Considering dropping Forge

[FlowerChild]

After getting my composure a bit over this, I have the following to say:

I'm surprised you are in any way surprised by this man :)

You actually posted a message a little while ago on these forums that summarized what was going on with the other tech-mods that I found quite reassuring. I'm not sure where the original post is, but I actually quoted it in an email, so I have the text here (I'll just quote the part that relates to Redpower):

RedPower is just becoming a clusterfuck. Eloraam is creating more of an expansion pack to vMC, but the tech tree progresses so fast you can barely call it one. On top of that, the new features are all copies of other mod's items. While I still appreciate her programming skills, it's just becoming a choice between either BTW or RP. RP just doesn't provide the superb gameplay balance BTW offers.

Frankly, it was reassuring for me to hear that people as into tech-mods as yourself were noticing this kind of thing happening and it wasn't just all going by unnoticed while I quietly fumed about it.

[whynocheese]

Hmm lurking is fun and all but this is pretty important. Basically most people want compatibility but won't stop using the mod for compatibility's sake. So the answer is primarily does FC care? But take into account: What is the portion of BTW users that are here just because of windmills, waterr wheels, etc. Would FC care if he lost these people? I think that most users on these forums would stick with the mod and agree that Eloramm's "rip off" content is unacceptable and agree with FC move away from Forge. Would FC care if this mod became one that gained a lesser but more loyal group of followers? I think FC would love to stop looking at MCF and would like to have peace and quiet here.

What i just said will be taken by some as controversial so try not to rage because remember we take pride in the fact we pretend we are better than MCF so lets make good on that. BTW FC opinions are not that well known to me so don't assume i know everything.

[nukularpower]

First off, yes I registered this account to post this. But I just wanted to throw my two cents in as a longtime fan of both RP and BTW.

When I first got into RP (mainly just for the ease of being able to run redstone up a wall and be able to have a door that opens from both sides without needing to build some ridiculous redstone logic gate I don't understand) it didn't have the same sense of copy-catness that it does now. When I saw the pipes, I had (though obviously not to the extent of FC) a similar reaction - why the hell waste time adding transport pipes when buildcraft had done them so well?

Continuing this example because FC said that the pipes were one thing that pushed him over the edge - the thing is, buildcraft has turned into an abominable mess, IMO. The sprites are hideous, the 20183 different types of pipe are confusing, quarries totally break the game, and so on. While RP did steal the pipe idea, Eloraam is doing it in a much more refined and usable way, which, I suppose, could certainly be related to the server analogy FC posted a bit back.

On the other hand, if what she is doing ends up being that much better in practice (and I believe the way she is going with the "stolen" ideas, frankly and after trying all alternatives, is) - I don't know, it's hard to judge her. I have been following her blog on and off for a couple weeks, and I can kind of even see where she is coming from - she has some simply amazing (and original) plans, and if she can pull it all off, then I'd have to say more power to her. But she certainly couldn't accomplish any of them if she was relying on BC pipes, continuing the example.

It would be a shame to withdraw Forge support, imo, but I also have to agree that BTW is best played on its own anyways (or with Balkon's weapon mod, which inconveniently is now Forge dependant >.>.) I really can't hate on Eloraam though - there is certainly something to be said for competent improvement and revision of an idea that someone else really didn't think too much of or take as far as they could have taken it. It's the difference between Bill Gates and Steve Jobs regarding the PC and pretty much the basis for all mods of MC, Better than Wolves included.

While what Eloraam is doing with Forge isn't right, she couldn't take over if everyone else didn't let her. Would it not be possible to turn the situation to your advantage by using some of the stuff she is writing yourself? Though I guess you wouldn't want to give her more ideas, so to speak. Then again, with an official API coming, it might all be moot one way or the other.

On the note of the Technic pack, I used it for a bit just to try it (after BTW was removed) - and BTW is gone.. they took it out and won't use it any more. Is stopping them anyways really a consideration?

Anyways, no matter what, I will continue to enjoy both mods. No matter how many copies of MC I need to keep! The balance in BTW is superb, and the way it feels to fit with VMC is unique in this kind of mod. I hope you go with whatever helps you preserve that as best as possible. And lastly, not everyone that enjoys mods besides BTW is a knuckle dragger :p

[FlowerChild]

And lastly, not everyone that enjoys mods besides BTW is a knuckle dragger :p

Hehe...no, I wasn't meaning to imply that they were.

I'm mainly talking about the people that we've had problems with in the past due to Yogscast publicity of the mod, and that's not even to say that all Yogscast fans are knuckle-draggers either. It's inevitable that massive amount of publicity will mean that "less informed" people will become aware of the mod.

When this mod started it had a small, loyal, and pretty damn intelligent group of followers that I chatted with on a daily basis. Massive publicity changed that demographic so much that I barely wanted to have anything to do with the community (or even the mod for that matter) until these forums would formed (since I can now arbitrarily rid myself of those that piss me off).

Now, that publicity has shifted over the other tech-mods giving me a bit of breathing room to act without having the unwashed hordes descend upon me like angry locusts. Heck, even this recent fiasco with Notch vs Yogscast probably helps in that regard as people are so busy flaming those two groups that something like this may go by relatively unnoticed.

And BTW: great post, especially considering the topic you signed-up to chime in on :)

P.S. Even though I've barred all discussion on it, since this thread seems to be a massive "airing of grievances", with regard to Notch vs. Yogscast: OMFG have I ever been laughing my ass off.

Notch's most recent "fair enough" is the cherry on the cake. He obviously still blames them and will only issue the most begrudging of apologies. Considering all the hassles the Yogscast have caused me by directing their rabid fan-base at this mod, the irony of having Notch's even bigger fan-base directed at them is absolutely fucking hysterical.

Let the good times roll :)

[whynocheese]

Excellent argument sir!
While i have nil experience buildcraft in fact i only just recently tried it using walker's epic tech abilities I never liked nor got into it because it wasn't easily contrived and i liked that BTW you could say this plus this equal this and you would understand the principles of the equation. That aside i also have not payed attention much to RP2 because i again never understood it because it had RSNOR NOR and other complex loops that i just did not want to try and comprehend. So if we start to debate more along what Eloramm does with her BC "pipes", etc than i will go back to lurking

[Phantum]

And lastly, not everyone that enjoys mods besides BTW is a knuckle dragger :p

Hehe...no, I wasn't meaning to imply that they were.

I'm mainly talking about the people that we've had problems with in the past due to Yogscast publicity of the mod, and that's not even to say that all Yogscast fans are knuckle-draggers either. It's inevitable that massive amount of publicity will mean that "less informed" people will become aware of the mod.

When this mod started it had a small, loyal, and pretty damn intelligent group of followers that I chatted with on a daily basis. Massive publicity changed that demographic so much that I barely wanted to have anything to do with the community (or even the mod for that matter) until these forums would formed (since I can now arbitrarily rid myself of those that piss me off).

Now, that publicity has shifted over the other tech-mods giving me a bit of breathing room to act without having the unwashed hordes descend upon me like angry locusts. Heck, even this recent fiasco with Notch vs Yogscast probably helps in that regard as people are so busy flaming those two groups that something like this may go by relatively unnoticed.

And BTW: great post, especially considering the topic you signed-up to chime in on :)

P.S. Even though I've barred all discussion on it, since this thread seems to be a massive "airing of grievances", with regard to Notch vs. Yogscast: OMFG have I ever been laughing my ass off.

Notch's most recent "fair enough" is the cherry on the cake. He obviously still blames them and will only issue the most begrudging of apologies. Considering all the hassles the Yogscast have caused me by directing their rabid fan-base at this mod, the irony of having Notch's even bigger fan-base directed at them is absolutely fucking hysterical.

Let the good times roll :)

This intrigues me. Yogcast sounds to me like it wants to be the next 4chan with less intelligence?

lol

Anyways, if you do this, I think another "special" video explaining the "intentional" incompatibilities might be incredibly humorous :P

[Simone]

Well for me it comes down to this...
Im the type of user that mod the hell out of Minecraft, adding as much functionality as possible.
With BTW, BC, IC2, and RP2 i can do pritty much anything in the world.

So i guess, (for me atleast) it comes down to how much functionality you want to add to BTW.
If you can justify breaking from forge completely and making it incompatible with the other mods.
You have been hinting at mayor changes for a while now in the mod, (last three months?) are you committet to making BTW epic in its own way?

If so i imagine it would win the heart of most users really. There really is a mayor difference in quality when you look at how BTW is made and balanced, and how other mods play.
It shows that you know what you are doing.

- Simone

PS: My only real gripe is that id have to use vanilla redstone functions, wich is a real pain in the ass really!

[grimper12341]

If it were me I'd go to the other major forge developers and get a crystal clear view on what their opinions are. If they agree with you, then the simplest solution to this would be to cut eloraam out of forge and steer it back on course.

This has 2 major benefits:
1. You get more creative control in forge to add more nifty things to BTW and maintain compatibility.
2. You save the original concept of forge and stop it from failing altogether.

It might even give eloraam a wake up call when she sees a united front working against her, and prevent the need to get rid of her at all.

[CreeperCommando]

After an eventful morning of plumbers running around..... sadly they weren't Italians...

So on the topic of Eloraam, let me get this straight...


1. She + Spacetoad created Forge together so a free and universal API for MC modding could be a reality, but now she seems to/is performing dictatorship over the development of the forge? Spacetoad doesn't complain as he gets to be a 'subject with benefits' (benefits as in his hooks gets added)?

2.She believes that without regard to others design philosophies she can by 'fair use' take others work and 'improve it' so she gets something more to her taste?

3. FC and Eloraam has been in discussion over this many times and gotten to reasonable understandings a couple of times/everytime. but it still leads to broken agreements?
I'll assume due to evidence of above happenings she is likely the one to break all of them them.

4. Forge being open source project still gets controlled by one person as she doesn't let others changes to it go through?
Leading me to assume that there is a dictatorship on the API.

5. Flowerchild has had little say in the project due to point 4. Also I get the feeling that although Elooram and Spacetoad gives FC credit by words, he doesn't get more say in the project than a ''puppet advisor''

5. It doesn't seem to me that there is any sign of a dedicated modders discussion and communication standard for the Forge project. Leading it to have a fully broken infranet due to the inaccessibility of the two top chiefs Spacetoad and Eloraam (point 5 explains why I don't say three top chiefs).


All above are what I get from this discussion, so correct points if wrong please, I'm just a bystander in this debate as far as forge goes.
Although if points 1. and 2. holds true, Then the whole making of the Forge community feels like a doll-house made by Eloraam only to play around with others hard work :/

And this still stands for me

Honestly I only need my beloved BTW to make vMC to be the game I loved at first try

I'd also think as what grimper said, but this kinda depends on Spacetoad IMO....

[MoRmEnGiL]

In my humble opinion many mods suffer from clutter. They begin as something elegant, neat, contained and very simple in philosophy. RP for eg was great when it was just cabling, gates, and cover. You could use it along with any mod and it wouldn't clash. Now look at it. Buildcraft started simple too, but it is much less cluttered, and while the new features toad implements are not really fitting with vMC feel, they at least feel like expanding the mods original vision, instead of pulling a megacorp on us by trying to do everything. IC on the other hand kinda felt like clutter to me from the beginning.

If one gets overly ambitious with his mod, and can actually do what he sets out to do, well great for him, BUT, abusing a group effort project for his own needs, and alienating instead of working with the rest of the people involved in the community well.. that's not so great.

I'm not really surprised to tell you the truth that it has come to this, for quite some time I've noticed FC's disenchantment with the direction forge is taking, and his underlying dislike on how elo does things was never a secret.

That still doesn't mean it is not sad, not for btw compatibility with other mods in itself, but because this would mean that the forge is dealt a blow I don't think it can recover from. I always though of FC as the "voice of reason" in the forge group. In my eyes this does indeed signal the end of the forge, not as an entity, but as something actually useful to the modding community instead of a vehicle for RP2.

EDIT: FINALLY got through, the forums gave me an error for many hours now :P

[Stormweaver]

So then, last night I was actually tired for the first time in a few weeks, so I went to sleep at a normal time. Had a few normal dreams. Things were fairly normal. I wake up, had a normal cup of tea and cigarette, went online. S&L had posted a fairly normal responce to the whole notch vs drama thing going on, so norma normal normal. BTW forums were down. Kat on the minecraft forums said it was because of an epic discussion topic. My last memory of these forums before sleeping was someone mentioning cosplay.

But now I've related the events of the first actual morning I've experienced in a long while, I may as well be on topic a little.

I'm about as die-hard as BTW fans get; A couple of times in recent days I've replied to posts on the MCF thread stating that BTW was originally a stand-alone, and it's better that way. The forge mods in general had their own niche's - Buildcraft allowed for generic automation, redpower allowed for 'simple' redstone wiring, IC allowed for various ways to manipulate and improve on your resources, and BTW gave early-game progression. Back when it started out and 'Look! all of this is now compatible!' was a force getting more people interested in the mods, this individual functionality worked.

The thing is now, most mods that actually do anything require the use of redstone. Most people don't understand/don't want to learn about redstone. So they install redpower. And then they find out redpower lets them do what they wanted in the first place anyway. If hypothetically I was the kind of person who assumes people to be manipulative and scheming until shown otherwise, I'd probably give her a pat on the head right now and say 'well played'.

I'm happy for BTW to split. This whole thing's putting me off the idea of actually trying RP2 now tbh. If you do, I'm happy to help teach people how to actually use vMC&BTW for their redstone needs.

[Tekei]

Good stuff

Well said, Storm! I couldn't have put it better myself.

[walker_boh_65]

Storm, that is the best way to put.

And FC, if you are ready for the shitstorm that will come if you drop forge, then you should know as well as I that there are plenty of users here that will have your back.

[DaWhiskers]

I run with quite a few mods along side BTW usually, but since 1.0.0 has been released, I have been prepping a new world while waiting for the various mods to update...

Taking this break into vMC has highlighted one major point of my usual playing. The only functions I am missing not having available are those from BTW. If dropping from the Forge is required for the continuation of BTW along its balanced development, then so long Forge, and thanks for all the fish!

Not that I am in any way addicted to the developments provided by BTW, but I have even stopped playing SMP as I prefer the additions provided by you FC to round out vMC into the game thats keeping me playing.

** Although there are references in this post that could be read as a hint at wanting BTW updated/made available to SMP, please do not see them that way, I am fully aware they will come when the time is right, and am more than happy to wait **

[Elensaar]

Apart from Eloraam copying other mods contents, there are basically two things this boils down to. One (and the most important) is FCs enjoyment in making BTW. The other is the state of the Forge API. As a developer myself, I've used countless APIs over the years. And every now and again you stumble upon one with great promise that, because of people twisting it to meet their needs specifically, ends up being unusable. Unfortunately it seems the the Forge is heading in that direction. And the best solution then, if "fixing" the problem becomes untenable, is to stop using it.

As I already said, I love the concept of Minecraft Forge. A common API that improves compatibility and collects common tasks that most mods have to deal with anyway. But if it's becoming this much of a clusterfuck then not using it is probably the best solution.

And as I've said - BTW is the only "must have" mod for me anyway. Any others are convenient fluff. And I've grown fond of this community as well, so I'm not going anywhere anyway. ;)

[Flesh_Engine]

I'd say drop the Forge entirely, only using the additional layer to facilitate your own workload for deciding to detach.

Look at it the other way around; if you don't have to consider compatibility then you can do whatever you want with vMC's mechanics to better suit the only mod you'll be using in the first place. Thereby creating a 'Minecraft+' so to speak.

Truth be told, the way i understand it is that one person is essentially controlling the Forge and using it for their own personal agenda while using it to clone useful stuff from the very mods that would be supported in the first place.

Frankly i'm amazed that you managed to remain silent/delay this for that long, knowing myself i'd have a hissy fit about the entire thing and drop the whole thing...

Really, cut the cord, you'll feel much better since you have essentially eliminated the compatibility issue alltogether by having no compatiblity.

IF i wanted to use another mod, just have a jar switcher batch instead of directly launching mc...

[Starshifterxen]

I currently play vMC with BTW and a few other assorted more minor non-intrussive mods. (e.g. BOD)

I have played BC, IC, EE and RP and whilst they are impressive in their own right my enjoyment whilst playing them was low. It all feels a bit pointless when power is so easy to obtain.


If BTW become incompatible with "everything". ;) I wouldn't be too bothered and would not stop me playing it.

At the end of the day however, the most important thing is your enjoyment. Plus if dropping out of forge, increases the chance of you continuing to work on the mod and feeling more able to pour your passion into it, then i'm all for it :D


p.s. I seem to be one of the only ones that likes most things about vMC redstone! It is one of the primary cause of challenge for me in automation. (In a good way!)

[STrRedWolf]

I think all the good points has been said, and most of it leads to one choice: Fork and fix the Forge, until Notch pushes out the API.

In the meanwhile, we need to push Notch and Jeb to get that API done.

If BTW drops Forge, then I may need to brush up on my Java; I use Buildcraft, TooManyItems, SpawnerUI and... limited portions of RedPower2. I don't need anything beyond redstone wire and the logic blocks (AND/XOR/NOT/Toggle Latch/Sequencer/long-timed repeater). Yes, having a 6502 emulator in the system is nice but that just kills things.

I can strip out many things to be pure BTW. The Quarry now can be simulated with the Mining charges. Pipes? Water.

What I would replace as a BTW plugin is:

• Automated craft table. Make those souls do actual work for a change in a Fabbery.
• Redpower2's redstone wire, jacketed wire, and logic blocks. (no more, no less). They can be done on the Anvil.

[Alrin]

I say do whats best for the continued dev of the mod.
Although I'm pretty convinced that by murphys law the second you announce you're dropping Forge, Necrowizzard will announce that Water Shader now supports Forge.

And I will weep. Many nights.

-_-

[Stormweaver]

Well Like I've said, I'll be perfectly happy to help people out with redstone; it might actually encourage me to brush up on the terminology tbh. I find the biggest hurdle people have with it is they decide they want to make something check to see what the circuits looks like, and end up not understanding anything because redstone schematics are horrible. One you know your basic logic gates and systems (nor latches and Xors for the most part, both of which are simple) you can plan systems progressively, and build in order of what needs doing. Works out a lot smaller that way, too.

[Gilberreke]

After getting my composure a bit over this, I have the following to say:

I'm surprised you are in any way surprised by this man :)

You actually posted a message a little while ago on these forums that summarized what was going on with the other tech-mods that I found quite reassuring. I'm not sure where the original post is, but I actually quoted it in an email, so I have the text here (I'll just quote the part that relates to Redpower):

RedPower is just becoming a clusterfuck. Eloraam is creating more of an expansion pack to vMC, but the tech tree progresses so fast you can barely call it one. On top of that, the new features are all copies of other mod's items. While I still appreciate her programming skills, it's just becoming a choice between either BTW or RP. RP just doesn't provide the superb gameplay balance BTW offers.

Frankly, it was reassuring for me to hear that people as into tech-mods as yourself were noticing this kind of thing happening and it wasn't just all going by unnoticed while I quietly fumed about it.

Yeah, if I were you, I'd probably take the same decision, but it hadn't occurred to me yet that it was an option. It took me a while to get my head around it. Actually, large part of me going "he's absolutely right that Forge needs to go", is the fact that Eloraam was talking yesterday about changing a line in signs that would mean you can't place them on half slabs anymore. I understood the reason, but that basically means breaking a LOT of worlds. The fact that she even considers it as a Forge modification was a bit of a reassurance that this API is not something BTW wants to be associated with.

You know how big of a Forge supporter I am/was, so I'm sad to see it go this way, but it's also for the better.

[Deepsniper]

Alright so I've spent about 40 minutes trying to read through this thread and wow is this interesting.

Personally I like the compatibility Forge gives us with the rest of the mods out there but that is a double edged sword. That compatibility has also let me give into using certain mods that are OP in a sense. BTW by itself is an awesome mod and to be honnest I have rarely made it to the top of the tech tree and even less so built some automation.

BTW is the mod that has helped me the most with figuring out redstone. especially with Batto's videos and the others I learned how to build counters and systems and I can actually think things through with redstone now.

If BTW does pull away from Forge I won't be dissapointed the BTW community is the most interactive one I have found so far. I enjoy the people here and what people are doing with the things that FC comes up with. I must ask though that if/when you do pull out of Forge that maybe the BTW API should come out. It would allow us modders/player who are loyal to your work to build upon BTW concepts and ideals. This would come out with multiple mini mods for BTW that would replace that gap from the compatibility loss. Using the cauldron, crucible, hopper and kiln in mini mods would be a huge boost.

[Shengji]

Really interested to read this post, it's great to see so many people that I know enjoy using mods supporting Flowerchild in whatever decision he makes.

Here's my point of view on the important points raised in order of least to most importance:

1) Eloraam: First and foremost, while yes, it is quite blatantly obvious that Eloraam has been coping elements from other mods, she is not coping the mod itself. Her mod has a particular direction and design to it which is different to the other mods she has lifted elements from. One of the big attractions that BTW has developed is it's balanced progressive play. This is because FC is one of the few people who understands game design. Unless she was outright copying the fundamental game design that makes BTW as unique and wonderful as it is, I don't think she deserves condemnation for it - there are very few idea's in this world that are completely original after all. I have not got the full facts on how she is running the forge so I shall not comment.

2) Compatability with other mods: As you may know, I am the biggest advocate for mods. I am also a competent enough programmer to be able to make them work properly together, so on a personal note, ditching the forge would not be a problem. For others it may disrupt their setup and cause them to have to make a rather unpleasant decision. This is naturally going to come out on forums and FC will have exposure to this frustration.

When Finite Water became impractical to run alongside BTW (Version 2 when the rain started washing away all BTW items!) I had such a decision to make. Both mods were core to my game - finite water meant that I had to worry about floods and drainage - a design and technical challenge I enjoyed. It also lead to some amazing moments when the worst happened and your mining hit the ocean and suddenly you were swimming for your life searching for air, watching all your hard work get washed away (I know it sounds crap to most people, but this type of emergent scenario is what I love the most - because then you are creating a story, suddenly instead of the same old same old, you were now trying to pump out all the flood water, patch up the hole and recover what you could - every time you go back into that mine, you remember the epic battle you had against the ocean and the story of the mine flood)

Anyway, back on track, having to ditch finite water was heart wrenching. How could I even contemplate minecraft without it. But I got over it and since have had even better games, more memorable experiences and lots more fun. If people find their mods incompatible, it's not the end of the world, however much it feels like it at the time. Eventually they will have set ups they enjoy as much if not more. And if that setup doesn't include BTW, well that will be sad, but a natural effect of this change. It will invariably cause BTW to lose players, but I don't think that's ever been FC's consideration. That's normally reserved for those who want to earn money from mods.

3) What I would like: Sure, give me the choice of better or worse compatibility, I'll choose better every time. That's just human nature. However, there are other issues to think about. I have no interest in the drama in the modding community. I abandoned my mods and changed my name because I was being used as a pawn in similar situations. What is important here is that you are finding it difficult to work on the mod and keep it in the forge. This changes everything. I want you to enjoy working on the mod. Don't think I'm being altruistic here either, I know that if you enjoy working on it, the quality will remain as high as it has always been - and so be better for me!

4) Flowerchild: FC, you are the genius behind this great mod. Everything this mod is has been down to decisions you have made. Whatever it is driving these decisions (and I won't pretend to know) has worked and you have earn't the trust of your fans. We may post our stupid idea's up in the suggestion forum but this mod didn't get huge because you listened to us and did what we wanted. Whatever you decide, I trust you. I think that goes for a lot of other people here too.

If you can no longer work with Eloraam, or working with the forge is holding back the mod, I don't see how there can be any argument in the world which would make you stick with it.


Anyway, that's just my 2p worth, really pleased to see some genuine support for FC about this!

[Thieme]

After reading the first page this morning and than this site crashing i finally caught up to it.

Most of the stuff has already been said now. I haven't played BTW in a while now but i wouldn't mind if forge compatibility would be cut. I would miss some redstone features like the first redpower version but that doesn't matter much. I agree that especially redpower2 and also buildcraft in some extent have become way to cluttered. I would rather see a lot of specialized and well fleshed out mods then a few of those monoliths with no gameplay progression. BTW isn't small either but it is just fleshed out and from all of the mods i have played it adds the most enjoyment of them all.

After reading trough this topic and seeing that a complete forge takeover wouldn't be easy as you already stated you don't want to maintain it because that wouldn't hold any fun for you and the other modders that use forge probably don't want to maintain it either.

Flower in my humble opinion you have put up with this way to long already. I and i think many others will thank you for considering this big step and waiting to see if it would get anywhere. From what you have wrote i believe this is a step wich you should have taken sooner for your own sake. Just cut the forge out and do your thing!
Although i think Deepsniper has a very good point. That it might be nice to have the BTW API. But whatever you do don't rush yourself i can imagine stepping away from forge is taking a huge amount of work and already reducing the fun you get from creating the mod. From what i have read over the past months you aren't really keen on coding the API as well. Just keep your head cool and care for yourself.

[foreman]

I was halfway through reading the topic last night when it became too much for the forums to handle or I'd have already voiced my opinion.

Better than Wolves inspired me to actually mod Minecraft for the first time. The enjoyment I've received from its smooth extension of vanilla game-play has been unchallenged by mods I've examined since. If dropping forge helps keep BTW what you envision it to be Flowerchild, so be it. My sympathies for whatever headaches may result of such a decision, but BTW shouldn't be shackled to something that adds stress if it doesn't need to be.

Good luck.