Considering dropping Forge

[morvelaira]

As for me, I don't need forge, or the compatibility it brings. I was interested in Buildcraft for a while, but it just couldn't hold my attention.

Beyond that... It really is your mod, hun. Those of us who have been here since before forge went through hoops to combine mods, and those of us who love your mod dearly will jump through them again if we have to.

Besides... we have walker! Mod installer tech guru guy, right?

[Elensaar]

It's too bad that things have gone that awry with the Forge. I really loved the concept of the API when it first started... It doesn't sound like something that could be easily worked out though, and I agree with the sentiment thus far in this thread: Do what's best for the future of BTW.

Sure some people might be frustrated if they suddenly can't use RedPower or BC if they want BTW, but if it's sucking out the fun of working with the mod, I'd rather have BTW alone than any other mods. (The only other ones I use is Somnia and BOD, and those will probably stay compatible. And maybe compatibility with Nature Overhaul will return, and that would rock!)

[Pseudosavior]

As with a lot of the others here, I use quite a bit of mods, but BTW is, and always will be top priority. If you drop Forge, than by all means, I will drop any mod that becomes uncompatible. Needless to say, I'm kind of disappointed in Elo for this, never thought she'd be like that. Still, do whatever is the best for you (and this mod).

[CreeperCommando]

What about overrighting the forge classes and add the hooks you need yourself? I don't know how hard to mantain this would be, or even if you are allowed to do that... Assuming you are though, after you have whatever methods you need, you'd probably just have to copy/paste them over whenever the forge was updated, which doesn't happen all that often anyway...

Well, I don't know exactly how adding hooks to the forge work, so tell me if I'm speaking madness :P

Problem then is probably that you'd get two different API's in the end and given FC's popularity, or what I've heard of it on vMC..... If the other guys from forge were on it, it'd be a mutiny... Only FC though, it'd be an execution...... :'(



reedit:

EDIT: And BTW, I do still believe in what the Forge represents. I just think it's unfortunate that what had great potential for being a collaborative effort turned out to be dominated by a single modder with a very definite agenda.

Edit: of course your general opinions are the same about what it could have been. What I meant was that a project (the object, not the principle) you liked, pretty much went down the drain (in lack of better wording) in front of your eyes...

I don't get it, how can you not like FC? He's almost cuddly! except for a pointy banhammer of course but people get used to that ;)

[walker_boh_65]

Besides... we have walker! Mod installer tech guru guy, right?

Not how I would describe myself at all, but yes, I will do the very best to find any workarounds, but I will not make any promises for success, if FC does indeed drop Forge.

[Gilberreke]

Besides... we have walker! Mod installer tech guru guy, right?

I don't think you understand. Dropping Forge would mean incompatibility with every Forge mod out there, guaranteed. There would be no way to make BTW compatible with any of them, in any way. Hence why FC is having this thread. It'd be a non-issue otherwise, but given the circumstances, it would mean unfixable non-compatibility with 80% of the mods that are currently used by BTW users.

[Pseudosavior]

Besides... we have walker! Mod installer tech guru guy, right?

I don't think you understand. Dropping Forge would mean incompatibility with every Forge mod out there, guaranteed. There would be no way to make BTW compatible with any of them, in any way. Hence why FC is having this thread. It'd be a non-issue otherwise, but given the circumstances, it would mean unfixable non-compatibility with 80% of the mods that are currently used by BTW users.

I don't believe that's entirely true. Not all forge mods use the same things, which you can see with some non-forge mods interacting with forge ones. Still, the point stands that a lot of incompatibility would happen.

[FlowerChild]

Problem then is probably that you'd get two different API's in the end and given FC's popularity, or what I've heard of it on vMC..... If the other guys from forge were on it, it'd be a mutiny... Only FC though, it'd be an execution......

Well, technically the license for Forge does allow me to redistribute my own versions of the API, as long as I make the source-code for any changes I make publicly available.

And frankly, that may be a good transitional option while I extract BTW from the API.

One of the things I've been considering is updating the portions of the Forge I require myself to 1.0 so that I'm not dependent on waiting around for Eloraam to update the whole thing, most of which I don't even need.

Then I just release a 1.0 version of BTW, source-code for those sections included, and with no need for players to separately install the Forge.

[PatrickSJ]

As more and more Forge mods evolve I find myself wanting to use the mods together. If BTW dropped Forge I'd probably go back to just BTW, but I'd like to maintain compatibility.

If Forge is open source license would it possible to fork it and make your version available while using the same basic hooks as Forge, drop the unwanted complexity, and make sure it stays KISSed?

[morvelaira]

Besides... we have walker! Mod installer tech guru guy, right?

I don't think you understand. Dropping Forge would mean incompatibility with every Forge mod out there, guaranteed. There would be no way to make BTW compatible with any of them, in any way. Hence why FC is having this thread. It'd be a non-issue otherwise, but given the circumstances, it would mean unfixable non-compatibility with 80% of the mods that are currently used by BTW users.

Oh...

Still - honestly from some of the descriptions I am hearing of what Eloraam has done, it will reach this point anyways. If she continues with her current pattern, she'll get things to a point where the Forge is toxic for anything that isn't her creation. Better to leave on our own terms, at our own planned time, then be forced out on that scale.

[gftweek]

To be honest, I only tried the other forge mods because BTW became forge compatible and the ease of install of combining them made me curious in them. However, I soon got bored of them, or didn't bother to try all their features as they were overpowered or too simplistic compared to doing those things with BTW or vMC.

I'd happily drop other forge mods if it was too much of hassle to maintain forge reliance (either for personal or technical reasons), in the end the main parts of the mods I ended up using were the ore changes as it made mining more interesting when you got a better ratio or ore to cobble (even if I had no use for those ores), but there are plenty of ore mods out there such as BOD (as suggested in the Pure BTW mods topic, and it doesn't require forge), everything else technical can be done in BTW alone, and in more challenging and interesting ways.

[sargunv]

Well, technically the license for Forge does allow me to redistribute my own versions of the API, as long as I make the source-code for any changes I make publicly available.

And frankly, that may be a good transitional option while I extract BTW from the API.

Would it be possible to keep that as the permanent situation rather than being a transitional option?

[jorgebonafe]

Well, technically the license for Forge does allow me to redistribute my own versions of the API, as long as I make the source-code for any changes I make publicly available.

And frankly, that may be a good transitional option while I extract BTW from the API.

One of the things I've been considering is updating the portions of the Forge I require myself to 1.0 so that I'm not dependent on waiting around for Eloraam to update the whole thing, most of which I don't even need.

Then I just release a 1.0 version of BTW, source-code for those sections included, and with no need for players to separately install the Forge.

Humm... but would this be a viable solution in keeping the mod still compatible with other forge mods?

Edit. Ninja'd :P

[CreeperCommando]

(Hopefully Mojang sooner or later will get around to start fixing an official API... and hopefully they'd be reasonable enough to research the modding community to see where to start... (I'll put a big ? here for no reason))
scratch that, I have full confidence that any technical heeby jeebies are no prob for FC


FC my concern is about risks of troll waves, and I'd believe that the last thing you'd want is a flame war of ''you trying to steal forge''. (Would certainly get under my nerves)... You said yourself that you aren't the best PR-person in MCF in your interview, and sadly I've learned that such stuff can produce bad results.


Remember we're with you! You have my sword!!!

And I should probably not type stuff at 2 a.m......

[FlowerChild]

Would it be possible to keep that as the permanent situation rather than being a transitional option?

It's possible, but I could see it being a real pain in the ass with time. I'd much rather detach myself entirely.

[BinoAl]

The only mods I ever use are BTW and TMI. I occasionally play with EE, but not with BTW most of the time. If forge is going to put a limit on what you can do and suck the fun out of modding, by all means, quit using forge. This isn't a job for you, you should be doing it because you enjoy it, and not dealing with things like this :)

[Brethern]

Would a user-maintained compatibility patch be an option here? I'm just thinking out loud.

I'd have to think about it, but I doubt I'd authorize it since it would necessitate redistribution of mod-files and leave the door open for Technic (let's call a spade a spade here).

Technic doesn't want BTW they want water wheels, windmills, and other things they deem juicy out of BTW, the fact is kakemrix only is using BTW for those bits and to piss you off.

The creator isn't dumb he probably could get what he wants working with his pack regardless if forge is used or not.

As for eloraam she can do what she wants. I'd like to use her machines without needing the world alterations but that's beside the point.

[jorgebonafe]

Would it be possible to keep that as the permanent situation rather than being a transitional option?4It's possible, but I could see it being a real pain in the ass with time. I'd much rather detach myself entirely.

I think its an option to consider carefully, before making a huge decision like this. Sorry if I sound... well, like an asshole, but seen as I have no idea of how troublesome that would actually be I feel like I should say this, maybe you should try it for a while, see how much of a pain in the ass it would actually turn out to be. If it really turns out to be unbearable, then go all the way. At least I think its worth a try.

[FlowerChild]

The creator isn't dumb he probably could get what he wants working with his pack regardless if forge is used or not.

Maybe. It still remains that this would cause him increased pain in the process and I find that idea quite pleasing.

As for eloraam she can do what she wants. I'd like to use her machines without needing the world alterations but that's beside the point.

Yup, she certainly can. However, whether I am going to collaborate with her ripping off features from other mods is another matter entirely.

[Gilberreke]

Eloraam's reply (she's talking about this on IRC right now):

[02:38] <@Eloraam> well here's what i have to say...
[02:38] <@Eloraam> The Word of Elo on the matter.
[02:38] <@Eloraam> you can look at all these individual forge mods and see how i "ripped off" IC's power, BC's pipes, BTW's platforms...
[02:39] <@Eloraam> (or BTW's block dispenser i guess, even though i had that idea first and mine are still quite different) but neither of those, not even together, can do what i did
[02:39] <@Eloraam> if you watch the Frames video
[02:39] <@Eloraam> that's a single machine using ALL of those TOGETHER.
[02:40] <@Eloraam> that synthesis is unique to redpower.
[02:41] <@Eloraam> i've been talking about this synthesis for a long while
[02:41] <@Eloraam> hell i even talked about the possibility with FC
[02:41] <@Eloraam> although at the time i considered what i did in that video impossible ;)
[02:42] <@Eloraam> but if you install BC, IC, and BTW together... you still can't build a 3d printer.
[02:44] <@Eloraam> you can't build a horizontal tunnel boring machine like the one that i demonstrated an almost-usable prototype of
[02:44] <@Eloraam> so is that original or a ripoff?
[02:44] * @Eloraam shrugs
[02:45] <@Eloraam> personally i don't know that it's all that original... but it's not a ripoff either IMO.

Redpower Frames

Show

I'm trying to stay out of it and only answered a few questions she had, someone else alerted her of your conundrum

[MoRmEnGiL]

Wait, so the forge is lost to everyone because a single person goes out of control? So rather than confront her about it as a team, you will all let a good idea crumble? Doesn't this bug you?

From what I read it seems that most of the people that use forge for their mods would rather be on your side than hers, so I think there are a couple of options here. You could either talk sense to her, or just fuck it and do a "fork" of the forge and leave her on her own. It'd be a pity to just let it die..

Also one should think compatibility would mean no need to duplicate features of another mod into your mod, something that really bugs me in RP2 development. I mean I'd hate to see every major mod implementing copy/paste features..

In any case, personally it would affect me a bit, seeing how I plan to start a BtW/buildcraft/railcraft world at some point, but the more buildcraft evolves, the more I think I should play it on it's own,so I'm a bit confused.

BUT. And this is a major but. BtW is my new vanilla mc. Ie the main thing I play. So while incompatibility with forge would mean I lose railcraft, I'd rather lose that than BtW optimal development.

Conclusions: I would like to see the forge survive, because it is a step in the right direction in theory, but regardless of that, I'm right behind you whatever you choose to do. Because in the end, it's BtW that matters most.

[FlowerChild]

I'm trying to stay out of it and only answered a few questions she had, someone else alerted her of your conundrum

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. She routinely justifies these kind of things. But really, just take a look at Flax and Pipes and the arguments fall apart. As I said, those two features were what convinced me this had crossed a line I couldn't reconcile.

[CreeperCommando]

.................................................. woah, I think i just saw words written by a power-hungry modding-megalomaniac........

FC is right about the not being reconcilable stuff........

[jorgebonafe]

.................................................. woah, I think i just saw words written by a power-hungry modding-megalomaniac........

FC is right about the not being reconcilable stuff........

The problem with this is that because of one mod (or modder) compatibility with a lot of other good mods will end. That just doesn't seem right.

[Brethern]

I'm trying to stay out of it and only answered a few questions she had, someone else alerted her of your conundrum

Yeah, it doesn't surprise me. She routinely justifies these kind of things. But really, just take a look at Flax and Pipes and the arguments fall apart. As I said, those two features were what convinced me this had crossed a line I couldn't reconcile.

I can't justify putting a limit on what a modder can add to their mods. It's up to you what you do. But I'm not harboring any bad feelings to anyone in this.