What is BWF?

[FlowerChild]

Talk to Lex again, apologize for calling him a nazi ...

See...I was reading up until that point, then cracked up laughing.

Hehehe...no, good one man, but absolutely not going to fucking happen. That's called "hypocrisy". Lex and crew may specialize in that, but no...that's not me.

[abominare]

I totally think he had it coming. What he said was despicable about letting the other guy steal your stuff tekkit style so it can be on his precious forge.

It makes him the biggest hypocrite of them all. You acting civil and being the bigger man doesn't make you a hypocrite. You can be hurt and angry but still be willing to move forward and not be a hypocrite. It just makes you not only the better modder but the better person to boot.

At the very least I'm glad you made it that far in my post. I had been thinking about what I wanted to say the last two days and really I want to thank you for all your hard work and I hope for the best, as some one who has to rely on my personal creations as my livelihood I really understand how some one ruthlessly stealing and gutting your baby can make you feel violated.

[daafroman]

Wow am I happy I have a policy to get both sides of the story before I openly state opinions on who's in the right or not.

First, I will mention that when I learned that BTW was dropping out of forge, I figured it was because of you (Flowerchild) being a sort of brat. I was a bit upset and everything because I couldn't use it with other mods that rely on forge (Such as dynamic lights and NEI). I feel bad for even suspecting it now after reading into both sides of the story. To be honest, I still would have thought that if someone didn't intentionally start a mod to 'be a BTW replacement' for forge while openly stating that was this was the very case, and then going to such lengths to essentially make a somewhat insulting parodied version of your name to do so. That's what started to make me think about it a little bit.

Even if the official forge team had no direct involvement with this, the mere fact that someone wants to disrespect you by making what boils down to a forge copy of BTW is outright sickening. This mixed with how they treat the users of their API (Seriously, you ever look at how Lex responds to people on the forge forums for suggesting certain hooks and features to be added if he doesn't like the idea for any reason?) makes me simply disgusted with forge.

Unfortunately, I also can't argue that I don't like how forge handles loading in mods...

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Heh, typed this and realized it was unrelated. I still want it readable for some odd reason though so I just put a spoiler tag on it. :P

So I'm at a personal standoff here. I am trying to write a mod that changes the nether in ways that I have not seen other mods do before (It actually will wind up completely rewriting the vanilla nether but keeping the vanilla feel at the same time; I will likely also need to change the biome code for what I plan). While I could use forge to speed this up for the initial build, I don't like the idea that forge has basically become the mafia in the fact 'if we want you in, you have no choice'. Besides, in order for it to do what I want I would have to use every API out there to avoid editing base classes out there have and still end up editing base classes anyways. So I think I just solve my own standoff here. I kinda have to go with a base class mod. That or make my own API. :-/

Anywho, point is. I really just signed up and posted to let you know I am on your side now, as little as that probably means coming from me. lol. Keep on rockin' man!

[Mason11987]

Sengir wouldn't have survived the tekkit vindictive bees issue if every other modder disliked him. He survived because he played the game and had allies to come and white knight for him.

"Survived"? What does that even mean? DO you think people would have stopped playing Forestry just because a handful of the loudest complainers on the forum were upset at him? You seem to think the majority of the audience of mods like this are the 30-40 or so who talk the loudest. People who think that "survival" is on the line are ridiculous. If Sengir wanted to make his mod he would continue to do so and probably thousands would continue to play it even if he didn't have "people to come to his rescue", or whatever that means. I don't even know how you think that happened, no one came to his rescue, he got pissed and fucked up some tekkit players worlds. Why exactly did he need saving? What did he have to survive? Some children who are angry their stolen mod broke their game? Whoop-dee-do.

Even if he (or FC for that matter) somehow lost 90% of their players because of drama what does that even mean? It's not like you get banned from the MCF if your mod doesn't reach thousands of people every release. People with an audience of 10 seem to survive just fine.

[abominare]

Sengir wouldn't have survived the tekkit vindictive bees issue if every other modder disliked him. He survived because he played the game and had allies to come and white knight for him.

"Survived"? What does that even mean? DO you think people would have stopped playing Forestry just because a handful of the loudest complainers on the forum were upset at him? You seem to think the majority of the audience of mods like this are the 30-40 or so who talk the loudest. People who think that "survival" is on the line are ridiculous. If Sengir wanted to make his mod he would continue to do so and probably thousands would continue to play it even if he didn't have "people to come to his rescue", or whatever that means. I don't even know how you think that happened, no one came to his rescue, he got pissed and fucked up some tekkit players worlds. Why exactly did he need saving? What did he have to survive? Some children who are angry their stolen mod broke their game? Whoop-dee-do.

Survived as in, continue to modded unabated. The other modders and eventually what started with forge/FTB gave him the social support to not just rage quit/lose faith in continuing to mod, even when his forums became flooded with hate towards messing up tekkit worlds. Most importantly, was that it eventually began to push people into the thinking that modders deserved respect of their work and to not have it shamelessly taken, and Ideal that forge devs have lost touch on apparently.

Anyone who has ever had their stuff stolen in any sort of way has had the thought of "why the fuck am I just going to keep doing this is some asshole is going to take it anyways".

Forestry continued to go strong even after Tekkit dropped it, which we would all be a little naive to deny that at that point tekkit was the major method for introducing people to mods. While I don't doubt that FC has every intention of continuing the mod for himself, I think on some level he'll even admit that hes given a good feeling when people compliment him and gets to see that people are downloading and enjoying his work, if it was at zero would he really being getting upset that hes he'll need to update stuff on his christmas break thanks to 1.4.6?

[Mason11987]

Forestry continued to go strong even after Tekkit dropped it, which we would all be a little naive to deny that at that point tekkit was the major method for introducing people to mods. While I don't doubt that FC has every intention of continuing the mod for himself, I think on some level he'll even admit that hes given a good feeling when people compliment him and gets to see that people are downloading and enjoying his work, if it was at zero would he really being getting upset that hes he'll need to update stuff on his christmas break thanks to 1.4.6?

Meh, I'm unconvinced. Mods were quite popular before tekkit, they'd be popular without it. It doesn't really introduce people to your mod, it introduces them to "tekkit", I would wager half the tekkit players don't even know what components are part of forestry and what's part of buildcraft. I do know MCF threads get flooded with support demands from tekkit users who appear to be among the least competent minecraft players out there, as they seem to not be able to handle even simple instructions. Hardly much of a loss I'd say. If Sengir was saved it was because he provided an interesting mod that people wanted even if it wasn't pre-packaged.

People who support and spotlight actual mods and their features outside of tekkit (like Direwolf20) are wildly popular as well, which is obvious from the number of views they get. Forestry is very popular, while tekkit certainly contributed I doubt most modders would lose sleep if those tekkit players weren't playing their mods.

I'm sure FC is happy he gets substantial downloads, but as someone who has created products for people on the internet myself I know that over a certain number it stops being a service for appreciative friends, and starts being a job for demanding customers. I see FC making this forum as a way to feel as if it's the former, even though his users are far more numerous then that.

[Whovian]

I'll have to say, BWF's a pretty obvious violation of Flowerchild's copyright. I wonder, how many Forge people are against Tekkit? If a good number of them are, then, by the same argument, they should be against BWF.

[BinoAl]

I'll have to say, BWF's a pretty obvious violation of Flowerchild's copyright. I wonder, how many Forge people are against Tekkit? If a good number of them are, then, by the same argument, they should be against BWF.

As badass as your avatar is, animated GIFs for avatars are against the rules ;)

[Whovian]

As badass as your avatar is, animated GIFs for avatars are against the rules ;)

Thanks, removing.

[Dante80]

Here is a post I made in vMC forums regarding the matter.

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A couple of points for the discussion, hope that helps (I doubt it but..anyway).

1. Compatibility of a mod like BTW with an API like Forge would be a big plus to the end user. It gives the player the opportunity to use the mod in conjunction with others from a vast array of resources that can definitely provide more immersion and added gameplay value to their worlds. That holds true for all mods that are not complete conversions and all APIs that have enough mods compatible with them to offer the variety needed to the player.

Granted, BTW as a mod has a stand alone vanilla plugin philosophy that can be easily destroyed when used with mods that provide similar mechanics or solutions, thus breaking both internal consistency and overall gameplay progression for the player. But there are a lot of mods out there that can and will complement it without doing that, making the end result both worthwhile and beneficiary.

2. I do not understand why some of the posters try to base their arguments about the validity of BWF on Flowerchilds behavior or character.

3. I don't think that anyone questions the motives of the people responsible for the BWF rewrite, especially if he knows the history between Forge and BTW.

4. Reading some of the posts related to the subject, an unrelated third party feels that the hypocrisy is thick enough to cut with a machete. Especially when people try to provide arguments for BWF, while at the same time they trash Technic/Tekkit on moral grounds in other posts. Frankly its somewhat hilarious, especially when coming from modders. And of course, typical of the current state of the MC modding community.

Cheers...^^

All in all, I think that many people have the difficulty of calling a spade as a spade. Especially considering the way this "rewrite" surfaced.

[Triskelli]

After looking at the modder's webpage that he's set up, apparently this is less of a rewrite and more of a shell for BTW that makes it compatible with Forge API. Here's the link.

[Stormweaver]

Ah, so that's the name behind floweradult then.

I'm...unimpressed.

[FlowerChild]

Ah, so that's the name behind floweradult then.

No, I seriously doubt that's it. I suspect that's just the guy they got to run the web page.

They obviously want to keep who is doing this secret. Lacking the courage of their convictions and all that.

[FlowerChild]

Actually, they even have this disclaimer at the bottom of the page:

"All downloads provided are not the work of Ezekiel."

[embirrim]

Haha, check out the bug reports.

48 Hardcore Mode BWF rips off ideas and is morally bankrupt. Being inspired is ok, outright stealing concepts/ideas and mimicking artwork is wrong.

[Stormweaver]

Ah, missed that.

[FlowerChild]

Haha, check out the bug reports.

Yeah, that one gave me quite a good chuckle :)

[ReaperT]

I fail to see how this can even be called a rewrite when it requires the original legitimate version of BTW in order to run.

EDIT: Actually, since BTW is required to be placed in the config folder, you could put in some code saying that if the mod is found in the config folder, minecraft will crash or have it constantly rain wolves or something else that would screw with them. You would just need to decompile their code and find out how they're using BTW in their "rewrite" and use that against them.

[destineternel]

There is a mcf moderator that has posted something about BWF on a discussion thread.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/160 ... ry19699714

with a screenshot attached.

[logorouge]

Haha, check out the bug reports.

Eh eh, the "I'm on a wolf" bug report made me laugh pretty hard. Whoever wrote that one, well done good sir, well done.

[destineternel]

yea, I picture the old spice guy as I read that, totally LOL'd!

[FlowerChild]

After looking at the modder's webpage that he's set up, apparently this is less of a rewrite and more of a shell for BTW that makes it compatible with Forge API. Here's the link.

No man...that's not the case.

To my knowledge, the only thing being used from the BTW when you put it in the config folder, is the textures. I suspect that is just their attempt to get around any problems they might encounter should the distribute them.

If you run BWF, you simply are not running BTW in any way. In theory (because I haven't looked through the code myself) it an entirely rewritten mod using my code as a reference in creating the copy.

[nmarshall23]

I just don't see BWF as a serious competitor to BTW.
At best it can only be a cheep copy.

Sure they can copy some game functionality. However, I doubt they get BTW's game design.
And it's that game design that provides the fun.
In fact the desire to use other forge mods will invalidate that game design.
Most of the Forge tech mods are all about doing things easily.
Are they really going to implement all of the hardcore features?

Sure I would love for BTW to work with a few other mods, but only if those other mods add synergy to my game experience. And that would require those mods to conform to BTW's game design.

The best part of BTW is how it imposes limitations on you. And then gives you a more immersive game play. FC never left me out in the cold.. he gives us in game tools. Refocus our game play, into playing the game.

[Battosay]

Ok, after watching a bit more of that stream, I realized that this BWF thing is gonna be much, much better than BTW : They have stairs, tables and pedestal/columns for EVERY block in game.
Diamond ore Stairs. Companion cube table. Dung pedestal. Powder keg stairs.
POWDER KEG STAIRS ! How the hell did you not realize how much we need did FC ?!?

.....

[Mason11987]

Ok, after watching a bit more of that stream, I realized that this BWF thing is gonna be much, much better than BTW : They have stairs, tables and pedestal/columns for EVERY block in game.
Diamond ore Stairs. Companion cube table. Dung pedestal. Powder keg stairs.
POWDER KEG STAIRS ! How the hell did you not realize how much we need did FC ?!?

.....

In case you what a halfway as good experience, I made an add-on for dung subblocks... >_>