BTW: Design Philosophy

[Quesoman]

and many people (myself included) that consider griefing and stealing to be fundamental aspects of gameplay.

That is why whenever I see any of you online, I will kill first, ask second.

Anyhow, you have to set apart the mindless griefing with the sole intention of destroying hours of work, and the tactical attacks in a previously agreed environment (anarchy servers) which is, as you said, part of the game.

The first is a nuisance and should be restricted, the second is FUN!

I agree with you however, you really should not incorporate ways of preventing griefing in this mod, because that is not its purpose.

[FlowerChild]

Anyhow, you have to set apart the mindless griefing with the sole intention of destroying hours of work, and the tactical attacks in a previously agreed environment (anarchy servers) which is, as you said, part of the game.

The first is a nuisance and should be restricted, the second is FUN!

I agree with you however, you really should not incorporate ways of preventing griefing in this mod, because that is not its purpose.

By way of example, one of my favorite moments on an SMP server was when I surfaced out of the secret entrance of my underground lair to discover a group of noobs (only noobs build above ground in anarchy) had built an entire village over my base.

Obviously, this was a bad thing. Not only was there the possibility that they would accidentally tunnel into my lair given where they were situated, but it would also inevitably attract other players intent on looting/destroying the village to the location of my secret base, which might also result in it becoming a known location.

I spent the next couple of hours tearing down every single block of their village, landscaping the terrain to make it look perfectly natural, and even replanting vegetation to complete the effect. By the time I was done, not only was the village gone, but it looked like it had never even existed. Frankly, if they logged back on, I wouldn't be surprised if they thought they were the victims of a server reset.

I was just as proud of what I had accomplished there as if I had built an elaborate structure, and it was a unique gameplay experience I hadn't had in Minecraft before. IMO, just ruling out griefing and stealing entirely eliminates the very possibility of players having that kind of experience.

P.S. Eventually, that incident lead to me having to completely abandon my base. The noobs rebuilt, and accidentally tunneled very close to my multi-story underground mob-trap. While the tunnel lead into a virtual maze of a branch-mine, with the useful parts of my base spread out and hidden behind walls here and there, my base was hopelessly compromised as word got around on the server that "something was there". I managed to escape with the bulk of my valuables (mostly diamond and TnT), but it was an extremely tense period to be sure.

[DaveYanakov]

The lava nerf is going to make me sad. My SMP base is defended by a maze with a couple dozen piston traps that pop up roadblocks ahead of and behind a trip plate while opening a lava sluice overhead, each one on a timer that resets it after fifteen secnds. If lava is going to be less lethal that means I'm going to have to go in and change each and every one of those blasted things if it's worthwile at all. If they survive long enough they can mine their way out of the traps.

Maybe once BTW is in SMP I can switch over to saw lined pits... The gearbox arrangements would take up a similar amount of space to run eight saws.

[Quesoman]

P.S. Eventually, that incident lead to me having to completely abandon my base. ... my base was hopelessly compromised as word got around on the server that "something was there". I managed to escape with the bulk of my valuables (mostly diamond and TnT), but it was an extremely tense period to be sure.

How machiavellian of you, to destroy everything they had, haha

Indeed, 'something' was there. A wild flowerchild lurking around. I wouldn't get too close.
It must be nerve-racking, but you probably ended up enslaving the whole server, so no worries.


Back to topic:

I believe the mod should pursue its own development and progression and not try to follow vM, because aside of the fact that we would have a very unhappy FlowerChild, I prefer to use a mod that is completely free and not bound to what vM might become.
As I see it, BTW has completely different objectives to vM, and will have further objectives down the line, it should be independent (aside from the obvious rebalancing needed occasionally) of the progression in vM.



That lava nerf will mean you might need to think of clever solutions, such as a combination of lava and arrows, or maybe a drowning trap, with sand and water. Good luck though.

[DaveYanakov]

Drowning traps are horrifically slow and dispensers can be spotted pretty easily. I need ways to chop people up right quick like to keep them from pushing past the traps. Saws are very good for this purpose, even better than a sticky piston low ceiling on a rapid pulser.

[grimper12341]

The lava nerf is going to make me sad. My SMP base is defended by a maze with a couple dozen piston traps that pop up roadblocks ahead of and behind a trip plate while opening a lava sluice overhead, each one on a timer that resets it after fifteen secnds. If lava is going to be less lethal that means I'm going to have to go in and change each and every one of those blasted things if it's worthwile at all. If they survive long enough they can mine their way out of the traps.

Maybe once BTW is in SMP I can switch over to saw lined pits... The gearbox arrangements would take up a similar amount of space to run eight saws.

But unless all the ground is made of obsidian, what's to stop people from just tunneling under? With the amount of trap threads I see in the redstone subforums and such, if I ever played on one of these servers there's no way I'd ever take a direct path to a base, I'd be tunneling under or in the walls (or better yet, build a bridge in the air), and you can't trap every single block.

[DaveYanakov]

Because the maze is the only way through the lava lakes I make by digging out a ten meter high space, pouring lava sources up above and then digging out the dirt layer holding them up?

[MagusUnion]

Sorry to momentarily revert back to the previous topic:

See, I don't agree with this. Yes, griefing and stealing may be rather idiotic on servers that don't allow it, but as I've mentioned many times before, my preferred way to play SMP is on Anarchy servers.

On those servers, griefing and stealing become active parts of the gameplay, and I find that coming up with creative ways of defending your base against other players, and destroying those of other players (or even just pranking them) is probably the most creative and intellectually stimulating aspect of playing in that kind of environment.

So yeah, it's very unlikely that I would try and build any kind of protection against these activities into BTW as that would act counter to my preferred style of play.

Anyways, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, and remind people that there are MANY ways to play SMP Minecraft, and many people (myself included) that consider griefing and stealing to be fundamental aspects of gameplay.

So in other words, don't ever play on SMP with Flowerchild?

Grieving as a game mechanic? I fail to see the benefit of this.. Faction Warfare and PvP: Yeah, those I get, but going out of your way to make a person's life miserable just for 'fun' in an online setting as part of the game design? How is this any different than when bullshit Goons often do in other games with their shenanigans?

I can understand the need to defend yourself. I can also understand the thrill one can get for holding the line against an invader. But still, a sense of 'law' does need to exist about what is and isn't acceptable to do in terms of gameplay. Primitively taking whatever you can grab, bullying the others into submission just to grab 'teh bestest itemz' doesn't seem like an enjoyable experience for those on the other end of the incidents. It also turns servers into ghostlands where you don't build anything too tremendously huge, or anything worthwhile, because then you just make yourself and open target for anybody looking to take shit and run. (side note: Part of the reason why I got fed up with 'Industrial Rage' was due to the fact that killerbeez would let anyone in who would pay him, and after which ,they went straight to grieving just because it was funny to do on a 'secure system'. Thus we had guys run about +2000 coords. just to insure that they wouldn't get stolen again, and this in turn felt like chatroom style SSP over time...)

So no, I don't think grieving needs to be apart of gameplay. If I build an aqueduct system for a server city for everyone to use, and someone smashes the vital components needed to have it working, how is it acceptable for them to disrespect my hardwork that I generously spent for an online community? Why should the ones that steal be acceptably allowed to steal, and the ones who share be treated like trash and belittled with the line 'it's part of the game, deal with it'? Why should anyone bother investing in the effort of getting on an SMP if they know there are others online waiting to take from them their time/efforts?

Its this kind of respect issue that arises with grieving in online play. Being made fun of and stolen from is not pleasant in the real world. Idk why anyone would want to design an environment where it feels good to do so there...

[FlowerChild]

Its this kind of respect issue that arises with grieving in online play. Being made fun of and stolen from is not pleasant in the real world. Idk why anyone would want to design an environment where it feels good to do so there...

It's a different style of gameplay man, much the way survival and creative are different. I wouldn't want every server to be this way, it's just my preferred style of play, and I certainly wouldn't want every server out there to be strictly creative with no-griefing policies in place. From the anarchy servers I've played on, I also know that I am far from alone in feeling that way.

I don't get a thrill out of building elaborate structures in general. I get a thrill out of outwitting other players. That's my whole reason for playing SMP instead of SSP. If I want to build and not have anyone fuck with what I've created, I do so in the controlled environment of my SSP world.

So no, I don't agree with you one bit. I think there's plenty of room in Minecraft for both styles of play and both server types.

I'm really not sure why my preferring one style of play provokes you towards the above kind of confrontational post. I would also like to say that I am totally capable of playing within the rules of whatever server I happen to be on. In no way am I talking about going on a server where it is not allowed and griefing people's work (which I take no pleasure out of). On the contrary, I'm talking about my personal preference of playing on servers where no such rules are in place and I can make up my own mind about what I want to do to someone's stuff based on context.

[MagusUnion]

I'm really not sure why my preferring one style of play provokes you towards the above kind of confrontational post. I would also like to say that I am totally capable of playing within the rules of whatever server I happen to be on. In no way am I talking about going on a server where it is not allowed and griefing people's work (which I take no pleasure out of). On the contrary, I'm talking about my personal preference of playing on servers where no such rules are in place and I can make up my own mind about what I want to do to someone's stuff based on context.

Because posts, like any other form of expression, leave behind clues to what kind of personality a person has... and while I don't want to accuse you of being any type of individual, it is a bit unnerving seeing some of the posts as they are...

I get that there's 'enough room' for two different playstyles like this in online settings. I still have a hard time thinking that your playstyle is 'acceptable' in terms of online play. (Probably due to years of public school bullying... lol..) It is a bit scary thinking that not only would random people who play online would steal from me, but also the mod developer's themselves when it comes to playing with said mods. Why? You can create your own worlds already. Why seek dominance over individuals? Is it because they are so unwieldable? so unpredictable in their actions that submitting them is a form of accomplishing the impossible?

I respect that you have the right to play however you wish. I just find it hard understanding the reasons why you chose this style to begin with...

[FlowerChild]

Because posts, like any other form of expression, leave behind clues to what kind of personality a person has... and while I don't want to accuse you of being any type of individual, it is a bit unnerving seeing some of the posts as they are...

Believe me, the feeling is entirely mutual.

I get that there's 'enough room' for two different playstyles like this in online settings. I still have a hard time thinking that your playstyle is 'acceptable' in terms of online play. (Probably due to years of public school bullying... lol..) It is a bit scary thinking that not only would random people who play online would steal from me, but also the mod developer's themselves when it comes to playing with said mods. Why? You can create your own worlds already. Why seek dominance over individuals? Is it because they are so unwieldable? so unpredictable in their actions that submitting them is a form of accomplishing the impossible?

I respect that you have the right to play however you wish. I just find it hard understanding the reasons why you chose this style to begin with...

For the same reasons I choose to play online RTS game, FPS games, and just about any other game type you can think of? Because I enjoy competitive gameplay. I don't particularly get why you'd want to indefinitely stack blocks in a multi-player environment without threat of anything happening to them either, but I can understand that as simply being a matter of taste.

My argument isn't one of just enjoying being dominant, it's one of enjoying playing in an environment of ever present risk. It's about living in constant fear of attack and having to deal with that accordingly. What would make you think that I always come out on top in these situations?

Again, anyone who plays on an anarchy server has an inherent understanding that there is no safety in place other than against people cheating through hacks and such. There's a mutual agreement in place that we will fuck each other up.

It's funny that you have such an aversion to bullying, when unthinking aggression seems to be such a huge part of your personality man. This isn't the first time when I (or others) have recognized this trait in you. Do yourself a favor, and take it down a notch. Read over your two previous posts man. They're pretty damn insulting and aggressive, again, for no discernable reason.

[MagusUnion]

I use my aggression to defend myself and my points. I can I see how you can find such posting as 'offensive'. I think it's mostly because I'm hitting nerves within a person's feelings and ideas. I get that people don't want to think about said ideas or feelings, but at the same token...

I don't think people realize that such feelings/ideas influence their behavior in settings just like this. Concealing them merely causes argument, confusion, and misinterpretation. I don't think it's helpful, for anyone, to 'beat around the bush' about things. There's no need for it. We're adults, and we can communicate as such. If it's fear of stereotypes or judgments, then only realize that this is an anonymous setting. All you see is a 'MagusUnion'. You don't know where I live, what I've been thru, or even what age I might be. but then again, when it comes to ideas or expressions, why need these facts? Ideas can speak for themselves. Empires and gods are build from ideas, and personally I see that they stand stronger than insecurities or misnomer 'properness'. So why hide ideas? why fear what people think in regards to sharing ideas? Sure, a person can go crazy with an idea, but the idea itself is harmless...

I don't see why people have to be so bent out of shape over the 'ideas' people express. Yeah,the feelings they may encounter after seeing such ideas may invoke disapproval, but how am I supposed to anticipate EVERY emotion a person sees after seeing something I write? And even so, what kinds of information will I forsake in the name of 'keeping happy feeling'?

[BinoAl]

But that's, like... Your opinion, man. :p Obviously, you guys have differing tastes in gameplay. I, for one, don't get the hype behind call of duty. However, a lot of people like it. That's how most things work out, there's no real "making your point" in debates on opinion.

[Miss_Kat]

Magus, you just spent three paragraphs saying absolutely nothing.

[BinoAl]

Magus, you just spent three paragraphs saying absolutely nothing.

Where is that damn +1 button?!?

[jorgebonafe]

I use my aggression to defend myself and my points. I can I see how you can find such posting as 'offensive'. I think it's mostly because I'm hitting nerves within a person's feelings and ideas. I get that people don't want to think about said ideas or feelings, but at the same token...

I don't think people realize that such feelings/ideas influence their behavior in settings just like this. Concealing them merely causes argument, confusion, and misinterpretation. I don't think it's helpful, for anyone, to 'beat around the bush' about things. There's no need for it. We're adults, and we can communicate as such. If it's fear of stereotypes or judgments, then only realize that this is an anonymous setting. All you see is a 'MagusUnion'. You don't know where I live, what I've been thru, or even what age I might be. but then again, when it comes to ideas or expressions, why need these facts? Ideas can speak for themselves. Empires and gods are build from ideas, and personally I see that they stand stronger than insecurities or misnomer 'properness'. So why hide ideas? why fear what people think in regards to sharing ideas? Sure, a person can go crazy with an idea, but the idea itself is harmless...

I don't see why people have to be so bent out of shape over the 'ideas' people express. Yeah,the feelings they may encounter after seeing such ideas may invoke disapproval, but how am I supposed to anticipate EVERY emotion a person sees after seeing something I write? And even so, what kinds of information will I forsake in the name of 'keeping happy feeling'?

Always wanted to use this XD

[Stormweaver]

yay, drama.

Personally, I love compatative gameplay; spent about 2 years on one game of a persistant MMORTS, and it was all about fighting as hard as you could else you lose everything you've acheived. On the other hand, as competative gameplay goes, I don't see minecraft as the ideal platform for it. There are games that embrace competition of the less-than-friendly kind, then there's...a sandbox building game that happens to have a combat system. But since I mainly play SSP anyways (love my BTWs too much) it's not a big deal for me.

@magus: what's with the random 'thru' in the middle of your post? it detracts from whatever point you're making too much imo.

[FlowerChild]

I don't see why people have to be so bent out of shape over the 'ideas' people express. Yeah,the feelings they may encounter after seeing such ideas may invoke disapproval, but how am I supposed to anticipate EVERY emotion a person sees after seeing something I write? And even so, what kinds of information will I forsake in the name of 'keeping happy feeling'?

I don't get bent out of shape about ideas. I get bent out of shape when people express them in a hostile or aggressive form.

I make this mod for fun. If every time I interact with someone, it winds up feeling like a personal attack (which is what your posts on this subject were), then I am not having fun. Quite the contrary, I get pissed off and my enjoyment of the whole process plummets.

If you don't understand that, it's fine by me. I'm just letting you know I'm not going to be tolerating much more of it from you. Rule #3 on these forums is in place for a reason.

[Shengji]

Magus, I don't seem to understand the problem. I have had a tremendous weekend of fun playing battlefield. I would never, ever point a gun at someone in real life, nor am I aggressive, domineering or whatever else. It's a game and should be treated as such.

Now in Minecraft, also a game, there are SMP servers which have set rules and mods to help enforce those rules. Some servers allow "griefing" and in fact encourage it, others forbid it and ban those who try.

There is quite literally a server for everyone out there, just make sure you read the rules before joining. I enjoy minecraft in the same way you do - I dislike anarchy servers and I really enjoy constructive, community ones, but I wouldn't dream of wishing the end of anarchy servers or indeed that the people who enjoy them would change and like only what I like.

I'm sorry you got bullied at school, so did I, but that doesn't excuse the kind of passive aggressive behaviour you've shown here. It's one thing to communicate your points of view and open, constructive conversation is very healthy, however, you said yourself - you defend your opinion aggressively. This is not adult behaviour and at risk of overstepping a boundary, if I were to examine the clues to your personality in what you've posted, I would conclude that you hold an opinion but you don't necessarily feel confident enough in you opinion to rationally explain it to someone who disagrees with you. Your lack of confidence emerges in this kind of passive aggressive leading almost to open aggression.

No one here is trying to change your opinion, we've listened to it and understood it. It just feels like you are trying to change other peoples, and tell them that they are wrong to enjoy what they enjoy. Just relax a little and even if you don't hold a similar opinion to others, try and imagine you have to say what your typing to someone face to face, or imagine how it feels to have that said to you.

You're a part of this community and you are wanted here, but we would all like it to be a constructive place, a place where we can express ourselves and understand how others feel too. If you are having difficulty understanding how FC and others who enjoy playing on these servers can enjoy it, listen to them! Ask questions which open the topic further so that they write more and maybe you get a better understanding!

Hells, I'm going to stop typing now, please take no offence at what I've written, I just want to try to help :)

[MagusUnion]

Magus, I don't seem to understand the problem. I have had a tremendous weekend of fun playing battlefield. I would never, ever point a gun at someone in real life, nor am I aggressive, domineering or whatever else. It's a game and should be treated as such.

Now in Minecraft, also a game, there are SMP servers which have set rules and mods to help enforce those rules. Some servers allow "griefing" and in fact encourage it, others forbid it and ban those who try.

There is quite literally a server for everyone out there, just make sure you read the rules before joining. I enjoy minecraft in the same way you do - I dislike anarchy servers and I really enjoy constructive, community ones, but I wouldn't dream of wishing the end of anarchy servers or indeed that the people who enjoy them would change and like only what I like.

I'm sorry you got bullied at school, so did I, but that doesn't excuse the kind of passive aggressive behaviour you've shown here. It's one thing to communicate your points of view and open, constructive conversation is very healthy, however, you said yourself - you defend your opinion aggressively. This is not adult behaviour and at risk of overstepping a boundary, if I were to examine the clues to your personality in what you've posted, I would conclude that you hold an opinion but you don't necessarily feel confident enough in you opinion to rationally explain it to someone who disagrees with you. Your lack of confidence emerges in this kind of passive aggressive leading almost to open aggression.

No one here is trying to change your opinion, we've listened to it and understood it. It just feels like you are trying to change other peoples, and tell them that they are wrong to enjoy what they enjoy. Just relax a little and even if you don't hold a similar opinion to others, try and imagine you have to say what your typing to someone face to face, or imagine how it feels to have that said to you.

You're a part of this community and you are wanted here, but we would all like it to be a constructive place, a place where we can express ourselves and understand how others feel too. If you are having difficulty understanding how FC and others who enjoy playing on these servers can enjoy it, listen to them! Ask questions which open the topic further so that they write more and maybe you get a better understanding!

Hells, I'm going to stop typing now, please take no offence at what I've written, I just want to try to help :)

'

I think you're the most insightful poster so far... And dead on about alot of things..

Yeah, I lack confidence.. and use my rage instead of 'self confidence' to defend said points. Although I guess this is the source of why I'm perceived as 'strong' or 'opinionated' as I am, when in actuality I just want to get my idea out there and seen.. :-/

Guess the real point I'm trying to make is I'm not trying to come off as strong as I do. It's hard for me to personally see how I'm affecting others (even in real like).. and it makes me seem more of an ass than I want to be, so I apologize T_T...

Ty for being as insightful as you are Shengji. I'm glad you could see these things, cuz I certainly didn't.. (lol)


On-topic: I don't want apart of the SMP BTW server then, cuz I don't want to be grieved... lol

[FlowerChild]

Guess the real point I'm trying to make is I'm not trying to come off as strong as I do. It's hard for me to personally see how I'm affecting others (even in real like).. and it makes me seem more of an ass than I want to be, so I apologize T_T...

That's totally cool man. I generally have more respect for people that fuck up and apologize then for those that never fuck up at all :)

On-topic: I don't want apart of the SMP BTW server then, cuz I don't want to be grieved... lol

I sincerely doubt there will be only one, and doubt even more they'd all be anarchy. At most, it probably means we just won't be playing on the same server :)

[Brethern]

Grieving as a game mechanic? I fail to see the benefit of this.. Faction Warfare and PvP: Yeah, those I get, but going out of your way to make a person's life miserable just for 'fun' in an online setting as part of the game design? How is this any different than when bullshit Goons often do in other games with their shenanigans?

If someone is serious about building they are going to go to a dedicated building server. Or find one that's survival/building if they want a challenge. For example. MinecraftUK is dedicated building they build exquisite structures and everyone works together there are enough measures in place that grieving isn't a concern.

I used to play on a survival building server it had PVP and everything on and there were a few rules but we didn't kill each other because it wasn't necessary. Once I saw a low health player who didn't know I was behind him and I killed him with a wooden pick. We were all on TS so we had a good laugh and moved on. Grieving wasn't a concern .

I can understand the need to defend yourself. I can also understand the thrill one can get for holding the line against an invader. But still, a sense of 'law' does need to exist about what is and isn't acceptable to do in terms of gameplay. Primitively taking whatever you can grab, bullying the others into submission just to grab 'teh bestest itemz' doesn't seem like an enjoyable experience for those on the other end of the incidents. It also turns servers into ghostlands where you don't build anything too tremendously huge, or anything worthwhile, because then you just make yourself and open target for anybody looking to take shit and run. (side note: Part of the reason why I got fed up with 'Industrial Rage' was due to the fact that killerbeez would let anyone in who would pay him, and after which ,they went straight to grieving just because it was funny to do on a 'secure system'. Thus we had guys run about +2000 coords. just to insure that they wouldn't get stolen again, and this in turn felt like chatroom style SSP over time...)

I hate to break it to you but online games including MMO's there's a law, you want it you take it, you go there you earn your pay. If I want your shiny sword I'm going to kill you for it. Report me all you want I see no rules saying that I can't kill other characters in WOW. In fact it says in the TOS that I can. If you're dumb enough to be in a dangerous area you pay for it.

If killerbeez isn't moderating his server that's not our problem report and move on. Show good conduct and become a mod and then you can solve the problem.

So no, I don't think grieving needs to be apart of gameplay. If I build an aqueduct system for a server city for everyone to use, and someone smashes the vital components needed to have it working, how is it acceptable for them to disrespect my hardwork that I generously spent for an online community? Why should the ones that steal be acceptably allowed to steal, and the ones who share be treated like trash and belittled with the line 'it's part of the game, deal with it'? Why should anyone bother investing in the effort of getting on an SMP if they know there are others online waiting to take from them their time/efforts?

Its this kind of respect issue that arises with grieving in online play. Being made fun of and stolen from is not pleasant in the real world. Idk why anyone would want to design an environment where it feels good to do so there...

Sticks and stones mate. If it gets blow up in minecraft rebuild it. I hate to tell you this but in the real world that's exactly what maintenance workers do for a living maintaining things. Granted there's no creepers but you'd be surprised what rats can do.

Frankly I can't see how a bunch of ones and zeros matter as it is. If I want to be left alone I play SSP fact is most of the time I don't play online because I like being able to do what I want.

Guess the real point I'm trying to make is I'm not trying to come off as strong as I do. It's hard for me to personally see how I'm affecting others (even in real like).. and it makes me seem more of an ass than I want to be, so I apologize T_T...

That's totally cool man. I generally have more respect for people that fuck up and apologize then for those that never fuck up at all :)

On-topic: I don't want apart of the SMP BTW server then, cuz I don't want to be grieved... lol

I sincerely doubt there will be only one, and doubt even more they'd all be anarchy. At most, it probably means we just won't be playing on the same server :)

If there's going to be a BTW server can we at least have some sort of rule about not grieving within a cities walls? I don't mind anarchy I just hate spawn campers.

[DocLazy]

I like both styles of play. I like creative types of gameplay without player conflict, because I get a lot of satisfaction from completing a project and it's a lot of fun working with, and seeing what other people create. I like the anarchy style play as well, for the danger and problem solving aspect of getting through someone's defenses. Personally I like the pirate play style. Where you use all the tricks at your disposal, instead of a brute force approach, which doesn't work against a much larger opponent.

[FlowerChild]

If there's going to be a BTW server can we at least have some sort of rule about not grieving within a cities walls? I don't mind anarchy I just hate spawn campers.

Oddly, I haven't run into problems with spawn campers on anarchy servers. Generally I find that if someone spawn camps, they usually wind up dead very quickly as their position is given away in the chat channel, and everyone of course knows where the spawn point is.

There's not much point in killing someone freshly spawned, as they don't have anything on them, but killing someone who is camping the spawn is usually more profitable :)

Seriously, other than cheaters, I find anarchy can be remarkably self-regulating.

Anyways guys, seriously, I think we're dragging the thread way off-topic here (myself included). If anyone wants to discuss the pros and cons of various styles of SMP further, I suggest you start up another thread.

[Folrig]

So, back to BTW and SMP:

It seems one of the most significant obstacles for BTW in an SMP setting will be redstone timers. Or timers in general. I think I have a potential solution:

Redstone (in general) and Turntables only work when a player is within an "X" chunk radius of said device. Where "X" is either a variable amount set by server admins, or some set amount that would allow for "normal" play by the builder.

This would ensure that timers and DB will only work when someone is nearby. This actually wouldn't be a whole lot different from someone building a wheat farm in SSP then signing off. Whereas when they are logged on and building and farting around in the 3 or 4 chunks next to their farm it will collect and be active.

This wouldn't be an effective solution for hundreds of players on a server, but it would work for a small and maybe even medium sized server.

Just and idea.

Questions, comments, smart remarks?