BTW: Design Philosophy

[Adjudicator79]

Wow, I go off to actually play the game for a bit and come back to a fully developed debate going on. Awesome!

So, to throw my opinion in the mix. If we are talking about simply improving upon the existing vM framework to get the most out of a system that should be functioning better than it currently is, which is what BTW does to vM, then I think flight is waaay too far out there. It represents a dimension of movement (non-land based (jumping or ladders) vertical control) that just doesn't exist in current vM - unless you count falling as vertical movement and even that is not truly controllable.

Especially with FlowerChild's release of the turntable, I see the next, rather obvious, step in transportation as locomotive (in this case implying steam locomotion, not a strict physics definition of locomotion). It fits well with what BTW does already - improve upon existing concepts in the game to make the experience more enjoyable.

Some of you have already hit upon the reality that powered minecarts, which should logically represent a stronger source of movement, fail miserably when compared to "magically" powered rails - because that's what redstone is to Steve right now - some kind of magic dust that he can do cool things with. Steve simply doesn't have the tech base to understand redstone as any type of electricity or current and therefore it's a cheat for the world. That's fine, if you look at vM as a testing platform to get ready for Adventure Mode. But if you enjoy playing vM as a technological progression game, which I'd say is only possible with BTW, then redstone is an unsatisfactory answer.

Which leads me to my perceived design theory for transportation. Locomotives. This seems to be an actual first step into the Age of Steam (if that's where we are actually heading) and would make good use of existing tech in new ways. Coal is massively abundant, but relatively useless. By the end of the Age of Wood, Iron is actually very accessible as well, especially given the use of minecarts. And the waterwheel gave us an explicit interaction with water as a technological development tool. Combining those items to create a boiler seems like an obvious next step. I'm not sure how power would be transferred - if it would require a multiblock system, or if there would be an automatic transfer along a string of minecarts for a certain preset limit (like the 15 block limit for redstone). I could easily see a boiler powering the cart it is installed on and maybe 3-4 more carts. It'd require a water and coal cart to keep it going, and then would allow for storage in the last few carts. And this could easily be crossed over into a steam driven ship as well, making water transport actually useful for the first time.

In fact, I'd love to see one of the "rewards" for mastering the Age of Wood that we mentioned before (see FlowerChild's comments about the saw) to be the use of paddlewheels on a boat. We have waterwheel technology providing mechanical energy. It seems a fairly obvious step to scale that down, mount it on a boat, and have a new form of water transportation.

Anyway, I love the transportation discussion and I'll go update the OP with it right now! Keep it going, folks!

[BoredomAddict]

Having a stronger powered minecart would definitely help a lot, since boosters are way too resource consuming. I like the idea of having a paddle boat that could maybe tug along some storage boats or something, but how would it know where to go? Would it have a space for Steve to steer the ship?

[cheechako]

realism be damned

I think that's part of this debate, or should be.

The world of MC is so illogical. Stone floats in mid air, lava can hurt Steve enough to require him to eat a donut (instead of months of recovery in a burn ward), and raw pork is OK to eat even if it sits on the ground for months.

Yet BTW tries to bring some logic and reality into the game. Sometimes, this can help us (the players) figure things out with common sense. Sometimes, this can cause odd conflicts like bonemeal on wheat vs. hemp.

So, we can't just say, "that's unrealistic". We have to consider what benefit some aspect of reality has for the game or the player. At the same time, we shouldn't just take the cheap route (like bonemeal on wheat) just because of the magical reality Notch has created. Part of the BTW design aims to "fix" some of this so that the MC+BTW reality is different (and might make more sense) than the vM reality.

[PatrickSJ]

realism be damned

I think that's part of this debate, or should be.

The world of MC is so illogical. Stone floats in mid air, lava can hurt Steve enough to require him to eat a donut (instead of months of recovery in a burn ward), and raw pork is OK to eat even if it sits on the ground for months.

Yet BTW tries to bring some logic and reality into the game. Sometimes, this can help us (the players) figure things out with common sense. Sometimes, this can cause odd conflicts like bonemeal on wheat vs. hemp.

So, we can't just say, "that's unrealistic". We have to consider what benefit some aspect of reality has for the game or the player. At the same time, we shouldn't just take the cheap route (like bonemeal on wheat) just because of the magical reality Notch has created. Part of the BTW design aims to "fix" some of this so that the MC+BTW reality is different (and might make more sense) than the vM reality.

It is about art. Functional art. We make things that are nice to look at and that we can play with. Many of the items that we build are either a part of the that art or a means of getting the block/item needed for our art.

Of course, this can change with the adventure update.

[cheechako]

It is about art. Functional art. We make things that are nice to look at and that we can play with. Many of the items that we build are either a part of the that art or a means of getting the block/item needed for our art.

I don't think it is that simple. Where is the art in putting A+B on a workbench to get C, and then C+D on the bench to get E? All you need is TMI, and you can create your art by jumping straight to E.

Where is the art in dung+food = fouled food?

Yes, BTW sure can be pretty. But logic and pseudo-realism also come into play.

[FlowerChild]

Giving this thread a little bump as I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say about the 2.8 release and how it affects people's impressions of the direction the mod is going in ;)

[BoredomAddict]

I think the 2.8 update hints at a lot of very interesting stuff in the future. Personally, I can't wait to see what the haft is used for. :D

[Haniale]

Giving this thread a little bump as I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say about the 2.8 release and how it affects people's impressions of the direction the mod is going in ;)

So as a question, "What does the 2.8 update suggest for the progression timeline?"

Well, bellows are traditionally used for metal craft to my knowledge, and animal-fat products were just starting to become known at this sort of era too. The haft still confuses me, but I can see a number of uses for large wooden lengths - beams, axles, weapons. I hope one such use is to literally beat the shit out of wolves. Bellows could also be the teaser sound. I think Iron is our next stop, but I don't think Steam is going to be in there - seems like there's plenty of non-steam related funs to be explored. I'm thinking there's going to be better minecarts involved, and probably some kind of immobile, or at least very slow, block destruction - auto-miner, dredger, giant spinning blade that destroys all the trees. Maybe an armour crafting update, but I can't really see any changes that could be made that fit in the BTW scope.

[KriiEiter]

When I think of the word "haft" I think of either an axe or a sledgehammer. Going off the idea of a hammer being implemented along with bellows which produce a hotter flame, I'm thinking where we're headed towards is blacksmithing.

What we yet need is a forge. My thinking is that the oven isn't tough enough to withstand the heat needed for advanced metalworking. An anvil would also be needed to shape metals with the hammer.

Where we go from there is anyone's guess.

[Bjergi]

Hey guys just thought I'd put my two cents in over the new update, and the direction of the mod.

Just wanted to put some historical context into the addition of both tallow and the inclusion of the creation of hafts.
Tallow was used in the early development of steam piston engines, where the hot vapors and liquids washed away most lubricants very quickly. Tallow was found to be quite resistant to this washing, and so tallow was widely used to lubricate locomotive and steamship engines at least until the 1950's. Tallow is also used in the steel rolling industry to provide the required lubrication as the sheet steel is compressed through the steel rollers.

Now the haft takes a different turn of things, the definition of a haft being a handle or hilt, most commonly of a tool or sword. However also interesting to note the following "Hafting is a process by which an artifact, often bone, metal, or stone, is attached to a handle or strap. This makes the artifact more useful by allowing it to be fired (as in the case of an arrowhead), thrown (as a spear), or leveraged more effectively (as an axe or adze)." From Wikipedia the source of all knowledge.
However I must say that if anything that seems to be a step back in technology for our man Steve, unless I'm missing something crucial here.

But as always I'm sure Flower has great things in store for us. Personally I hope that rather than just replace the method of production of mechanical energy, the introduction of steam introduces whole new forms of power, and systems, because honestly it's only the interaction of these systems in Minecraft which keeps me coming back to it, not the "adventure" aspect. Anyway I have early classes in the morning and it's late.

[SterlingRed]

I still think steam is something too complex for btw's code and vM's code to handle.

Blacksmithing would be an appropriate direction to head in. FC has hinted that we'll have a new way to make stone panels other than the mill stone soon so as far as i can tell, we won't have a definitive 'stone age.' Logically the next step is being able to efficiently work with other resources in the game, ie. metals. Bellows hints at that quite well. I'm not entirely sure what FC intends the haft to be used for. Indeed its typically used for tools/weapons but as the weapons we have to combat mobs are already borderline overpowered, I don't see FC letting us create more powerful weapons. (perhaps more durable is possible though). Likely the haft is used to create a tool/object thats instrumental in the blacksmith age (thats what I'm calling it now).

[Gilberreke]

I still think steam is something too complex for btw's code and vM's code to handle.

I don't see how it would be more complex than redstone or mechanical power. I think steam technology is highly likely at this point with the addition of bellows, tallow and extended metallurgy (which the bellows and haft hint at, also being a logical progression)

[Battlecat]

Well the recent additions are certainly interesting. The bellows and the addition of Stoked Fire to the game certainly indicates an upcoming move in the direction of advanced metal processing of some sort. Glue has already demonstrated it's use as an alternate to slimeballs for sticky products, a highly valuable alternative. I'm not sure about the haft but I suspect it will be an important component in upcoming tools and machinery.

Actually, of all the additions, the stoked fire is actually the most significant in my mind. It creates a qualitative difference between normal fire and the stoked fire. Both are heat sources and yet they produce functionally different results when applied to the same tool (the cauldron). A small amount of heat cooks the food, a large amount of heat renders it into glue and tallow. Normal fire smelts metal in small quantities. Large amounts of heat could melt metal down into a molten form for casting or at least smelt it into a more refined form.

This fits in very impressively with what I am seeing as a cornerstone of this mod's design. I suspect many tools we see in the mod will have at least 2 intended uses and possibly more when we use our imaginations. The cauldron has two different uses now, the millstone has at least 3 that I can think of. By doing this, FlowerChild can conserve block ID's while still creating a rich, flexible mod that extends the game while still retaining a significant challenge.

Actually, with the recent additions, I think notch making animals persistent and farmable will be a highly beneficial change to the vanilla game for this mod. I've always felt it was a shame that the most useless animal in the game is the one that stays around.

[Marmalade_Smile]

Actually, something has been bugging me about the BTW tech level, and where it seems to be going.

As I have said before, BTW saved Minecraft for me, I think all of Flower's additions are extremely well thought out and coded, and overall I'm a huge fan of the mod. I wouldn't play without it.

However, part of the appeal for me was the low-impact of the additions. They seemed to gel so nicely with vanilla Minecraft, run alongside the current progression and not become hugely complicated and overpowered. The likes of Buildcraft and Industrialcraft seem to have an idea of a Minecraft which is far removed from Mojang's.

I trust that Flower's additions will be wonderfully creative, with interesting limitation and decent code, but I am concerned that BTW could become another Frankenstein's monster of additional parts, which rely far more on each other than the basic elements already established.

That said, I may have nothing to be concerned about. BTW has been a fantastic ride to date, and I hope that whatever the underlying design philosophy actually is, it's clear and self-consistent in Flower's head.

[Adjudicator79]

Great discussion on the new mod already guys. I'll chime in with a few points and then try to create a clear discussion questions for us to move forward on, rather than trying to tackle all the elements of then 2.8 update all at once.

Haniale: I agree with you on the bellows pointing towards an increase in metal crafting. I think this fits in with the traditional BTW approach of modifying existing vM elements slightly in a way that makes them profoundly more useful. Using a bellows even if only to increase the efficiency of smelting could have a huge impact on Steve's ability to make use of the resources around him. Imagine the impact of increased yield from smelting on iron, or the addition of steel to make longer lasting tools between iron and diamond. For one, it would prolong the time before the diamond reset when not considering the mechanical power additions BTW already adds. Additionally, it could open up whole new vistas of crafting if steel can be produced more efficiently than 1 iron ore = 1 iron ingot.

As for tallow, I think you are spot on. Whether it's steam or simply the Age of Iron, I see the rendered reagent as the first introduction of chemistry as well. FlowerChild has a great track record of introducing elements that have minor uses initially and then turn out to be huge as time goes on. He's clearly stated several times that scoured leather will be much more vital as time progresses. I can see tallow and glue, and the ideas they represent (turning primary resources into secondary resources) as the glimmerings of an Age of Chemicals. Imagine combining different flowers with different resources (bone, leather, leaves, etc) in a cauldron to come up with new reagents. I love the foreshadowing that these two simple additions create.

I'm not sure I see an automated mining machine in the works, though. I may be off on this, but somehow it just doesn't tingle my BTW senses the way tallow and glue do.

KriiEiter: I agree with you on the haft as an implement to modify tools, rather than a weapons mod. I see it as something that might be needed to add a bellows to a furnace for a multi-block solution to introducing an Age of Iron (haft being what the furnace needs to manipulate the bellows and stoke the fire hotter). And I definitely agree that eventually we should see the furnace as inefficient and needing replacing if we are going to enter a true Age of Iron. And in that case, the haft/bellows/forge idea makes even more sense!

Bjergi: Thanks for the history on tallow! I was aware of its use in shipping (steam ships used it very frequently, as it was semi-waterproof as well and could be used to seal off small leaks for pipes moving between waterproof bulkheads while also lubricating joints), but didn't realize it was also used on land-based steam machinery. And I'm from Pittsburgh, so I knew about its use in steel too! Great job!

And I agree on the desire to keep mechanical power as a viable power source. I see steam, if that is where we are headed, as a stand-alongside, rather than replacement, power.

SterlingRed: I freely admit to not knowing enough about coding to understand if vM can handle steam power as a source. But you and I definitely agree on the blacksmithing idea. In fact, I think I'd like an Age of Iron before an Age of Steam, even if steam is coming. It makes perfect sense to me from a technological progression perspective.

Battlecat: Again, on target with the bellows and stoked fire additions. And I think you are very on point with the importance of stoked fire. The ability to create higher temperatures was key to the advancement of a lot of technologies built around smelting and especially amalgamation. And it's a perfect example of FlowerChild's mastery of the multi-block system. Mechanical power + cauldron + bellows gets you tangible results from the stoked fire. None of them individually get you anything special. Adding reagents like glue and tallow and new items like the wood blade (can anyone say stirring?) and haft make me automatically think of new multi-block systems to employ. And, in my mind at least, multi-block systems are so much more rewarding than simply slapping a CT and furnace down and expecting everything to be built from those two items.

Mamalade_Smile: This is actually a valid point and the one I want to use as our next discussion question. The turntable and bellows, when combined with existing vM elements and purely BTW elements, do make some significant changes. It's worth talking about what that represents from a Design Philosophy perspective, since that is what this thread was created to do!

So here's the question:

Should BTW pursue a development style that is geared towards only modifying vM in such a way as to remain predominantly accessible by a vanilla player stepping into the mod fresh? Or should BTW be willing to break wholly away from the development path of Mojang (though not necessarily the feel and style of vM) and pursue its own development path that might result in BTW players basically playing a separate game than vM players.

Remember that all of this is asked while acknowledging that Adventure Mode is a completely different game from current vM. We aren't talking here about whether or not BTW should move to quest driven gameplay. I don't even really see that as part of the question. BTW is a mod built around getting the most out of the tool that is vM, not about creating a new adventure gameplay experience. So lets focus on the design philosophy aspects of this question rather than the gameplay mechanics.

[Gilberreke]

I have two things to say about that.

1) BTW should always stick close to vanilla
2) The exception to the rule is using BTW items as a way to restrict ages and get a sense of technological advancement

[Fracture]

So here's the question:

Should BTW pursue a development style that is geared towards only modifying vM in such a way as to remain predominantly accessible by a vanilla player stepping into the mod fresh? Or should BTW be willing to break wholly away from the development path of Mojang (though not necessarily the feel and style of vM) and pursue its own development path that might result in BTW players basically playing a separate game than vM players.

Personally, I think it should be the latter. They very basics of BTW tech can't be accessed immediately even if a vM player starts from diamonds, though they do lend an example. If you can't step from diamonds to automated hopper systems with ease, why should you be able to step from diamonds to steam without hardship? The main appeal BTW has is organic progression. No matter where a vM player is, even when they have significant amounts of resources, they often have to start small with BTW. They have a clear advantage, but they don't start climbing the tech tree above others.

Especially considering the feel of our "Ages", most things in BTW should be led to by previous technologies and products. Everyone has to hit the same basic stages to get to the top. So far, it's basically large-scale hemp production, and dung. In the future? Who knows. But everyone should still have to hit hemp and dung to get there.

[morvelaira]

So here's the question:

Should BTW pursue a development style that is geared towards only modifying vM in such a way as to remain predominantly accessible by a vanilla player stepping into the mod fresh? Or should BTW be willing to break wholly away from the development path of Mojang (though not necessarily the feel and style of vM) and pursue its own development path that might result in BTW players basically playing a separate game than vM players.

Remember that all of this is asked while acknowledging that Adventure Mode is a completely different game from current vM. We aren't talking here about whether or not BTW should move to quest driven gameplay. I don't even really see that as part of the question. BTW is a mod built around getting the most out of the tool that is vM, not about creating a new adventure gameplay experience. So lets focus on the design philosophy aspects of this question rather than the gameplay mechanics.

Lovely to see you in the thread again, darling.

Personally, the path I vote for (and that I think Flower is already going in) is the latter where BTW breaks away from Mojang's development. That's not to say that BTW will become its own game, but someone who is used to minecraft who is then set in front of a BTW world would have some significant questions without other information. I mean - we're already to the point where we have our own wiki. That's the kind of knowledge base we think we require!

As far as Flower's original question of how 2.80 (now 2.81) has changed things, I cannot quite wrap my head around it. Part of that, I think, is that the majority of the work done with turntables so far has been redstone. Redstone is something I have difficulty thinking about to start - let alone advanced applications. I'm not seeing a lot of alternate chatter. Has anyone been working on minecart experiments with the turntable? How about the bellows in conjunction with other elements, like water and lava? Just curious...

[Battlecat]

I believe the Better than Wolves mod is best as something that can be added to an existing vanilla minecraft game without creating a new world. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that is currently possible.

Better than Wolves is Minecraft Advanced. The systems that are added are complex, interdependent and progress through a technological evolution. As such, it isn't really appropriate for a brand new player. Once that players has experience, it does offer fun advanced options that greatly enhance vanilla play. Ensuring someone has the ability to add it to an existing game will allow those players to add some new fun without feeling like they have to sacrifice a world they've invested many hours into. Since BtW starts from tools and resources available in vM one can add the mod at any time (I think).

The development path can and already does lead us towards playing a fundamentally different game than vM. But it does that through enhancing the existing style of gameplay instead of adding a whole series of tools that entirely invalidate the basic game. You have to work hard with the early traditional tools to earn the ability to create complex mechanical systems. While we may have issues with some decisions Notch has made, there is no denying that the vanilla game as a whole is good even if it does lack some depth. If the game didn't have good qualities to start with, we wouldn't be here complaining about it. :-)

Better than Wolves exists because FlowerChild wants more out of that vanilla game in a direction that Notch is not heading. The 1.8 adventure update sounds like it will add some farming options that may benefit this mod (ie: farmable pumpkins, persistent animals), but as a whole it sounds as if it will enhance the vanilla game in a different direction than BtW is taking. But that's ok, because we have BtW to get those options we want.

So in summary, I think Better than Wolves is best delivered as a mod that can be added to an existing vanilla world by players who have decided vM doesn't have enough. Once that happens, it doesn't matter if the BtW game design and tech tree leads to a fundamentally different style of game from vM. At this stage, this mod already does that.

[Gilberreke]

Hmm, bellows being able to push a source block of water/lava would be interesting. Not sure if it's very BTW, that's the kind of thing I'd put in my add-on actually

[Rasuth]

We already established (well, I did) that the vM and BTW tech paths are greatly independent from each other. I was talking about the "need" to go to the nether for some BTW tech to function, but soon realized you can power your cauldron with burning logs instead. It might not be very efficient but it was good enough to build a saw and thus get to the summit of the Age of Wood. Same goes for Hemp plantages, you can always grow your hemp in the wild, but then you are also prone to losses in effiencency and actual plants due to bad weather conditions.

Anyway, for me vM and BTW play quite differently already. There are distinct times when I want to advance my vM tech to get better tools/ressources or when I want to make progress with the BTW stuff.

I think FC should continue to design his mod in a fashion that allows you to progress no matter what vM tech you are at. Of course it is helpfull to have access to more ressources (especially from the nether), but right now you could handcrank your way to the saw. And that's a good thing.
Battlecat said it quite nicely. You can add the mod to a vanilla Map at any time and get something out of it.

So I'd have to agree with the others. As independent as BTW tech is right now, it can develop further on its own path. The players will have to decide how they want to balance the vM tool progression vs. the BTW tech progression. (Again: I believe, having such choice is good for a game.)

Another thing: Giving the cauldron a second level at which it can operate was ingenious. FC added depth to the game in such an elegant way it is close to art. I'm very curious to see what he comes up with next.

[Marmalade_Smile]

My above concerns aside (and it's worth stating that they are rather baseless at the moment - I'm just worried about where things could end up), I think it may be useful to compare BTW to another mod to clarify what I mean.

At the moment, what BTW gives us is greater depth in Minecraft's gameplay.

It achieves this in many ways, but to give two as practical examples:

1) Further uses for resources.

For instance, there is now a genuine reason to go the the Nether, outside of "fast travel", which I've never really used as intended. Netherrack, Soul Sand and especially Light Blocks all have really useful purposes, that round out the Minecraft progression.

2) It gives purpose to buildings.

Currently, all you really need in Minecraft is a place to sleep behind walls and a door. This you can achieve by the first night. You can build infinitely complex buildings, but they're not for any purpose.

With BTW, suddenly there is a need to build windmills and the like, shaping the land to your needs. Building suddenly has more of a purpose than pure aesthetic.

Likewise, there is a point to farming, since huge amounts of hemp are required, and the benefits from reaping each plant are limited. This means that automation is now a sensible, practical goal, rather than just an excuse to build something cool.


By comparison to other mods - for example IndustrialCraft - very little of this seems to carry over. The time I spent with IC was mostly spent on various crafting tables, creating cubes of various supposed functions. The time I spend with BTW is usually spent actually playing Minecraft, only what I consider to be a superior version ("Minecraft Advanced", if you will).

[SterlingRed]

So in summary, I think Better than Wolves is best delivered as a mod that can be added to an existing vanilla world by players who have decided vM doesn't have enough. Once that happens, it doesn't matter if the BtW game design and tech tree leads to a fundamentally different style of game from vM. At this stage, this mod already does that.

You ninja'd my thoughts.

I completely agree with battlecat here. I would have been totally lost in btw if I had it when I was brand new to minecraft. I'd have figured it out eventually, but it may have taken me a while to learn the basics of vM and btw at the same time.

vM doesn't really have a tech tree really to speak of, so btw doesn't interfere at all on that aspect of the game. I think btw works best as a mod for players who want more to do in vM since btw uses the resources of vM and expands on their uses.

[cheechako]

Getting back to an earlier point about steam: why is it complex? Perhaps transporting steam over distance could be. But AFAIK, that is a relatively recent (in the real world) use of steam. When we look at the classic steam-powered devices, steam was created and used in the same place. Even the steam locomotive, although mobile, was self-contained.

Most steam devices used the steam to create mechanical power. If we get that in BTW, cool. But keep in mind that Steve doesn't have the same motivations as real-world inventors did. For example, windmills and water wheels work as long as some very basic conditions are met. In the real world, we have to worry about currents (wind and water) and other factors; these are not 24/7, plop down anywhere devices.

As for BTW vs. vM - well, FlowerChild has already "fixed" some of the issues in vM, and I'm not just talking about bugs. So there will continue to be a disconnect and it could get larger. Much of the "heart" of the game carries through. Of course, we have no idea how 1.8 and beyond will change that. Ultimately, I don't think "how would vM do this" should be a question when talking about BTW features. If that turns it into some sort of TC, then so be it.

I've already made the analogy that vM is like virtual Legos, and BTW is like Lego Robotics. And don't think robots = futuristic; it is the style, complexity, and so on.

[Gilberreke]

Getting back to an earlier point about steam: why is it complex? Perhaps transporting steam over distance could be. But AFAIK, that is a relatively recent (in the real world) use of steam. When we look at the classic steam-powered devices, steam was created and used in the same place. Even the steam locomotive, although mobile, was self-contained

Yeah, transporting steam is not complex. In terms of minecraft we're just talking pipe blocks, junction blocks and a bunch of steam particles.

Asking FC to actually add in gas physics and actual steam blocks is like asking him to create mechanical power out of physics objects with real gears, differentials and rotating axles