Better Than Wolves Forum

FlowerChild wrote:Also keep in mind that orbit is not really feasible without a node or two purchased in tech level 4, so if you're before that point, you probably shouldn't be aiming for it in the first place :)

This is my current tech. I've exhausted almost every source of science except for the gravity-biome thing, but other than ocean, grasslands, hills and mountains, I can't get anywhere else.

Larmantine wrote: I've exhausted almost every source of science except for the gravity-biome thing, but other than ocean, grasslands, hills and mountains, I can't get anywhere else.

Ah, ok, I see what's going on there. You don't have stack separators yet so attaining orbit would be rather difficult without any staging.

And yeah, at this point you really do need to obtain a stable orbit in order to milk the Gavioli Detector, particularly a polar orbit if you can manage it (a polar orbit will cross all biomes at some point or another as Kerbin rotates beneath it, and will also get you the tundra and ice cap biomes).

So really what you're left with is making sure that you milk the other experiments you have to get enough science to get to the point where you're able to get into orbit.

Have you run all the others at all the possible altitudes? Surface, low altitude (<18 km), high altitude (>18 km), low orbit (> 70 km) & high orbit (> 250km)? While you might not be able to obtain a stable orbit, each of those should be easily obtainable with an unstaged rocket. Also, are you returning your goo containers safely to the surface after running experiments on them? The data can't be transmitted, and if you try to, you'll just lose all associated science (known issue I'll be trying to address).

The last place you can milk science right now is vessel recovery. It doesn't provide much, but it may be enough to push you over the edge.

If all else fails, I'll try to put together an orbiter with that tech unlocked though to see if it's doable (I think it is), and post a screenshot of the results.

Well, after throwing three quick designs together with that tech, I failed to achieve orbit with each, so while I'm sure I could eventually do it if I played around some more with it, I wouldn't consider it easy enough to be viable for most players at this stage, at least not without resorting to exploits.

So yeah man, let me know if the other stuff I mentioned above opens up further tech to you, or I may need to do some further tweaking at tech 4 to prevent the above becoming a dead end.

FlowerChild wrote:Well, after throwing three quick designs together with that tech, I failed to achieve orbit with each, so while I'm sure I could eventually do it if I played around some more with it, I wouldn't consider it easy enough to be viable for most players at this stage, at least not without resorting to exploits.

So yeah man, let me know if the other stuff I mentioned above opens up further tech to you, or I may need to do some further tweaking at tech 4 to prevent the above becoming a dead end.

Somehow managed to scratch enough science to open up "T3 Basic Construction". Although not sure yet if i made the right choice. Starting to think that "Advanced Rocketry" would be a better choice for satellites.

EDIT: That is, using the sequential explosion decoupling with the T10 solid boosters.

Larmantine wrote: Somehow managed to scratch enough science to open up "T3 Basic Construction". Although not sure yet if i made the right choice. Starting to think that "Advanced Rocketry" would be a better choice for satellites.

Nah man, once you have decouplers, orbit is a breeze without advanced rocketry. Yes, the LV-909 is great for top stages, but is in no way necessary. Just means you'll be pushing more weight in a heavier engine to orbit than you would otherwise.

Larmantine wrote: EDIT: That is, using the sequential explosion decoupling with the T10 solid boosters.

That's a really nasty exploit I'll likely be taking care of one way or another, so I'd advise against using it.

I'm pretty sure I have a tech 4 orbiter without advanced rocketry lying around (it's usually the last tech I buy), so I'll dig it up.

Yeah, here's the last one I put together:
And as you can see, I definitely didn't make it as light as I could have, with all kind of extra parts on it, and also built it for reentry with the goo canisters, so I'm sure you can make something that would be way easier to orbit than that.

The really good thing about unlocking decouplers is that if you do design a rocket and it seems to be just falling short, you can always strap a few solid fuel boosters to the bottom of them; taking a large bite out of that initial fight with gravity can make all the difference,even if you seem to have only hit 100m/s when you ditch them.

Larmantine wrote: Somehow managed to scratch enough science to open up "T3 Basic Construction".

BTW: How did you do it and what were you missing? Knowing that would likely help me with further balancing.

Good news is I saw something in the last report about squad putting together a page that let's you see what you have and haven't done. I think that would help a lot.

Sarudak wrote:Good news is I saw something in the last report about squad putting together a page that let's you see what you have and haven't done. I think that would help a lot.

Yup, agreed, and it's the kind of thing I'd likely want to put together myself depending on their timeline for release, before releasing BTSM to the general public.

For now though, I'm primarily focused on the overall balance rather than the level of polish something like the above would represent.

Hence why I'd like to know how he resolved the roadblock. If it was just that he forgot an altitude level or something, that's all well and good as that's not really a balance problem as much as it is a lack of feedback which I know can eventually be resolved.

Ah, 100 Science points. What to do with them? Having a dilemma between Advanced Flight Control and Space Exploration. Won't decide just yet.

FlowerChild wrote:BTW: How did you do it and what were you missing? Knowing that would likely help me with further balancing.

Um, I don't recall now but i think it was goo.. Yeah i released one in an altitude which i have missed before and another one on water. Oh no, those were afterwards, I think I accidentally released it on surface at first after my launch failed.

Anyway, thanks for the help. Ever considered cloning yourself? That way, many games would get from good to awesome.

Sarudak wrote:Good news is I saw something in the last report about squad putting together a page that let's you see what you have and haven't done. I think that would help a lot.

Is there any other way to get this info? I know I"m missing a few things especially with the changes FC made, It'd be interesting to see a table or something just to make sure I'm not missing things, I've not been able to remember what I've done.

Mason11987 wrote:

Sarudak wrote:Good news is I saw something in the last report about squad putting together a page that let's you see what you have and haven't done. I think that would help a lot.

Is there any other way to get this info? I know I"m missing a few things especially with the changes FC made, It'd be interesting to see a table or something just to make sure I'm not missing things, I've not been able to remember what I've done.

ATM the only way is using the "Research & Development Overview" plugin

maxsi wrote:

Mason11987 wrote:

Sarudak wrote:Good news is I saw something in the last report about squad putting together a page that let's you see what you have and haven't done. I think that would help a lot.

Is there any other way to get this info? I know I"m missing a few things especially with the changes FC made, It'd be interesting to see a table or something just to make sure I'm not missing things, I've not been able to remember what I've done.

ATM the only way is using the "Research & Development Overview" plugin

Awesome, Thanks!

Yay! After re-watching Apollo 13 the other night, I think I'm on my way to resolving this command vs landing module problem :)

I was wondering if reentry effects alone would really be enough to resolve this problem, which I don't think it will be, because you could always shield a landing module. Then it occurred to me that I can do something very similar in code for the landing modules as I'm currently doing for the low tech airplane cockpits with pressure.

It wouldn't just be a matter of the landing module surviving reentry, but rather it surviving reentry while keeping the occupants alive. I can rather easily build in some code whereby even if the module itself survives, the crew can wind up dead due to a landing module not being able to shield them well from the external temperature, and with them of course having a much lower temperature tolerance than the module itself :)

And with that, I think I have a good handle on how tech level 6 is going to work ;)

Does anyone else have their liquid fueled engine randomly have no effect? I mean the sound plays and the engine displays fire and I can throttle it up and down but it doesn't seem to actually produce any thrust. This problem usually only shows up in orbit so it's really frustrating because I'll get my ship up there and then try to do a burn to no effect. :(

Sarudak wrote:Does anyone else have their liquid fueled engine randomly have no effect? I mean the sound plays and the engine displays fire and I can throttle it up and down but it doesn't seem to actually produce any thrust. This problem usually only shows up in orbit so it's really frustrating because I'll get my ship up there and then try to do a burn to no effect. :(

I've never seen that happen man. Sounds very strange.

Sarudak wrote:Does anyone else have their liquid fueled engine randomly have no effect? I mean the sound plays and the engine displays fire and I can throttle it up and down but it doesn't seem to actually produce any thrust. This problem usually only shows up in orbit so it's really frustrating because I'll get my ship up there and then try to do a burn to no effect. :(

Forgive me if this is too obvious, but is this a problem of accidentally double-hitting the spacebar? Have you tried right clicking on the engine to see if you can manually start it?

Without seeing the rocket itself, it sounds exactly like you might be controlling an engine which was not decoupled.

Good call. That sounds exactly what it would likely be :)

Detached engine that's still pushing your craft around but which you no longer have any control over. It's also possible to have a structural failure result in this as opposed to an intentional stack separation.

FlowerChild wrote:"Balance" doesn't exactly make for interesting screenshots man :P

Yeah sorry, I am just having trouble getting started with gaining science. And some kinda direction from a pic or text or vid would help a lot. I have used the barometer and thermometer, now I get no more.. Ill figure it out though.

Dale wrote:

FlowerChild wrote:"Balance" doesn't exactly make for interesting screenshots man :P

Yeah sorry, I am just having trouble getting started with gaining science. And some kinda direction from a pic or text or vid would help a lot. I have used the barometer and thermometer, now I get no more.. Ill figure it out though.

You only need to do research with one thing, in one place, once. And that's all the science you'll get from there with that. Thankfully there are lots of different places, with lots of research options, so do new things! For science.

Stormweaver wrote:

Dale wrote:

FlowerChild wrote:"Balance" doesn't exactly make for interesting screenshots man :P

Yeah sorry, I am just having trouble getting started with gaining science. And some kinda direction from a pic or text or vid would help a lot. I have used the barometer and thermometer, now I get no more.. Ill figure it out though.

You only need to do research with one thing, in one place, once. And that's all the science you'll get from there with that. Thankfully there are lots of different places, with lots of research options, so do new things! For science.

Mind saying more? Cause what I am thinking is that you mean that I have to use my instruments in different locations?

Dale wrote:

Stormweaver wrote:

Dale wrote:

FlowerChild wrote:"Balance" doesn't exactly make for interesting screenshots man :P

Yeah sorry, I am just having trouble getting started with gaining science. And some kinda direction from a pic or text or vid would help a lot. I have used the barometer and thermometer, now I get no more.. Ill figure it out though.

You only need to do research with one thing, in one place, once. And that's all the science you'll get from there with that. Thankfully there are lots of different places, with lots of research options, so do new things! For science.

Mind saying more? Cause what I am thinking is that you mean that I have to use my instruments in different locations?

Well, Thermometers, Barometers and goo canisters want to be used on the surface, in the air, in the upper atmosphere, low orbit and in space high above kerbin (and later, other celestial bodies), and the gravioli detector and crew reports want to be done in low orbit over all the different biomes.

Dale wrote:Mind saying more? Cause what I am thinking is that you mean that I have to use my instruments in different locations?

I've listed the altitude "zones" a few times in this thread man if you scroll back a bit

Currently for Kerbin they're:

Launchpad/Surface
Low Altitude (< 18km)
High Altitude (> 18km)
Low Orbit (> 70km)
High Orbit(> 250km)

You can find these zones by triggering the experiment in different places as the description will change up top when you've moved into a new one. I highly recommend assigning your experiments to action groups (basically hot-keys that you can assign in the rocket editor) as it makes repeatedly triggering them much more convenient than having to click on the parts.

The Gravioli Detector and Crew Report experiments also subdivide the low orbit zone into "biomes" which means you will get different results (and science points) depending which kind of terrain you're over.

No it's definitely not detached as I have complete control over it. Like I said I can still throttle it up and down. Turn it off and on again. But it provides no thrust. I can see the fuel going down but it doesn't affect my orbit at all. In fact last time it happened I was in full burn right next to the previous detached stage and I wasn't moving at all relative to the detched stage. Maybe there's something wrong with my install.