BTW: Design Philosophy

[Adjudicator79]

Please Note: I do not intend for this to in any way represent the actual design philosophy of FlowerChild or the Better Than Wolves mod. This is simply my poor attempt to flesh out some of the ideas that have come to me over the past several days of reading through the BTW thread on the Minecraft Forums. Please attribute all errors and mistakes to me and feel free to correct any mistakes I've made. I read the 400+ pages of the original Minecraft Forums thread in just a few days, so I know I've missed some things.

Intent: The goal of this thread is not to offer suggestions to FlowerChild or to propose elements to BTW. The goal is to discuss the ideas and philosophies inherent in both Minecraft and BTW, together and separately. Please focus your comments (assuming anyone bothers to reply) to those concepts. I'll try to focus things specifically on a particular topic and open up the discussion until that topic is thoroughly fleshed out (or has driven us to exasperation!).

Guidelines: Please try to limit your replies to the current topic under discussion. If you missed out on an older topic you'd like to revisit, please feel free to create a new thread to revive that discussion. Or do the same if an off-topic discussion prompted by our current topic really grabs your interest.

Discussion Topics:
1) Only veterans of the thread may propose a new discussion topic. First-time posters should carefully read the thread history and catch up on a topic or two before proposing a new topic.
2) if you propose a discussion topic and it is accepted, you are the moderator for the topic. You dont' get to propose a topic and then expect someone else to manage the response. Failure to do so will cut down on the likelihood that you're future proposals will be adopted as discussion topics.
3) Do not post to the thread solely for the purpose of proposing a new topic.

I look forward to some intelligent conversations about BTW, Minecraft, and game design.

Current topic of discussion: viewtopic.php?p=3881#p3881

Should BTW pursue a development style that is geared towards only modifying vM in such a way as to remain predominantly accessible by a vanilla player stepping into the mod fresh? Or should BTW be willing to break wholly away from the development path of Mojang (though not necessarily the feel and style of vM) and pursue its own development path that might result in BTW players basically playing a separate game than vM players.

Remember that all of this is asked while acknowledging that Adventure Mode is a completely different game from current vM. We aren't talking here about whether or not BTW should move to quest driven gameplay. I don't even really see that as part of the question. BTW is a mod built around getting the most out of the tool that is vM, not about creating a new adventure gameplay experience. So lets focus on the design philosophy aspects of this question rather than the gameplay mechanics.

Previous topics of discussion:
Topic 4: viewtopic.php?p=2891#p2891

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Transportation. We have a few systems currently, some formal (minecarts and boats) and others more improvised (pistons, tnt, etc). In terms of vM, BTW, and simply player-created technologies, what sorts of transportation should we be looking into? Should we focus on transporting ourselves more quickly, efficiently, and in new ways, or must we focus more heavily on conveying our goods, blocks, and precious furry (woolly, leathery, etc) companions?

Furthermore, should we try to progress that which we have already, adding functionality to the aforementioned forms of locomotion, or should we be working towards new methods entirely. If the former-- what do we need out of our systems? If the latter-- what new frontiers of movement should we explore, and why? What situations may call for new and untapped forms of transport?

One final thing I add to consider, as it's a theme that almost seems to become vM against BTW in a sense-- multi-block systems, or single-occupant devices?

-Fracture

Topic 3: viewtopic.php?p=2470#p2470

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Okay, here's a good one, it's been bandied about since the creation of Minecraft, and many people have strong opinions on it. Hopefully by discussing it reasonably we can discover much more about the game and the Mod we've gathered around.

Why are guns considered to be incompatible with Minecraft? Or conversely, why are guns such a requested addition to the game? Does this negative reaction come from firearms betraying the Medieval "theme" of Minecraft, or is it a side effect of how guns are perceived both in video games and society?

I have a few opinions on the subject myself, but would like to see how others feel about this first.
Here's an interesting video about the gun in video games and culture.
~Triskelli

Topic 2:viewtopic.php?p=921#p921

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What we are going to attempt to do is to first define the term "Age" (with a capital A). What do we mean when we talk about an Age. Are there clear formats for deciding when one age begins and another ends? Obviously, FlowerChild's insight into his development process on this topic will be key. The working definition I stuck in the OP was "Age: Roughly, a distinct era of technological development with a beginning and ending point" but that is completely open to revision.

Next, once we've hammered out a general consensus on what an Age is, we'll look at the key elements. What does it need to include? How do we determine starting and ending points, if we decide those are needed. If it's more organic, as FlowerChild states, should we even bother looking for a clearly defined start and ending point? And, especially interesting to me, what are the differences between vM's Ages and BTW's Ages.

Topic 1: viewtopic.php?p=70#p70

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As much as I love vanilla Minecraft, there is no real direction given to players. I'm not talking about quest vs. sandbox play here, I mean progression through the technology of the game. Achievements added some of that by giving players an idea of how to advance at least for some of the tech trees, but it was very limited.

My own forays into redstone design was incredibly delayed because I had no clear idea of how to manipulate or design with the substance. Obviously, some of this is inherent into the community-based design of vM (or at least I think so, but that opinion is open for discussion). My proposal here is that BTW creates a clear sense of the ages that people so often refer to (Age of Wood, Age of Iron, etc). The question is, do you agree with the vM approach (which I take to be "throw everything at the player all at once and let them sort it out," or do you prefer the BTW approach of "technology inherently depends upon an understanding of basic principles required to advance to the next Age."

Terms and abbreviations frequently used in the thread:

• - vM: vanilla Minecraft - unmodded, straight from Notch Minecraft goodness.
  - Age: Definition to be determined. Right now, roughly, a distinct era of technological development with a beginning and ending point.
  - BTW: Seriously? Do I have to explain this?
  - Diamond reset: The idea that vM has a built in moment when the player realizes that, upon achieving absolute technological supremacy through the implementation of diamond in every piece of tech (pickaxe, armor, etc), the only thing left to do is start over - whether that be within the same world, starting a new world, or going to the Nether.
  - Technology tree: A (usually) intentionally designed logical progression for the player from one technological ability to another. Compare to similar systems found in games like Age of Empires.
  - Sandbox: A game design philosophy that avoids linear or semi-linear quest driven gameplay for complete freedom in the player's ability to interact with the world.
  - 4X: The regular pattern followed in most strategy titles - "eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate".

[Adjudicator79]

For our first discussion, a bit of history might be relevant. I first learned of BTW because Notch posted a video to his Google+ page. I didn't at that time know what the Yogcast was. I was entranced by a working windmill and waterwheel and the idea of mechanical power as an obvious "next step" in Minecraft. I Googled the mod name and found the thread and started reading. Several days later, I found the design philosophy to be especially intriguing. I don't normally run mods, preferring my Minecraft vanilla (vM).

Today, as I was once again lurking on the official Minecraft Forums BTW thread (and very shortly before reading that a new BTW-specific forum had been created ), FlowerChild replied to a brief ongoing conversation about millstones and the technology and design philosophy inherent in BTW. I've quoted the reply here as a kick off point.

A real Mill Stone actually just ejects its contents around the side, so what you are suggesting is actually LESS realistic.

But regardless, I don't really give a damn about realism either way. I'm all about what is fun, and what is contextually appropriate. I tend to consider "realism" to be a dirty word when it comes to game-design.

In this case, this behavior gives the Mill Stone its own unique set of design-constraints (which makes it more interesting to work with) and encourages the player to start playing around with automated systems in a relatively simple context. Such considerations trump realism for me any day of the week, especially since automated systems are such a big part of what is introduced to the player at the "Age of Wood" tech level.

If you can't figure out how to properly take advantage of the Mill Stone, other automated systems are going to be a MUCH bigger problem. It's worth expending the minor effort now so you have the basic skills necessary to start tackling the bigger problems later.

As much as I'd like to turn this into a personal journal about Minecraft and BTW, the point of this thread is to foster a discussion about the ideas FlowerChild is promoting with BTW. There's obviously a lot of ideas to be teased out of the design and implementation of BTW, but I'd like to start with this snipped above.

It's worth expending the minor effort now so that you have the basic skills necessary to start tackling bigger problems later.

To me, this is one of the clear elements of design philosophy present in BTW that is not present in Minecraft. As much as I love vanilla Minecraft, there is no real direction given to players. I'm not talking about quest vs. sandbox play here, I mean progression through the technology of the game. Achievements added some of that by giving players an idea of how to advance at least for some of the tech trees, but it was very limited.

My own forays into redstone design was incredibly delayed because I had no clear idea of how to manipulate or design with the substance. Obviously, some of this is inherent into the community-based design of vM (or at least I think so, but that opinion is open for discussion). My proposal here is that BTW creates a clear sense of the ages that people so often refer to (Age of Wood, Age of Iron, etc). The question is, do you agree with the vM approach (which I take to be "throw everything at the player all at once and let them sort it out," or do you prefer the BTW approach of "technology inherently depends upon an understanding of basic principles required to advance to the next Age."

Feel free to agree, disagree, or correct any of the above suppositions!

[FlowerChild]

I'm going to bump this thread as I'm actually quite curious to know what people have interpreted from the warped workings of my own mind ;)

[origsgtpepper]

I think that sometimes it is good to have a progression through the technology, but I also think that you should have somethings the player has to find out on their own. For instance there should be a way of showing people how to make saws/pullys/windmills/mills and then letting people explore what to do with those items.

It would be so funny watching someones reaction as they put a companian cube into a mill the first time.

I myself have no problems with redstone (I went from only wiring double doors to using a t flip-flop for the up and down function of my elavator in about 1 hours).

[blazeboy91]

I believe the design philosophy was to create a semi-linear path to the non-linear sandbox that is called Vanilla Minecraft. It begins with self collecting, then semi automated which culminates to completely automated. It gives a goal for people to go for without pure dependance on the game of luck that is mining. The mentality of it is that you know what is next, but you don't know how to get there just yet. That is the semi-linear part. The not so rpg linear path but the type of path that can only exist in sandbox games. The BTW mod is all powerful in the way that it changes the game. It gives the player a greater purpose than getting diamond equipment, then starting over. It makes the player create in a way that truly pulls people into it, just like the allure of Minecraft when it started.

[Capax infiniti]

To answer your main question, I definitely favor the logical progression of the BTW mod. Principally for the reason that it is indeed "realistic". In my opinion, realism, as long as it isn't at the expense of accessibility is a very desirable trait to have in a game.

Logical progression is a foundational aspect of human society. Almost all "new" knowledge is based upon information we already know. I don't see why this should be any different when it comes to designing virtual "tech trees"(again, as long as it isnt at the expense of accessibly).

[Kwilt]

When I look at Better Than Wolves, I definitely get the feeling of a technology tree, rather than a mass of jumbles thrown together for the player to figure out. And the best part is that it works well, to say the least. The progression from 'ages' (as you referred to them) to other 'ages' is definitely key in how one builds their world. I honestly hope that, one day, we'll be able to progress to an age of space travel. I mean, hey, if I remember correctly, somebody did make the joke of Steve going to the moon.

But either way, I do love the feel of a tiered experience that BTW gives, where if you want simplicity, you can have simplicity. Or, if you want, you can strive to overcomplicate ideas, but then come to simplify them in the end. (For example, a simple platform elevator, which requires only one pulley, versus a realistic lift car, which uses around four pulleys instead.)

[wolf]

just been watching some "battosay vs vids" im amazed with how much can be done with BTW mod gonna have to try come up with something of my own o_o

[Danyo]

Just like Adjudicator79, BTW is the first mod I actually got interested in. I found out through the yogscast ( Sorry ), but what set this mod apart from all others was that it kept the minecraft feel for me. I've said it before in the old thread, vM was starting to get boring for me, since I pretty much exhausted everything that's possible to do. With BTW, I once again have new options, new goals and new things that I can try to build and experiment with.

Now from what I get from the philosphy behind it is pretty much in line with what I stated above, a mod that COULD have been implemented by mojang, wich would have been in line with the minecraft original context and wasn't overly complicated to do. ( I don't mean to write BTW off as easy work, but compared to what mojang have implemented and what you have done with the mod, it seems like it should be easy for them to do things like that, since it is in fact their job. )

I do think survival is a proper part of vanilla minecraft, and I always play on a difficulty. The problem is that currently, minecraft is easy, surviving is easy once you figured everything out, and with beds, even the first night is eliminated from the picture, where it used to be a hard thing to accomplish, or something you had to endure.

Ofcourse BTW doesn't really add anything directly in the means of survival, but I think it does indirectly. Firstly, being able to have more specialized farms, better automation and other tools mean easier survival. That said, I think it also makes it slightly harder. Before BTW, I never needed to go to the nether, besides the first time it got released, I never bothered with portals on any of my worlds after that. Now with BTW, there's much more insentive for me to go to the nether, being for lightstone to make underground hemp farms, to netherrack for better coal and being able to use the cauldron for it's various uses.

In the end, I still think BTW's first intend was for flowerchild to show mojang what minecraft COULD be and probably how he thinks minecraft should be going in the future. Notch/mojang have been adding pretty useless things for quite some time now ( wich wolves at it's core really are, all what my wolves ever do is sitting in a random room 24/7 ), whereas flowerchild added things that meant something, and something that actually makes progression move forward in minecraft - mechanical power. Even if it might have started as more of a "mockery" towards mojang, I think the mod has slowly drifted away from that, and is now pretty much what flowerchild envisions minecraft to be.

Though, I have to give notch/mojang the benefit of the doubt, even though pistons don't really add progression, it's a step in the right direction of adding more tools in what is at it's core, a sandbox survival game.

I think this text is way longer then it should have been, but they were things that I've been thinking off since I found out about BTW anyway, but I didn't bother posting to much since it seemed kinda meaningless there, here it actually feels like someone's gonna read it and respond perhaps with their own ideas and views ( or I answer with mine on something someone else posted in this case )

As a last note, congratulations on finally getting the forum up and running flowerchild, I think a lot of mostly readers, but low time posters of the MC forums thread will appreciate it aswell, since it was hard to actually read through that thread to find interesting/valuable information or conversations going. If the forum stays pretty calm (I don't doubt this in the slightest :p ), I might actually be tempted to post more instead of just reading

[Triskelli]

Flower himself has repeatedly referred to different tech-levels, so the idea of ages is obviously integral to his philosophy. Noteworthy though, is the attempt to link different ages with significant events that the player must preform. The Age of Exploration, which culminates in the construction of a portal to the nether. The Age of Wood, which ends wit the creation of saws.

The question being, what other sorts of ages should BTW explore? For example, the saw ends the Age of Wood because it ends the reliance on lumberjacking almost entirely, and allows for new ways of exploiting the wood that the player has access to. So it would stand to reason that further "Ages" should economize the collection of other vital resources, as well as increase the demand for them. The Block Detector and it's use of Lapis Lazuli is a perfect example of an increased need for efficient mining of an incredibly rare resource.

Two "Ages" that I can imagine being added to BTW would be the Age of Mining, and the Age of Combat, which would allow for increased collection of ores and mob drops respectively.

That's my two cents... Might be a tad rambly, but I think it's a reasonable description of the mod's design philosophy. Creating new blocks that require rare or new items in hopes of making resource collection gradually easier.

[Adjudicator79]

[How sad does it make me that I grinned like an idiot when I saw an official FlowerChild response to my first post! *sigh* I guess I should learn to simply accept my geek status as inherent by this point in my life.]

A brief reply before I log off for the night.

origsgtpepper: I definitely think there is a space for sandbox design. And one of the strengths of BTW is definitely that it does not force a linear progression (as blazeboy91 refers to it) upon the player but merely offers it. From the little I've read, everyone's progression with redstone is different. I'm not mechanically minded (to the chagrin of my mechanic father!), so redstone takes a lot of reading and trial and error for me. I like the opportunities redstone offers, I just see its implementation in vM as a bit too sandbox. But that is a very personal take.

blazeboy91: I agree that BTW creates a semi-linear option for vM, but I question whether the intent of BTW was to impose that option for the entirety of vM. I vaguely recall (and I can see that I might need to start spending some time on the old thread identifying and reading FlowerChild's posts on his ideas behind BTW), that one of the reasons FlowerChild created the mod was his dissatisfaction with the superficial development that had been occurring in vM. To me, that speaks to an intent to see more of the potential inherent in vM realized, rather than imposing a semi-linear progression on the entire vM.

I definitely agree that the strength of BTW lies in giving the player more to do than "getting diamond equipment and starting over." I might disagree with the idea, however, that Minecraft had that when it started. I think vM has had that "diamond reset" from the beginning, it just took people a while to figure it out. Once they did, the modding explosion (and the self-imposed story elements like "Man vs. Minecraft") became the norm, rather than the minority.

Capax infiniti: I think, rather than the semi-linear context blazeboy91 proposes, the logical progression is a more workable framework for discussion. That framework allows for the possibility that BTW seeks to simply add a (forgive the repetitive term) logical expansion to vM, rather than supersede it. However, I find it interesting that you rely on the term "realism" when FlowerChild seems to reject that as a game design concept in the quote that spawned this discussion. Obviously, from a real world mechanical standpoint, it's somewhat foolish to discuss realism when talking about Minecraft. While I can appreciate a certain kind of realism in some games, Minecraft isn't one that relies on it in the same way. Beating trees with your fists to create blocks of wood requires a certain suspension of disbelief! But the logical progression terminology seems to fit in this context, as, within itself, BTW provides a sensible framework for the player to advance. Which, of course, ties into your point about tech tree design. As for logical progression being foundational to human society, I think that's an imposed historical context - basically the academic's "hindsight is 20/20" framework. We look back and see how certain progressions depended on those that came before. But in reality, life isn't usually that neat. Penicillin came about because of accidental contamination of a petri dish. Teflon was a result of shoddy lab cleaning standards. Sure, there are carefully conceived advancements based on previously developed technologies, but there are just as many leaps in human understanding that come from luck/fate/divine intervention. Within the world of Minecraft, I think that vM operates from the "accidental progression" concept, where BTW imposes the historical perspective. And you know what? I definitely prefer the latter when it comes to game, regardless of its actual legitimacy in the real world!

KWilt: I think I agree on the tech tree analogy proposed by you and Capax. I wasn't thinking in such traditional gaming terms when I mentioned the Ages, but it does seem to fit, doesn't it? And, given how I just sussed things out in my own head in my response to Capax, I find that I like that approach. vM was definitely lacking in some sense of logical progression which I'm not even sure I was aware I was missing until Capax put it into those terms. BTW creates that progression and makes Minecraft immensely more satisfying (at least to me!). As for space travel, I seem to recall FlowerChild implying that the mention of Steve on the moon was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But it does seem to fit in the overall logical context we are proposing here.

As for the simplistic vs. complex design discussion, I think we'll save that for a different round. It's got a lot more wrapped up into it than just our original question poses. But it is a good one and I'm eager to get into it later on!

wolf: I'm glad you'll be experimenting with BTW, and battosay's videos are definitely a great impetus to that. However, this thread isn't really for this kind of post, so please feel free to chime in on our design philosophy discussion and post your build intentions in one of the other threads! :D

Danyo: Thanks for your well thought out post. I agree with much of it (though not all. Law school made me incapable of agreeing 100% with anyone!) and some of what you raised will definitely come up in later discussions. I do think the survival discussion is relevant to our current discussion of technological progression vs. sandbox play. Technology, at its core, has often (though not always) been about survival. In vM, most of the tech is geared towards this (diamond picks to mine faster/longer/better, redstone to automate essential activities, etc). To me, the key is that life is not only about survival. Humanity has always found the impetus to go beyond that. In fact, our space exploration discussion feeds into this. There is no conceivable survival reasoning to pursue space exploration - especially not deep space exploration. For much cheaper, we could turn the brainpower, technology, and funding towards renewable energy, pollution cleanup and control, and medical developments and negate any conceivable need for leaving Earth (short of a Bruce Willis Armageddon-style event). But we pursue space. Why? Because we see the need for more than just survival. In my mind, one of the key elements that BTW adds is the creation of technologies for more than survival. Do windmills and waterwheels, gearboxes and axles make survival (in the Minecraft world here, not the real world) easier? Yes, undoubtedly. Go watch Battosay's videos on his automated tree farm if you have any question on that. But is that why we build it? I would argue that it's not. We build it because, with this technology available, we want to see what we can do, what we can achieve. The same motivation that drove us to search out the stars in the real world drives us to build magnificent lift-operated drawbridges in our Minecraft worlds. And that, to me, is the best part of BTW: the inspiration it provides simply by offering a technological progression that makes sense, rather than the overly-sandbox approach of vM.

Triskelli: I hadn't thought of the idea of specific events kicking off distinct Ages. I like this idea. I can definitely see the Age of Exploration being driven by the Portal and Nether. And BTW does seem to provide a capstone to the Age of Wood that was implicitly missing in vM (though I didn't notice it until you pointed it out) with the saw. That sense of accomplishment might be why the BTW mod makes me feel much happier about Minecraft as a game. Not just progressing to a new technology, but having a sense of achievement (even without an "Achievement Get" notification) in that progression.

As for your discussion of which Ages would be worth the capital "A", I'm going to declare that to be either our next, or one of our next topics for discussion. However, I don't want to close this topic off yet (since these boards are all of 8 hours old at this point!), so we'll save that for another time. But very well-reasoned post. Thanks!

Ok, everyone. I need to get to bed for work tomorrow. I'll try to catch up on things during my lunch break, so I'll chat with you then! Thanks for making this a worthwhile effort.

[Triskelli]

Thanks for the compliments

Not sure if I properly explained this, but the Age of Exploration consists more or less of the entirety of vM. Like you said, Flower has removed the Diamond Reset by adding additional "Ages" to the game. It's about survival in its' rawest form, as well as coming to understand and explore the world you've been dropped into.

The Age of Wood marks our first step beyond the realms of mere survival, and the beginnings of a true Civilization. Oddly enough, BTW seems to encouarge comparisons to strategy games... Tech-Trees, Ages, and I would hazard to add 4X to that list.

For those of you unaware of the term, 4X refers to the regular pattern followed in most strategy titles, "eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate". In the context of Minecraft progression, it would refer to the progress from a hole in the side of a mountain to branch mines and Mob grinders. I think BTW serves to punctuate and facilitate these preexisting segments in vM, providing a visual and functional flair that Notch seems to have abandoned in favor of rolling around in his massive piles of cash.



If you want a waterwheel or windmill, you'll have to build both a farm and a place to keep that power source (if you're playing legitimately) And wouldn't you know it? Looks like you have a small settlement! Guess we'll have to put a wall around it if we want to keep the creepers out, etc. By adding these ages, the player is encouraged to expand and defend what he's built, far more than vM does by relying solely on the player's desire to make a cabin or castle. I can only hope that further additions drive industry and resource collection to even greater heights.

[Danyo]

@Triskelli

I can see where you are coming from with 4X, I never looked at it that way, it's an interesting way to look at minecraft I agree that the latest additions to minecraft officially have been poor, to say it gently, the new pistons is the only thing that I can really say that's been added recently that actually add something to the game. Maps, wolves, shears, tall grass and dead shrubs are the most recent ones that got added, but they really don't add depth to the game. While BTW on the other hand, adds a lot more depth and general feel to the game, it even gives some use to some of the useless things that got added by mojang ^^

Also, I never saw that video before... I guess that's what happens when you from one day to another become a millionaire. Kinda sad to see it really :s

[FlowerChild]

Guys, you are practically bringing me to tears here.

It is so fucking good to see an intelligent conversation about the mod going on like this instead of the usual

"troll...troll...troll..."

"STOP IT!!!!"

<silence>

"troll...troll...troll..."

cycle that has been going on. Seriously, this is a major breath of fresh air for me. I feel like I've had a twenty pound weight lifted off my shoulders :)

Anyways, just wanted to chime in and say how much I appreciate this kind of thing suddenly being possible again :)

[FlowerChild]

Also, I never saw that video before... I guess that's what happens when you from one day to another become a millionaire. Kinda sad to see it really :s

Lol! Dude, I don't think any of our lives would look too good if a random 9-second clip were grabbed as an illustration ;)

[Dralnalak]

If you want a waterwheel or windmill, you'll have to build both a farm and a place to keep that power source (if you're playing legitimately) And wouldn't you know it? Looks like you have a small settlement! Guess we'll have to put a wall around it if we want to keep the creepers out, etc. By adding these ages, the player is encouraged to expand and defend what he's built, far more than vM does by relying solely on the player's desire to make a cabin or castle. I can only hope that further additions drive industry and resource collection to even greater heights.

This is a point I very much agree with. I had not thought it out to this extent, but looking at it as you have spelled it out, it is a fundamental underpinning to the mods I have enjoyed experimenting with and the parts of vanilla Minecraft I have enjoyed the most. I created tree farms to make sure I had wood handy, then had to take steps to keep those safe. I planted wheat so I would not have to worry about food, then had to take further steps to keep them safe.

Even with things I created just for show or experimentation, such as a complicate water sculpture in one of my early worlds, taking steps to protect them from the creeper (or accidental changes) were part of the fun and challenge of Minecraft that kept the game interesting for me.

It is a big part of why I enjoy farming and some of the possible additions there. Yes, the aesthetics of being able to have a variety of flowers or to use different tree types to liven up the place are part of it, but the challenge of collecting, cultivating, and protecting those new materials are as much or more of the fun.

[Fracture]

@Triskelli I hadn't thought about it like that, actually. While vM encourages you to make yourself a nice home, and perhaps defenses, it by no means encourages anything village-like outside of SMP. BTW, on the other hand, has multiple separate, distinct areas of functionality that encourages equally distinct locations for each one, if only sometimes for the volume needed for various contraptions. Gone is simply chucking every functional block you can in and beside your house, as it's replaced with an area for automated hemp farming, a wolf-dung den, a millstone, an automated tree farm, and more. It's going from building inward and down to mine, to building outward and upward for space.

Elevators help with the upward too, especially in carrying vehicles. Hatehatehate trying to get minecarts back up to the top of a mine or rollercoaster.

[Danyo]

Also, I never saw that video before... I guess that's what happens when you from one day to another become a millionaire. Kinda sad to see it really :s

Lol! Dude, I don't think any of our lives would look too good if a random 9-second clip were grabbed as an illustration

Hehe, good point. I can think of quite a bit of 9-second clips that would be a horrible illustration for myself... Mmmh, better not think to much about that one, for my own sanity's sake xD

Then again, from reading notch's blog and twitter, I've several pictures like that, just never video's I think it's not really the clip that's the problem, I think the problem is that I'm not suprised by a clip like that.

Ah well, I guess he's just trying to keep the indie feel going for as long as possible, and I can't really blame him for that I guess..

[Capax infiniti]

Capax infiniti: I think, rather than the semi-linear context blazeboy91 proposes, the logical progression is a more workable framework for discussion. That framework allows for the possibility that BTW seeks to simply add a (forgive the repetitive term) logical expansion to vM, rather than supersede it. However, I find it interesting that you rely on the term "realism" when FlowerChild seems to reject that as a game design concept in the quote that spawned this discussion. Obviously, from a real world mechanical standpoint, it's somewhat foolish to discuss realism when talking about Minecraft. While I can appreciate a certain kind of realism in some games, Minecraft isn't one that relies on it in the same way. Beating trees with your fists to create blocks of wood requires a certain suspension of disbelief! But the logical progression terminology seems to fit in this context, as, within itself, BTW provides a sensible framework for the player to advance. Which, of course, ties into your point about tech tree design. As for logical progression being foundational to human society, I think that's an imposed historical context - basically the academic's "hindsight is 20/20" framework. We look back and see how certain progressions depended on those that came before. But in reality, life isn't usually that neat. Penicillin came about because of accidental contamination of a petri dish. Teflon was a result of shoddy lab cleaning standards. Sure, there are carefully conceived advancements based on previously developed technologies, but there are just as many leaps in human understanding that come from luck/fate/divine intervention. Within the world of Minecraft, I think that vM operates from the "accidental progression" concept, where BTW imposes the historical perspective. And you know what? I definitely prefer the latter when it comes to game, regardless of its actual legitimacy in the real world!

When I use the term logical progression, I mean it it the broadest possible sense. Taking this into consideration, I think my statement is accurate. It is true that the history of human technological advancement is littered with examples of 'happy accidents', but that doesn't change the fact that almost all advances in technology, planned or not, are dependent upon technologies or information that were previously attained.

I certainly agree with you that Minecraft is unique when it comes to the "realism in games" discussion.

[darahalian]

Well, in defense of Mojang, I think they only released 1.7 to keep people busy with the pistons while they finish up the hopefully awesome Adventure update. It sounds like this is going to be a major update, which is probably why it's taking so long, and so hopefully it will be of a much higher quality than the recent updates. Though I have to say that maps are actually quite useful. Being able to see an overhead, zoomed out view like that really helps you to get a visual of the surrounding area, making it harder to get lost. I have been surprised by how close I can be to my base, but still be in unfamiliar territory. Having a map can fix that. Also, I think they are better than minimaps, since you have to work for them a little bit, and they fit the feel of minecraft better.

[Flesh_Engine]

I think that what FC has done is provide a clear and actual use for the concepts he adds that feels natural to MC. If we take the analogy to plasticraft or industrialcraft, those mods just lack that MC feeling.

During the time that the wolf update was released there was a drought of additions to the game, and those that were added where received luke-warm by the fans.
I too was disappointed at the time since coloured blocks and wolves fail to woo me to keep playing after getting past the "need iron" phase...

BTW gives you tools and a use for those tools which force you to think ahead, adapt what you have and ultimately keep you busy in the game and out of it.

FC has a good grasp on what the game needs i think, maybe in the beginning he was just proving a point but i think it got out hand and we can only be thankful for this :)

The trick is finding a concept that can be built up to, be versatile and engaging without restricting it to 1 purpose while fitting in at the same time...if that makes any sense :p

I keep wanting to make the analogy to Uberhack from TA but that's actually wrong since Uberhack didn't add anything, just changed and improved the vanilla. BTW does the opposite for MC, it adds new things without changing the existing elements where possible.

In any case, what is an interesting point to consider is the additions of blocks that don't tie into the whole tech tree thing but are things that draw people in. Like the Powered Light Block, there were countless of [REQ] threads in the mod section for this kinda thing. If a person were to look for a mod that gave you this; you'd take the one that includes well thought out and interesting other additions.

It might be a good idea to add certain things that fit in and aren't actually a part of "the bigger picture" just to draw people in. Take the Fence Gate for example, this could draw in more BTW users at little to no design effort on FC's part. Of course, this should be done sparingly since it's most likely not his intent to add random stuff, it is worth considering once in awhile...

err, /rant i guess :p

[Adjudicator79]

Wow, great comments over the night. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one interested in this kind of discussion!

Triskelli: I think your comments implied what you were saying about the Age of Exploration. At least, I certainly got your point about AE being just about all vM has to offer at this point once you learn the game mechanics. And I agree. There does seem to be an inherent philosophical bend towards exploration as the "end goal" of vM. Which fits in with the sandbox style of play and technological development that we've been talking about here. I'm not sure about everyone else, but I definitely understood that from the initial conversation we've had so far.

I like the settlement point you bring up. Prior to BTW, the only impetus to build a "village" was purely aesthetic. There was no in-game benefit to having any structures beyond a castle to house your stuff and, usually, some automated farms below ground to provide resources (just look up "underground _____ farm" on youtube and find the countless tutorials on how to provide yourself with needed supplies). Now, BTW doesn't take away the need for supplies - we've already referenced Battosay's awesome automated farms - but it does create a concept of expanding outward, into the "community" if you will, that vM does not. I think your point on building a wall around your structures for protection is exactly the kind of leap civilization made that vM was missing. Again, within the game context, our realism is not real world realism. But BTW provides in-game, logical reasoning for creating an actual community on the surface, rather than dropping a shaft to bedrock and consolidating your building in that context.

Well thought out points, Triskelli!

Danyo: I agree the 4X discussion is an interesting construct. I do think that some of the recent additions to vM make sense Shears and tall grass especially seem to be perfectly sensible elements. I just think they fall into the "we should have been doing this from the beginning" column, rather than the "this is a new way of playing the game" column. I definitely agree with your point about "giving use to the useless things Majong added." In fact, rather than seeing it as degrading, I think the dung addition is actually a "new way of playing the game" element. Dog muck was actually quite expensive in medieval Europe, as it was an essential component for tanners. I think FlowerChild has even mentioned that this was one of his reason for implementing it, as it gives actual legitimacy to the existence of tamed wolves (ie: dogs) in the game. And this actually goes back to our original question of technological development in vM vs. BTW. Here FlowerChild took a superficial addition to the game and, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, turned it into a real technological progression that I don't think I've seen in any other game, strategy or not. Here we track back a little to Capax's point about realism in the game. Even while disclaiming "realism" as a game design concept, FlowerChild has managed to provide a technological development that is closer to real world chemical technological application than any other game I've ever played. And that's where I see a distinct difference in the design philosophies behind BTW and vM. Of course, one requires significantly more thought out of players (and developers), which may be why it's fallen by the wayside.

FlowerChild: I'm glad this fits in with what you were hoping for. A lot of this has been rolling around in my head since I started reading the Minecraft Forums thread, but I didn't want to jump into that swirling maelstrom of flaming to try and carry on this kind of discussion. Glad we could restore your faith in intelligent players somewhat!

And to echo FlowerChild's implicit gentle reminder, this is not a "lets bash Mojang/vM/Notch" thread. We shouldn't forget that we'd all be off playing something else if it wasn't for their willingness to take a risk. Indie game development is too rare in this world and we should be doing all we can to encourage it. So while genuine, constructive criticism is always valuable, I want to avoid vM bashing.

Dralnalak: As I said in reply to Triskelli, it is a great way of framing the impact of BTW on the game, isn't it? And again, it leads us back slightly towards the ongoing tension between survival and "more than survival" in both game play and real life. We build greater structures because we can and because we want to see what we can do with them and those greater structures in turn allow to be better able to protect ourselves from external threats (in this case, creepers) that would destroy those advancements. It creates a microcosm of society within the vM construct. I love it!

Fracture: That's it exactly. Well phrased! The idea of your Minecraft footprint expanding to take advantage of the technical progression is a logical result from the technological progression BTW offers. vM simply says "find resources" and, because of its sandbox approach to tech, that takes the form of sinking the aforementioned shaft to bedrock and strip mining. BTW provides us with the impetus to actually care about the environment surrounding us in a way that isn't realized in vM once the player gets past the Age of Wood.

Capax: Thanks for the clarification. You are right. I was thinking about logical progression as a term to refer to intentional development of technology within the context of the game. I would agree that all technological development is dependent upon previous understanding. I guess my point here is that I think, taking "logical progression" to a more specific application to BTW and vM, that I much prefer FlowerChild's apparent preference that players understand the tech they are using in order to get to the next Age. Whereas in vM, you jump from the Age of Iron straight to redstone, depending on your geographic location. Heck, on my first ever world, I ran into redstone just exploring the natural caverns beneath my starting house. It took weeks for me to figure out what the resources even was! To me, that's a gap in game design that can easily be exploited by a game developer to provide a much richer playing experience for an audience. vM seems to be missing that. BTW seems to get it.

darahalian: Thanks for the post. I'll have to disagree with you on the maps. I've found them to be somewhat frustrating. I do like the crafted feel of them, which you allude to towards the end of your comment. But I've used maps in real life to go camping and hiking and one of the key elements is that you can mark them and add a second layer of input beyond the geographical features recorded on the map itself. In game design, this concept is known as waypoints (or at least, is tied up with a broader concept that waypoints encompass). I guess that, while I like the idea of maps, their implementation falls flat in vM for me.

I do think your point about pistons vs. adventure mode falls into the column of quest vs. sandbox progression. While that's a valid discussion to have, I think we'll hold off on that until we have a better sense of what adventure mode will entail. My problem with incorporating that discussion here is that we will inherently be talking about a different game. vM is not a quest game. The addition of an adventure mode will change vM very significantly and I think it is fair to say that, if the adventure mode update is at all substantial, then there could legitimately be two games named Minecraft that we are talking about.

Flesh_Engine: We are humbled by one of the Flying Turtles deigning to take an interest in our discussion! Thanks! I especially like this line from your post:

BTW does the opposite for MC, it adds new things without changing the existing elements where possible.

I agree wholeheartedly. The application of BTW to vM takes the game to a (nod to Capax again, here) logical progression from its original form without changing the substance of that form. To use an architectural analogy, since this is a building game and all, it's the difference between adding an expansion to a house that provides additional functionality without breaking the initial design style (Tudor, Victorian, etc) and simply whacking a great big box onto the side of the house to hold the new functional elements. BTW holds to the design framework of vM, while adding significant functionality.

I hadn't thought about the impact of non-tech blocks on the game in the same way as the tech progression discussion, but your point is well taken. Some blocks may not fit entirely into our neat tech tree concept, but do serve to provide enjoyment to the players. This, especially, is where FlowerChild's disdain for "realism" in game design functions best, I think. In a logical technology tree do light blocks make the most sense? Probably not. Oh, we could have a nice round of arguments and discussion and eventually come up with an "explanation" of how they fit in, but the reality is that it would be a rationalization. The real reason (I would assert) behind the light blocks is that they make sense from a gameplay stand point, don't break the aforementioned design philosophy, and make the game more enjoyable for its players. Here I'm entirely on board with FlowerChild's willingness to ditch "realism" for actual enjoyable gameplay.

Ok, that's my morning updates. I'll try to log back in at lunch time and take a look at any further discussion, but I love it so far! Keep up the intelligent posting and lets try to collectively restore FlowerChild's faith in the existence of the mythical "intelligent player/poster."

[Triskelli]

**DISCLAIMER**

My only qualification to speak on this topic is my position as a professional blowhard.


That being said, I do feel I've short-shafted Notch and Mojang in my last post. I'm sure they work hard enough, and the content updates they do provide add some interesting and useful objects to Vanilla. The only problem is that these more recent updates seem to lack a coherent theme, or at the very least they contribute very little to the existing theme of exploration.

@darahalian, while Maps and beds are sorely needed features (and I would argue that shears scratch an old itch too), many of the other items are superfluous or could have been executed better. The Watch for instance is useful but is misplaced as an item as opposed to a block. Making a Clock would add an aesthetic and functional aspect that the Watch can't fulfill.

It would be as if Flower had chosen to add an Engine block instead of waterwheels or windmills. It does its job, most likely better than its chunkier counterparts. But it doesn't provide challenge on the part of the user to place it in his world. Slap it down anywhere, and you return to the same problem of "Why should I leave my mine?".

It's these multiblock systems that impress people in any mod or Minecraft video, and the bigger you can make them the more awestruck viewers will be. Currently, Vanilla has three multiblock systems: Rails, Redstone, and the Nether Portal. BTW add more and more useful systems in the forms of Hibachi-Cauldrons, Ropes, Machines, and useful sorting/movement blocks.


This may be a little off-topic and is likely more suitable for a different discussion topic, but has anyone here read The Mysterious Island by Jules Verne? Without going into too much detail, it's a story where a group of people are stranded on a deserted island with next to nothing to survive with. It then follows how they manage to eke out a living and eventually flourish in their new home, making bricks, iron tools, and even nitroglycerin! It very well encapsulates the feeling of exploration that Minecraft evokes, and is worth a quick read.

[Battosay]

It's this kind of topic that makes me really glad to have this new forum :)
Sticked.
Now gimme time to read all that ^^

[Urian]

Interesting discussion and definitely a sign of what positive effects moving to a new forum has brought; intelligent discussions :D

For me, one aspect of BTW that I very much enjoy is that the progress feels much more logical than in several other mods. We're not going from using stone pickaxes to robotic factories or nuclear power plants (BuildCraft and IndustrialCraft, I'm looking at you ;) ) over night. Rather Steve has a more natural learning curve and technological progress, an obvious example is the millstone and hand crank; we need to start off there before we can progress to a more advanced level with automated systems. From the information we've gotten so far regarding what Flower has in store for us (and Steve) in the future, this technological progress will continue tier by tier :p (Those who've been with BTW for a while might remember Flower comparing the technological progress to tech trees from various other games, Age of Empires comes to mind with it's ages and the various technological improvements that become available as you progress in the game.)

Beside the fact that Steve has to earn his new tools, I also like that most of the new blocks aren't one trick ponies. We don't get one block that's e.g. merely a faster furnace or such. Instead we have blocks like the Detector Block that or Block Dispenser. By themselves they might not be that impressive but when you utilize them in a larger system, they open up a lot of new possibilities. I'm still not entirely certain if Flower had decided to provide tools for automation from the start or if the (apparent) automation functions are something that's been influenced by the very nice systems several people have built. I don't know if there was a specific point when the (old) thread became quite focused on automation but after the discussion about automated hemp farming, there was at least a notable increase in the interest in automated farms (especially Evolution_Zero's (I think it was) modular hemp farm was truly inspiring).