BTW: Design Philosophy

[diegokilla]

Wont time simply take care of hardware limitations?

Are you suggesting that upgrades in computer hardware norms will eliminate the issue? I would imagine by that time nobody would really play anymore, but I really hope that ppl still do.

As it stand now, on my server which runs on ramdisk, 4G of ram allocated, core i7 930 if more than 2 or 3 redstone clocks are functioning, it begins to laf heavily. Now my server is not the most beast thing out there... but it is nothing to shake a stick at. Imagine everyone that plays on a server (We'll say 20 ppl to be extremely generous) has 1 clock per contraption. I envision the average BTW player as having at least 3-4 constantly running contraptions (even if the are not on clocks, pulsers,etc. they will still be activated pretty regularly) So 2-3 contraptions ie at least 1 block changing every few seconds I would guesstimate... well anyways im losing my train of thought now, and kinda forgot where i was going with this >.<

In short: BTW multiplayer would be FUCKIN SWEET, but i dont see it happening very smoothly with more than a few ppl per server. Then again... if anyone can pull it off, it would be FC :D

[Conscript Gary]

You have to consider the less cooperative aspects as well. All it takes is a few seconds of punching in an unattended hemp farm and windmill to bypass all the prerequisites of the early age. Now players are a clever bunch and will take precautions against such theft, but such artificial progression should be kept in mind.

[Stormweaver]

Just a bit of food for though; the upcoming updates with populated villages have 'areas of influence'. I remember waaay back that someone at moyang tweeted that they might make it so the player cannot build/break things within this area at the beginning of the game. If we were to expand that concept to multiplayer, and have it so a player has outlined 'territory' which is more or less immune to other players under most situations, that would solve most technology theft.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for most servers tbh. I am looking forward to seeing how 1.9 makes use of the territory boundary thing.

[diegokilla]

Just a bit of food for though; the upcoming updates with populated villages have 'areas of influence'. I remember waaay back that someone at moyang tweeted that they might make it so the player cannot build/break things within this area at the beginning of the game. If we were to expand that concept to multiplayer, and have it so a player has outlined 'territory' which is more or less immune to other players under most situations, that would solve most technology theft.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for most servers tbh. I am looking forward to seeing how 1.9 makes use of the territory boundary thing.

This is implemented, and has been for a while. It's the "spawn protection" in the server properties file. It makes it so that only OP's can alter a designated radius around the spawn point.

[Stormweaver]

Just a bit of food for though; the upcoming updates with populated villages have 'areas of influence'. I remember waaay back that someone at moyang tweeted that they might make it so the player cannot build/break things within this area at the beginning of the game. If we were to expand that concept to multiplayer, and have it so a player has outlined 'territory' which is more or less immune to other players under most situations, that would solve most technology theft.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for most servers tbh. I am looking forward to seeing how 1.9 makes use of the territory boundary thing.

This is implemented, and has been for a while. It's the "spawn protection" in the server properties file. It makes it so that only OP's can alter a designated radius around the spawn point.

Yeah, basically that but with different implementation and shiny lines on the ground.

[Folrig]

Are you suggesting that upgrades in computer hardware norms will eliminate the issue? I would imagine by that time nobody would really play anymore, but I really hope that ppl still do.

As it stand now, on my server which runs on ramdisk, 4G of ram allocated, core i7 930 if more than 2 or 3 redstone clocks are functioning, it begins to laf heavily. Now my server is not the most beast thing out there... but it is nothing to shake a stick at. Imagine everyone that plays on a server (We'll say 20 ppl to be extremely generous) has 1 clock per contraption. I envision the average BTW player as having at least 3-4 constantly running contraptions (even if the are not on clocks, pulsers,etc. they will still be activated pretty regularly) So 2-3 contraptions ie at least 1 block changing every few seconds I would guesstimate... well anyways im losing my train of thought now, and kinda forgot where i was going with this >.<

In short: BTW multiplayer would be FUCKIN SWEET, but i dont see it happening very smoothly with more than a few ppl per server. Then again... if anyone can pull it off, it would be FC :D

See, that's why I asked. I had no idea. I don't know that my computer could handle being a server, and I can barely run MC with BTW.

You have to consider the less cooperative aspects as well. All it takes is a few seconds of punching in an unattended hemp farm and windmill to bypass all the prerequisites of the early age. Now players are a clever bunch and will take precautions against such theft, but such artificial progression should be kept in mind.

Just a bit of food for though; the upcoming updates with populated villages have 'areas of influence'. I remember waaay back that someone at moyang tweeted that they might make it so the player cannot build/break things within this area at the beginning of the game. If we were to expand that concept to multiplayer, and have it so a player has outlined 'territory' which is more or less immune to other players under most situations, that would solve most technology theft.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for most servers tbh. I am looking forward to seeing how 1.9 makes use of the territory boundary thing.

This is implemented, and has been for a while. It's the "spawn protection" in the server properties file. It makes it so that only OP's can alter a designated radius around the spawn point.

I have actually seen this implemented in a server. The players could "purchase" (with in game currency) a plot of land on which only that player could build, and eventually establish a town or something. I'm sure it was a series of server mods, but I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw this.

It was very clever though.

[Fracture]

Just a bit of food for though; the upcoming updates with populated villages have 'areas of influence'. I remember waaay back that someone at moyang tweeted that they might make it so the player cannot build/break things within this area at the beginning of the game. If we were to expand that concept to multiplayer, and have it so a player has outlined 'territory' which is more or less immune to other players under most situations, that would solve most technology theft.

It wouldn't be a bad idea for most servers tbh. I am looking forward to seeing how 1.9 makes use of the territory boundary thing.

This is implemented, and has been for a while. It's the "spawn protection" in the server properties file. It makes it so that only OP's can alter a designated radius around the spawn point.

Yeah, basically that but with different implementation and shiny lines on the ground.

Some servers have this. Nations at War, for instance, allows the various Nations to buy 16x16 "plots". Only members designated by admins as part of the plot-owning Nation can build or destroy on that plot, except in special circumstances. In those circumstances, notably war with another Nation, blocks are temporarily breakable for offensive purposes, but the plot retains a memory of the blocks within it, and can be easily restored. High-value blocks are obviously excluded, so things don't get duped and stealing actually has rewards during a war, but building blocks are all restored.

In addition, I'm pretty sure you also can't open chests in a Nation that's not your own except during wars.

So there is a plugin that does roughly what you're talking about, though I'm fairly sure the one I'm talking about is private.

[Conscript Gary]

There are a number of mods/plugins that introduce claimable land, but they're just that- other mods. I know the forge is a move to greater compatibility, but Flower's always seemed to lean to balancing BTW with itself first.

[diegokilla]

That's another good point in the BTW multi-player discussion. If BTW is not bukkit or some other main SMP API compatible, then we will have to find ports or other mod devs to make these other SMP mods that are that are qutie essential and expected these days in our multiplayer endeavors.
FFS longest run-on everr >.<
(World edit, iConomy, Factions, are all good examples of plug-ins that many SMP players couldn't live with-out nowadays)

[Battosay]

Not necessarily. I hate iConomy and Factions server :o

[diegokilla]

Not necessarily. I hate iConomy and Factions server :o

True, many pple don't like these, but a server that has more than 5 users (or any amount that dont know each other IRL) will need some sort of land/grief protection. Every server needs some sort of security or ppl will end up being sorely dissappointed :(

I personally don't like most servers that use Iconomy and such, however, if you use a good physical shop plugin, it can work quite nicely.
Factions is my fav of the land protection plugins because it is self service :D anyone can protect configurable amounts of land etc. etc. :P

Anyways I'm gonna quit being a bukkit posterboy now :P

[Fracture]

Tbh every BTW-community server that's been up seems to have gone pretty much without a hitch using nothing but selective whitelist.

[Glox]

Theft prevention and griefing is something for the server owner to deal with, not something FC should have to worry about when making his mod. There are enough protection mods out there to make a server a nice place.
And besides i may be being naive here but i believe this community has very little of those idiots. BTW is a mod for the more 'intelligent' users - you have to use your brain to use this mod properly. Griefing and stealing is the opposite of that.

[diegokilla]

Tbh every BTW-community server that's been up seems to have gone pretty much without a hitch using nothing but selective whitelist.

Theft prevention and griefing is something for the server owner to deal with, not something FC should have to worry about when making his mod. There are enough protection mods out there to make a server a nice place.
And besides i may be being naive here but i believe this community has very little of those idiots. BTW is a mod for the more 'intelligent' users - you have to use your brain to use this mod properly. Griefing and stealing is the opposite of that.

These are good points, but all it takes is one wrong word or phrase to the wrong person and all out grief wars can be initiated. Take my word for it on this one, you need some sort of security. I've been hosting server's since beta and I am here to tell you from experience....

[maxsi]

if some API for bukkit like spout was used. there will be no need to worry about making a Theft and griefing inside BTW

[Folrig]

Wrap Up
Thanks for humoring my question folks.

Seems the general consensus is that BTW in it's current track will be successful in SMP. The problem given is griefing. This issue though is not specific to BTW, rather it is a concern for the server. Dealt with by having players who can behave and follow rules, or a means of enforcing said rules.

Conversation has moved from BTW SMP Design Philosophy to the best mods for a BTW SMP server. Personally, I would like to hear more, but this would probably be best in a new topic.

[diegokilla]

Wrap Up
Thanks for humoring my question folks.

Seems the general consensus is that BTW in it's current track will be successful in SMP. The problem given is griefing. This issue though is not specific to BTW, rather it is a concern for the server. Dealt with by having players who can behave and follow rules, or a means of enforcing said rules.

Conversation has moved from BTW SMP Design Philosophy to the best mods for a BTW SMP server. Personally, I would like to hear more, but this would probably be best in a new topic.

Agreed, sorry for gettin so far off of the main topic >.<

[Stormweaver]

I'd start a new topic, but I'm going to be offline till tommorow >.<

A bit of discussion into the nature of alchemy and how it'll find it's twisted ways into BTW could be interesting though, if no-one else has any ideas.

[grimper12341]

Unfortunately I'm too tired to disguise this as anything other than a shameless bump.

[Triskelli]

One thing I'd like to discuss is the widespread concept in video games that Alchemy = Apothecary.

[morvelaira]

Well, they've always been linked in history. Apothecary is what arose out of the persuit of Alchemy. It obviously wasn't successful - no one can turn lead into gold. The two became linked though, and in "fantasy" settings like video games, they can be considered the same thing because there's no limitation of reality. Alchemy can be used because it works in video games, and it's often equated with Apothecary because if it was possible in real life then it WOULD be the same thing.

[Triskelli]

Right, but potion making and healing is significantly different from the alteration of base metals into different forms. This is especially egregious for Minecraft, since we deal with gold, iron, and other base elements all the time.

Alchemy isn't for making the fantasy equivalent of Red-bull, is all I'm saying.

[Elensaar]

Then again real life alchemists did a lot more than just try to change base metals into gold. Modern chemistry came out of the parts of alchemy that actually work (Sir Isaac Newton himself was an alchemist as well as natural scientist, and he didn't see any real difference between the two afaik). Among the things alchemists were searching for was the Elixir of Life, supposed to extend human life beyond its natural span. For me, at least, the stretch from that to making a healing potion isn't that large, especially in a world where alchemy actually works.

Seeing the more mystical aspects of alchemy in a game though, that would be fun. And for Minecraft, making it possible to discover some (insanely complicated) recipe that lets you change one material into another would be a cool addition to the game.

I do agree that without the more mystical aspects of it, you boil alchemy down to just the "chemy" part ;) But the mystical parts of it would be difficult to simulate properly in a game like Minecraft...

[DaveYanakov]

There's a reason that apothecary/pharmacy shops in the UK are referred to as 'Chemists'. Yes there was the transmutation attempts but most alchemy was crude chemistry. The results of that chemistry were sometimes found to have various medicinal properties. Calling potion/tincture/whatever in games 'Alchemy' is accurate, not something to be nitpicked. The fact that some of the ingredients in the Minecraft world really do have magical and/or transmutational properties just makes the title more fitting.

[FlowerChild]

And besides i may be being naive here but i believe this community has very little of those idiots. BTW is a mod for the more 'intelligent' users - you have to use your brain to use this mod properly. Griefing and stealing is the opposite of that.

Sorry to momentarily revert back to the previous topic:

See, I don't agree with this. Yes, griefing and stealing may be rather idiotic on servers that don't allow it, but as I've mentioned many times before, my preferred way to play SMP is on Anarchy servers.

On those servers, griefing and stealing become active parts of the gameplay, and I find that coming up with creative ways of defending your base against other players, and destroying those of other players (or even just pranking them) is probably the most creative and intellectually stimulating aspect of playing in that kind of environment.

So yeah, it's very unlikely that I would try and build any kind of protection against these activities into BTW as that would act counter to my preferred style of play.

Anyways, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents, and remind people that there are MANY ways to play SMP Minecraft, and many people (myself included) that consider griefing and stealing to be fundamental aspects of gameplay.