Considering dropping Forge

[Ecu]

I've said it multiple times and I'll say it again. I fully support FC in his decision to remove Forge from BTW. I think that it could indeed lead to a better mod and would seemingly be less stressful for FC (both great things). However, the view in which FC is painting Eloraam isn't being done so with half-truths. If FC was stating something along the lines of him just having a personality clash with Eloraam, then I wouldn't really care. People clash some times, it happens.

That isn't what is being done though. Eloraam is being painted as some evil dictator that wants to ruin all other mods purely to sell her own game. These accusations are just false. They come from what seems to be an emotional state that FC is currently in and at most have half-truths to back them up.

Sure, this is FC's forum and focused around fans of BTW (myself being one of said fans). However, does that mean people shouldn't take the time to actually learn about the person they are condemning?

[walker_boh_65]

You seem to have strong opinions about Elo, so I can't believe you are writing this unbiased. I can not say I am not biased toward support of FC, hell I know I am, but I can say I am unbiased toward Elo, and I have read the same stuff as everyone else, and the evidence does add up. But if you can show some prove that FC is making this whole thing up, I would love to take a look at it.

It appears this has been quoted out of context, I was saying this seems like a likely (to a point) outcome of what would happen if FC did not do what he did, so I apologize for the confusion. I should have worded it a lot better.

Where's the evidence that you're talking about for what FC says? I had people in the IRC say they took a look at Forge SVN and don't see much in there at all that is specifically for RP, whereas they said they saw a few hooks that were added for FC (I didn't look my self, just repeating what I was told).

Well, yeah of course there would be hooks added by FC, thats how the fore works. But I am not a part of it, nor do I understand code, so therefore I cannot understand what is behind the hooks the Elo added, nor the quantity/lack thereof. My understanding was the Elo would change vMC code so that it would better fit her mod, not a bad thing, but something the FC would not do. I also get the impression that Elo is the only one who really writes the forge, therefore modders who use forge have to wait for her to update the souce preject.

How about FC's statement that Eloraam is trying to implement other mod's features purely for the purpose of ousting other mods. Where is there any proof if this? The statement alone seems like something someone paranoid would say, in my opinion. Eloraam has shown that she has definite plans for her mod. She's added many elements that just don't have use yet (gemstones, tunston (sp?) ) purely because she hasn't gotten to that point in her tech tree. However, since her mod is meant for automation and technology, the first things you are going to see are things that further automation, aka tubes, sorters, etc.

It was not the fact the she it, it was the fact that she did it to mod authors that she was working with. Although I understand your point here, I just cannot fathom why someone would do this at all. I am too opposed to stealing of ideas to understand why someone would make something even similar to someone else.

She encouraged me to do so.

Fair enough, just as long as you understand why some people could get very angry about this sort of thing.

Maybe hate is the wrong word, but it does seem to fit the context as FC does seem to be rather emotional over all of this, in a negative fashion, towards Eloraam.

I don't see hate at all. What I am picking up is such a difference in personalities that working together no longer would work.

As for standing up for Eloraam. I'm sorry, but if someone is going to sit and speak half-truths about someone I consider a friend of course I'm going to say something.

Again where is the proof that these are not true at all.

And this will be my last post on the matter the ECU has brought up, for Storm is right, we shouldnt be discussing things how we are, but how this will change BTW.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I just want to quickly step in here and mention that all of you who are puzzled by FC's feelings of hostility coming from Elo, you have the point of view of an outsider in this entire thing.

When you have worked hard on something, and when you believe in a communal effort on a joint project, you expect some respect and some, you know, good will and friendly atmosphere. Imagine if (extreme example) Jeb suddenly started making a minecraft clone and marketing it, wouldn't that piss notch off? Damn right it would,even when he is not pissed at all from the other minecraft clones around. Extreme example and maybe not really the same thing, but I'm just trying to make a point.

Each person has some standards in his work, even if that work is just for fun. If in a collaboration the atmosphere does not meet those standards, there is an issue right there that has to be resolved before it gets really out of hand.

Its kinda like that person at work, who, while supposedly working together, he is just trying to outdo you so the boss takes notice of him, at the expense of you. Maybe you can't really blame him, but that doesn't mean you can't feel offended and attacked, nor that you shouldn't do anything about it and just live with it.

As a final though, I don not believe in objectivity, in my eyes, everything in life is subjective. Trying to defend Elo and insisting she didn't steal anything and FC is lying about her is pointless. For me what she does might be downright theft, for you it might be a natural progression and someone else might be totally indifferent. Playing defender of the truth won't get you anywhere. and eloraam does not need you championing her. She'll manage. If FC says he's feeling hostility coming, that is very real for him. From that point onwards, we can argue back and forth for days but if I find my neighbour obnoxious, then the issue is there and it is real even if you don't. And especially when he is not your neighbour, stop trying to tell me that he's not obnoxious please.

[Ecu]

If you want proof on the matter, I would suggest that you take a look at the Forge source (if you are savy enough to understand it). Another option would be to look at the various responses in the MCF thread as there doesn't seem to be any issues with Eloraam there really (and you would think their would be if she was indeed only working to benefit RP). What I'm trying to explain is that there is nothing backing FC's statements about Eloraam. I looked myself, and the closest I managed to find is ST's comments about Eloraam doing most of the development currently (which is mostly due to no one else stepping up to bat).

Since it was asked that we change the subject, this will be my last post on the matter until FC has a chance to respond.

As far as the original topic is concerned, I think its pretty much settled already. BTW will remove Forge and will hopefully become better for doing so. I'll personally keep an eye on it as I find it a very awesome mod. I won't likely use it all that much personally because, I am more of a fan of machines and automation. However, I would recommend BTW to anyone interested in extending their gameplay experience with MC.

[Stormweaver]

Well, as for what I'm doing to facilitate the change, the tutorial map is coming on quite nicely. A bit slower than expected perhaps (At my current rate, the redstone basics section should be done by tonight; but I haven't been interrupted much yet) but I think some of that's down to me trying to make things pretty as I go along, as opposed to just getting the functional bits down then tidying it up.

Also, turns out wicker looks half decent as a roof.

Spoiler

Show

I'm starting to realise why people tend to dismiss creative mode when it comes to making custom maps.

[nukularpower]

First, Eloraam. I can certainly understand your sentiments here. I lost a bit of respect for her where she first revealed her tubes or whatever they are called. And I too find her notoriously hard to contact or bounce ideas off of.

Second, Forge. While I won't comment on whether Forge is becoming increasingly invasive or not, I will comment on the project as a whole. What I see from Forge is that there is NO avenue to discuss or request hooks short of contacting Eloraam directly. There is no forum, the MC Forum thread is only read by me and powercrystals it seems, and I've never once seen SpaceToad chime in. The project is not open at all. And I have seen a disturbing trend in that only hooks Redpower needs get implemented, and only when Redpower needs them. Alternatively, I personally have no desire to maintain Forge, but if I could I would only maintain my small part of it as I could (namely minecarts and rails). So I can sort of understand why its mostly only Redpower hooks that get added.

Going back a ways but oh well. Just wanted to say that it seems like a two edged sword here - only Redpower stuff is being added to Forge, but no one else wants to develop/update it. Personal issues aside, it seems pretty inevitable that things would go this direction if no one else really wants to work on it (or create a tracker, or what have you) - expecting Eloraam alone to develop it for other mods is pretty unrealistic.

Two other quick thoughts. Flowerchild is probably the most responsive modder I have seen.. but only on this forum. The second one would be Eloraam - she answers every post someone makes on her blog, even from a nobody like me (in the MC modding world), usually within an hour. I'm sure it's different for you guys, but I certainly wouldn't call her hard to contact.

Lastly, while her pipes seem to be causing irritation, it's also logical - she wants item transport in her mod, but relying on everyone having buildcraft is bad for the same reasons FC didn't want to rely on Forge. And frankly, her one single pipe does almost everything that the 15+ buildcraft pipes do (and what it doesn't do, it will soon, according to her) and is a lot less messy and confusing to use. Maybe that still makes her a copycat, but ease of use counts for a lot to me since I play SMP with people that don't really get Buildcraft and trying to explain when you need this pipe or that one can make your brain start to melt (and yes, most of them are female ;) )

All that aside, it's a tough situation, but I think that, in FC's shoes, I would make the same call. Especially if it's true that Forge doesn't get updated until Redpower 1.0 is ready - that is just shady, and at that point it certainly isn't a collaboration anymore - though whether that's good or bad I can't say. After all, modloader isn't a collaboration, for example (and to me they pretty much work the same, just being a user ^ ^ ) Anyways, looking forward to the future of BTW!

[Magmarashi]

[(and yes, most of them are female ;) )

Are you serious? What the hell, man?

[nukularpower]

It's true... coincidence or maybe not!

[Magmarashi]

It's true... coincidence or maybe not!

You are clearly misunderstanding what I meant.

I am not surprised females play games, or even minecraft.

I am surprised you would equate their inability to understand a mod's workings with them being female. This was not something funny I was pointing out, that is seriously fucking messed up and you shouldn't be finding it funny.

[Stormweaver]

-snip-

Way to ignore the mutual end to discussion about this. So much fail. Oh, so much fail.

On topic: Bah, got interrupted >.>

[Dreadwraith]

I can see that this is very quickly going from peaceful discussion to flame war.

[Dralnalak]

I'm honestly just trying to get people to open their eyes and not blindly believe FC when the statements are not true. That's really all that I would like to achieve. I have no intention of convincing FC to go back to Forge and I'm not saying BTW is a bad mod (quite the opposite in fact). I just think that people are judging Eloraam without actually doing any research for themselves (of course, I'm not referring to yourself).

This isn't a cult that will soak up every opinion FlowerChild has blindly. :) I am going to go out on a limb and say that for the silent majority, and even myself who's not entirely silent, it really comes down to:

"Eloraam? Who? Never mind; doesn't matter. You're pulling out of Forge because it will make you enjoy the mod more? Go for it. Let me know when the next download of Better Than Wolves is because I'm going to get back to playing with the cool new stuff you put in the last couple of downloads."

Really, the only thing that matters is that FlowerChild doesn't want to work with the Forge anymore, so Better Than Wolves will be extracted. Everything else seems like sound and fury, especially since FlowerChild has already announced that he's withdrawn from the Forge so it's a done deal.

Feel free to continue debating each other if that's what's fun for you. Me, I'm getting back to that new structure I was working on...

[FlowerChild]

That isn't what is being done though. Eloraam is being painted as some evil dictator that wants to ruin all other mods purely to sell her own game. These accusations are just false. They come from what seems to be an emotional state that FC is currently in and at most have half-truths to back them up.

You've said this over and over and over again during the past several hours, and the thought that always comes to mind when I read it is this:

"This guy has no proof Eloraam isn't doing what I say she is either".

You keep asking me to provide proof for my "baseless" and "false" statements, but you can offer none in her defense, and you certainly can't say they're "false" either. We're talking about her perceived motivations and intents here, and all any of us can have on that is opinions.

My opinions of her are based on the eery similarity of the features she has been making, that comes across *to me* as a concerted effort to rip off the other primary Forge mods and establish the dominance of her mod. It's based on an accumulation of observational data, not any kind of smoking gun.

All I need to do is read over her Blog, read the comments on each post, look at the screen-shots, and this is immediately apparent. I strongly encourage others to do the same and form their *own* opinions.

She has also been stating her opinion quite strongly, nonchalantly dismissing objections to her copying features as if it is no big deal and seemingly bragging about how she's almost the only contributor to the Forge at this point as if it is a good thing.

She's been publicly stating those opinions for a very long while now, while I've just been keeping my mouth shut about it. Well, I'm presenting the counter-point that *it is* a big deal, and that she's pissing off other prominent modders (who have contributed just as much to the community), such as myself, in the process.

And frankly man, I do consider her to be a threat to the modding community, and I am quite happy to be the first person to stand up on this and say "enough".

As I've said many times as well, I'm not trying to limit what she can and can't do, so it's pointless for you to be arguing this from that standpoint. What I am placing limits on is what I am personally willing to put up with.

Is that all opinion? Yes, of course it is. That doesn't mean I shouldn't express it in explaining to players of the mod what has lead up to me leaving the Forge, or in defending my stance against people who attack it. Again, she has her own venue for expressing her opinions and has been doing so all the while.

And with that, I'll be locking this thread down. In reality, it served its purpose within the first 24 hours, when this was still a decision and not a done deal, and as others have already observed, it's quickly devolving into a flame war. I'll take any further discussions about alternative API's and such off the forums, where they probably should be.

I've let both sides freely state their views here and haven't censored a bit of it, but it's run its course now.

EDIT: I will issue a warning for the blatantly sexist statement above however.