Considering dropping Forge

[FlowerChild]

I can't justify putting a limit on what a modder can add to their mods. It's up to you what you do. But I'm not harboring any bad feelings to anyone in this.

And neither am I suggesting a limit. Again, I'm talking about what I'm willing to collaborate with. That's putting a limit on myself, not on her.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I can't justify putting a limit on what a modder can add to their mods. It's up to you what you do. But I'm not harboring any bad feelings to anyone in this.

But monopolising the forge development IS a major issue, especially if she puts in it whatever suits her OWN mod. The forge is supposed to be a community effort, for the community. :/

[morvelaira]

.................................................. woah, I think i just saw words written by a power-hungry modding-megalomaniac........

FC is right about the not being reconcilable stuff........

The problem with this is that because of one mod (or modder) compatibility with a lot of other good mods will end. That just doesn't seem right.

It's not right. It's not fair.

But it's the way things go, sometimes.

[Dr Ug]

So... something can be unoriginal, and not be ripped off... interesting.

As someone who found BTW due to forge, I would miss the compatibility, but would (as most have said here) prefer to have improved BTW development than continued compatibility with what are (mostly) overpowered mods. I think railcraft would be the main one that I would miss.

Have you had any response from SpaceToad / other modders who use forge? If it really is just Eloraam's megalomania, perhaps a fork (which others may be willing to maintain, if you're not interested in this) removing her excessive features would be an option?

[FlowerChild]

Wait, so the forge is lost to everyone because a single person goes out of control? So rather than confront her about it as a team, you will all let a good idea crumble? Doesn't this bug you?

I can't speak for others man, only myself. And sure, it bugs me, but I also don't want to get dragged-down by some huge political fight within the modding scene. I just want to work on my mod and have fun doing so, and frankly, I'm a little tired of the constant fighting that's gone along with it.

And I sincerely doubt the Forge will crumble as a result of this. My impression is at this point, the BTW community is one of the smaller ones out of the major Forge mods, but one of the most loyal consisting of people that are primarily interested in game balance, and that this move will do very little to hurt Forge, while it will probably result in the number of people using BTW plummeting.

The other tech mods offer more powerful ways of doing pretty much everything that BTW can do, and I think the majority of people will just go with the power. I think by now, most of the people that are really passionate about using it have realized that BTW is best played on its own anyways.

As I said awhile ago, I'm rather sick of worrying about compatibility, and this whole ongoing problem with the Forge was part of why I came to that realization.

I have no illusions about this being some kind of power play man. I fully expect BTW's popularity to be the most affected by any decisions I make here.

[Ferrus.Manus]

I personally understand Eloraam's reason for the implementation of tubes - they are integral to lot of aspects of the RP2 and having to rely on other mod written by other person for your mod to function would a be logistical nightmare. And personally I find them much more elegantly designed than the pipes. And as that frame video showed she made showed that she makes some things that are definitely not a ripoff. I agree that flax was completely unnecessary but it's not integral and my guess she only implemented it to give some possibilities for automated farms.
But the code bloat for Forge is a different problem whatsoever and something must be done to solve it, including dropping Forge if other options are not viable. I personally would prefer being able to play BtW together with other mods and would be really happy if some compromise could be reached (like the one you mentioned above with your own Forge version, or Eloraam's Forge version), but then again BtW is rather good stand alone mod and I could just live with 2 different installations.
So tl;dr: do what you feel best for the mod but try to explore possible solution before dropping Forge completely.

[Mason11987]

I've frequently played BTW with other mods but it never felt right.

If my options are BTW as you envision it, or BTW that's restricted but compatible with other people's mods, I would always choose the former.

As a meta discussion point, might I suggest that people withhold the inflammatory language in either direction? If I know anything about the minecraft community it's that they overreact aggressively to basically everything and are immediately available to pick a side and start shooting at a moments notice. Could I urge perhaps this community to relax and offer your opinions without devolving into overblown insults?

[fullsailor]

I suggest that we fork the Forge, put it up on Github where anybody can submit a pull request. Have a few of the original Forge contributors become the core team for the new Forge.

The Forge initiative and purpose has merit. I would be sad to see it abandoned.

Just because Elo shit in the sandbox doesn't mean other Forge modders won't want to play nicely.

[FlowerChild]

I personally understand Eloraam's reason for the implementation of tubes - they are integral to lot of aspects of the RP2 and having to rely on other mod written by other person for your mod to function would a be logistical nightmare.

Man, there's implementing a certain kind of functionality, then there's just whole-sale copying of an idea right down to the way something looks.

Sure, I perfectly understand the need for a transport system in a mod. I have my own, but at the same time, I don't think anyone would call the Hopper a rip-off of Buildcraft pipes. I understand the need to automate mining, but again, I don't think anyone would compare Mining Charges to Quarries.

Pretty much any game-design problem has infinite potential solutions. Given that, I fail to see any need whatsoever to parrot the implementation details of other mods, ESPECIALLY those whose authors you are supposedly collaborating with for the good of the overall community.

There's a line there man, and while it may be blurry, as I said, I saw a point at which I had no doubt that it had been repeatedly and intentionally crossed.

[MoRmEnGiL]

*Snip*

I thought railcraft's creator had issues with it as well, and well, Spacetoad should be having issues even if he is not..

But as I said, the moment BtW development stops being a load of fun for you is the moment it starts having no point. I can't stress this enough, it is one of the most important factors in creating anything with an artistic aspect, and arguably anything at all. So whatever you do I am right behind you as I said. :]

[FlowerChild]

Oh, dude, let me make this clear:

I *KNOW* I am not the only one that has issues with her behavior. However, as I said, I can not (or more precisely, will not) speak for others.

[Robilar]

Honestly, I think after playing the mod and lurking for as long as I have, I have a ranked hierarchy for what's important.

1. FC's Fun.
2. The mod itself.
3. Mechanical mod additions.
4. Fun mod additions.
5. Compatibility.
6. The unwashed masses.

Given you can retain infinite sprites, and that the forge is messing with 1-4, I think the best route would be to drop the forge. My Minecraft experience is based completely on how BTW works. Sure, Railcraft or whatever it was looked interesting, but any mods I add in are purely to go with BTW in some way. If breaking compatibility means more assless chaps, then tie me up.

[FlowerChild]

Hehe...on a bit of a tangent, I just had the amusing thought of advertising the mod as being the one that's compatible with *nothing* if I go this route.

I agree with what others have said about the reaction on MCF to this. I think I might head it off in my usual style by rubbing my nipples with glee as I promote incompatibility as some kind of feature ;)

[BinoAl]

Hehe...on a bit of a tangent, I just had the amusing thought of advertising the mod as being the one that's compatible with *nothing* if I go this route.

I agree with what others have said about the reaction on MCF to this. I think I might head it off in my usual style by rubbing my nipples with glee as I promote incompatibility as some kind of feature ;)

Hah. I like this though. Er, the advertising the incompatibility, not the whole nipples thing. xD

[Robilar]

I agree with what others have said about the reaction on MCF to this. I think I might head it off in my usual style by rubbing my nipples with glee as I promote incompatibility as some kind of feature ;)

Oh god, Why did I picture this? I'm very glad you added soap, I need to go wash my brain.

[Ferrus.Manus]

Yes, the base concept and function of pipes and tubes are more or less identical but implementation and detailed functionality are very different. Rip-off is way too strong of the word, I wouldn't even call it a copy.

Also there's two different issues here:
1. Eloraam duplicating some concepts/functionally of other mods, to which (again, IMO, I seriuosly don't want to start angry argument or troll you) you seem be overreacting a bit.

2. Eloraam's code bloating Forge which is the main issue here and I think you being overly angry (once again, IMO, you are fully entitled to have your opinion and ignore mine) over problem 1 are getting in a way of properly communicating with Eloraam in order to find a solution. Quitting Forge should be last ditch solution, I think you and other mod authors who a having an issue with the code bloat (how many there are actually?) as well as Eloraam herself should try to find solution which would help Forge to continue existing.

[morvelaira]

Hehe...on a bit of a tangent, I just had the amusing thought of advertising the mod as being the one that's compatible with *nothing* if I go this route.

I agree with what others have said about the reaction on MCF to this. I think I might head it off in my usual style by rubbing my nipples with glee as I promote incompatibility as some kind of feature ;)

Hah. I like this though. Er, the advertising the incompatibility, not the whole nipples thing. xD

I dunno, man. I kind of like the rubbing nipples thing.

Just sayin'.


On Topic: And as Robilar said much better than I could... the situation is messing with too many things to be worth it, chief of which is your happiness FC. Be happy! Do it!

[CreeperCommando]

Hehe...on a bit of a tangent, I just had the amusing thought of advertising the mod as being the one that's compatible with *nothing* if I go this route.
-snip-

XD
Like the ad idea there, reminded me of Notgoogle+ ad on collegehumour http://www.collegehumor.com/video/66119 ... oogle-plus

Maybe you could add that it's an antisocial-network integrated in BTW?

It's bloody 3.50 am in Sweden, so I'll finally go to bed, see you (assless-)chaps in the morning!

[FlowerChild]

Yes, the base concept and function of pipes and tubes are more or less identical but implementation and detailed functionality are very different. Rip-off is way too strong of the word, I wouldn't even call it a copy.

Also there's two different issues here:
1. Eloraam duplicating some concepts/functionally of other mods, to which (again, IMO, I seriuosly don't want to start angry argument or troll you) you seem be overreacting a bit.

2. Eloraam's code bloating Forge which is the main issue here and I think you being overly angry (once again, IMO, you are fully entitled to have your opinion and ignore mine) over problem 1 are getting in a way of properly communicating with Eloraam in order to find a solution. Quitting Forge should be last ditch solution, I think you and other mod authors who a having an issue with the code bloat (how many there are actually?) as well as Eloraam herself should try to find solution which would help Forge to continue existing.

I've had a lot of time to think about this man. This has been an ongoing issue for quite a long time now (multiple months), and I'm not even particularly angry about it anymore.

Also, Eloraam and I have talked (and argued) ad nauseam about these issues in the past. There's no middle-ground to be had in it.

I'd be happy to be part of the Forge is she weren't, but I'm not willing to be part of it while she is. This may be the first you've heard of it, because, as I said, I kept it quiet for the sake of keeping the peace, but that in no way means it just started.

Her recent denials of knowing anything about it are just plain old bullshit or a major case of denial. I personally think it's the former.

[Ferrus.Manus]

And what about other mod authors? Because if a lot of people are having problem with a one person something should be done about that person. Maybe not straight "GTFO" but something should be done other than dropping Forge altogether. But it's hard to comment on this since I have no idea about what is opinion of other mod authors (especially major ones like Alblaka, SpaceToad and x3n0ph0b3) about all this.

[BigShinyToys]

It sounds like the forge should be run by someone else. or a group of elected representivs. It SHOULD not die cos of elo actions.yes she is out of line but for the sake of compatibilet we the comunity NEED it or somthing that does the same thing.

[morvelaira]

So, what ought to be done? How can anyone /make/ Eloraam give up the secrets of everything she's done so far? I mean, it's not practical to change the way it's done at this point.

[Gilberreke]

And what about other mod authors? Because if a lot of people are having problem with a one person something should be done about that person. Maybe not straight "GTFO" but something should be done other than dropping Forge altogether. But it's hard to comment on this since I have no idea about what is opinion of other mod authors (especially major ones like Alblaka, SpaceToad and x3n0ph0b3) about all this.

Eloraam + SpaceToad + FlowerChild = Forge. Alblaka and x3n0ph0b3 are not part of the core team and have no say in this, they merely use the Forge API. SpaceToad generally doesn't care as long as his hooks get added, so FC is alone in this.

At this point in time, Forge = Eloraam. If FC can't work with her, he can't use Forge.

Also, people should maybe stop telling FC to kiss and make up, I think if that were on the table, he would.

[FlowerChild]

So, what ought to be done? How can anyone /make/ Eloraam give up the secrets of everything she's done so far? I mean, it's not practical to change the way it's done at this point.

There's no secrets. The thing is open source. Her coding style is certainly obtuse (given that she doesn't seem particularly concerned with meaningful variable names or code comments), and I've even wondered at times if it's intentionally so (to make the API even more dependent on her in particular), but with some elbow grease you can get through it. The problem is more of a matter of who wants to wade through all that stuff to figure it out and be the one to maintain it. I certainly don't want to.

So, for me, the easy solution to how to solve it is just get the fuck out of Dodge ;)

[FlowerChild]

Also, people should maybe stop telling FC to kiss and make up, I think if that were on the table, he would.

Eh...not so much ;)

We've already "reconciled" our differences a number of times. I'm not up for another go.