemed to be doing, since it essentially obsoleted IC/BC's enjoyable features with extremely similar yet significantly less enjoyable features (this is all for me personally, I know there are many smaller details I'm not touching on due to ignorance or what-have-you). In the end, I decided to just cut RP2 from the list. Then I got to thinking that if I'm cutting the super high-tech that obsoletes everything, I might as well cut the high-tech that obsoletes the low-tech as well, and that left BTW. While I settled on BTW for the low-tech, I came to love it because of a proper sense of progression and accomplishment, unique and interesting features, and high quality of work.

Anyway, since compatibility is a focal point here, I'd like to say this: For me, RP2 is exactly as compatible with IC/BC in particular as BTW would be if FC decided to remove all compatibility. It's not only about straight up code compatibility for some of the people playing this stuff. As such, I don't exactly see the Forge as a cure-all that absolutely must be developed or the modding world will sink into darkness unless you suck it up and truck through it no matter how much you disagree with anything the other folks involved do. I don't particularly care one way or another if it's dropped.

Also, I'm well aware that I am grossly uninformed on the technical aspects (such as details of the Forge or RP2 features) of all of this. I'd prefer to keep it that way, as I don't particularly care about that stuff. I'd also like to apologize for my bias against RP2. I made every effort to keep it tame since I'm not fully informed on the matter and it doesn't belong here anyway. I hope it's within acceptable limits.

[FlowerChild]

My only suggestion is that you decide to simply not read the official Minecraft forum Better Than Wolves thread for a few weeks or months after you do this. I suggest this for the sake of your sanity and enjoyment of the mod.

Hehe...that is probably good advice, but I think things only really get to me when I don't expect them. Both the Yogaboo invasion and the Technic thing were good examples. They both just came out of the blue and caught me off guard.

Something like this, I know it will be hell, much like when I named the mod the way I did. When I know I'm going into a fight, it's really not that bad, and if I approach it right, can even be quite entertaining ;)

Besides, now might actually be a better time than most. With the recent publicity that Yogscast/Technic have given to the other tech mods, I get the impression that's where most of the knuckle-draggers are focusing their attention these days, causing BTW to temporarily drift out of the spotlight. If you take a look at MCF you can see this in how the update-crazies are nowhere close to the level they've previously been at.

So yeah, all in all, I think it will be only a minor shit-storm, and one that I'll be prepared for ;)

[Gilberreke]

After getting my composure a bit over this, I have the following to say:

BTW was the first mod I ever installed
It has never left my jar since then
It never will

The rest is just fluff

[morvelaira]

So yeah, all in all, I think it will be only a minor shit-storm, and one that I'll be prepared for ;)

Even still -
We're here for you honey, at least those of us who have become well and truly addicted to this community. It's why we followed you here, after all.

[Rugaard]

After getting my composure a bit over this, I have the following to say:

BTW was the first mod I ever installed
It has never left my jar since then
It never will

The rest is just fluff

exact same thing here, i see that BTW adds life to MC while most other mods just add fluff

[Kwilt]

To be honest, I just can't take heads or tails on this consideration. I just really can't make my mind up as to whether I agree with you or not.

I mean, I'm not saying you shouldn't do what you want to do. But really, there are just some pretty big pros and cons to consider. I know I'll keep up here whatever the choice, though. Definitely a colorful community, and the mod has definitely gone places that I love.