Philosophical ramblings (Was: My single problem with BTW.)

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, don't post pirate links like that man. My (admittedly limited) understanding of such things is that clips of shows of a certain length may be posted freely, but putting up an entire episode like that isn't kosher.

[TheAnarchitect]

The biggest flaw in psychology research today is that it's experimental population is almost exclusively middle class people in western cultures of the age and means to attend a university. That itself really limits it's generalizability. Also, no one is ever going to ever have a really good picture of how the mind works, for the same reason you can't use a computer to simulate itself. Nevertheless, however bad our psychology experiments are, in general our own self perception is even worse. This is something we as a species are specifically bad at doing.

As a result, I try really hard to couch my language on these topics with "evidence suggests," "It's likely that," and "this leads me to beleive." My english teachers might get on my case about using a passive voice, but I want to make it clear that I'm not operating from a position of surety or authority, and I deny that position to others.

[jorgebonafe]

Yeah, don't post pirate links like that man. My (admittedly limited) understanding of such things is that clips of shows of a certain length may be posted freely, but putting up an entire episode like that isn't kosher.

Humm.. Didn't consider that... I'd think though if it was illegal the episodes would be removed pretty fast from a site like that, but yeah, I don't really know, so... Sorry about that

[Ulfengaard]

Humm.. Didn't consider that... I'd think though if it was illegal the episodes would be removed pretty fast from a site like that, but yeah, I don't really know, so... Sorry about that

No cake for you. Two weeks.

Having studied psych for my undergrad, I can say with some certainty that even IF sublimation actually leads to an overall worsened psychological state, sometimes it's just necessary. Like psychiatric meds. Sure, some of them have VERY serious side effects, but there are cases in which they are absolutely necessary for preventing some truly terrible things from happening in the short term.

Punching a wall has its place. And, yeah, I thumb my nose at any research which might tell me otherwise, fully cognizant as I am of psychological research methods and existing literature.

[FlowerChild]

The biggest flaw in psychology research today is that it's experimental population is almost exclusively middle class people in western cultures of the age and means to attend a university. That itself really limits it's generalizability. Also, no one is ever going to ever have a really good picture of how the mind works, for the same reason you can't use a computer to simulate itself. Nevertheless, however bad our psychology experiments are, in general our own self perception is even worse. This is something we as a species are specifically bad at doing.

I agree with all of the above, I just don't think that researchers are generally any better at determining these things than I am, being just as flawed and human as anyone else. Also, the above would also apply to the selection of which studies you decide are relevant and sufficiently objective, which in itself is subject to your own judgement.

I think a study can present a compelling contribution to a discussion at times, but I don't think I've ever seen one settle a matter.

And still, I am left back where I was on this: I'd much rather someone release a momentary outburst of aggression on a wall, than on a person. Yes, as I said before, neither is desirable. I agree with the previous poster that continually punching walls will likely just turn you into an aggressive prick in the long run through conditioning it as a routine behavior. However, continually punching people will obviously do the same thing, and be much worse for everyone around you.

And once again too, I come back to me playing the drums, and me being well aware that it makes me a calmer individual overall through channeling a lot of stress and aggression into inanimate objects. Would anyone seriously try to argue that isn't really the case, and that it isn't constructive? What on earth are we left with then as a valid release of negative emotion? Working a bag? Jogging? First person shooters? Sex? Take them all away, and the only avenue that seems left open to us is repression.

Also, I certainly wouldn't argue that repetition can't condition you into negative behaviors. I attended boot camp, so I'm well aware of that :)

As a result, I try really hard to couch my language on these topics with "evidence suggests," "It's likely that," and "this leads me to beleive." My english teachers might get on my case about using a passive voice, but I want to make it clear that I'm not operating from a position of surety or authority, and I deny that position to others.

Yeah, as do I, usually by making sure to include "I think" in a sentence where I know it's a matter of opinion.

[Elevatator]

This thread went off-topic

[natchu96]

This thread went off-topic

We know, but FC doesn't seem to mind for some reason . . .

[Dirdle]

This thread went off-topic

I think we're all in vehement near-agreement, really. But we're working off anger =P

[FlowerChild]

Actually, I don't think it did. We were discussing the moral aspects of BTW, and we're currently debating whether some of it can act as a catharsis...largely by discussing whether catharsis is even a valid psychological mechanism.

I don't think it went off-topic as much as we're currently focusing on one particular aspect of the overall topic.

[ada221]

this thread has turned into a very deep debate/discussion over the subconcious/semi-concious. i love this kind of philosophical conversation, it really makes you review the human psyche(spelling? pronounciation to clarify: "psy-kee")

[Rianaru]

this thread has turned into a very deep debate/discussion over the subconcious/semi-concious. i love this kind of philosophical conversation, it really makes you review the human psyche(spelling? pronounciation to clarify: "psy-kee")

Although I don't wholly support Freudian psychological theory, and tend to support more of the behavioral and cognitive aspects of psychology as a field of study, yes it has.

[TheAnarchitect]

Perhaps it is then best to think of Catharsis as a useful but dangerous tool, one that can save us trouble in the short term but cause long term problems if it's habitual.

Like booze.

I still find the safety valve metaphor for cartharsis to be suspect. In the end, though, it's all metaphors for what really goes on (complex chemical interactions), so if the question isn't whether a mental model is "true" so much as "is it useful?"

[Sarudak]

Ok, so wait...you're saying that your every desire and impulse is rational and morally justifiable at all times?

Dude, I think I am now afraid of you :)

Ha! No man I wish. Everyone has desires and impulses that are selfish and need to be controlled. What I'm saying is that I don't really get angry. For the most part the only thing that makes me really angry is injustice and I tend to be less lenient about it when it's directed at other people than me. Partly through nature and partly through introspection and self training I've come to a point where I just don't have the desire to lash out in anger and I don't really hold grudges. Part of my motivation in that is selfish too because I want to be happy and I believe that anger (and especially long standing anger like when you hold a grudge) is the poison of the heart. It's ultimately self destructive and you tend to hurt yourself more than the target of your anger.

Whoa! That's not evil? You just stated you don't think like that then you admit you do. It's really easy to let that slide on your own personal moral meter when it's not your "choice" to kill that person. But with the fact that you agree that it is ok to kill someone for certain actions deemed by the masses to be "wrong" is really rather hypocritical.

I stated that I don't get impulses to hurt people out of anger. I am however in no way a pacifist and I believe that life is a gift and a privilege and if you abuse it too much you deserve to have it taken away from you. I think the easiest way to prove that point would be to choose an extreme example say a mass murderer like Hitler. I think most people would agree that someone like that doesn't deserve to live. After that it's a matter of degrees. Does someone who commits premeditated murder deserve to die? For the most part I would say yes. What about someone who sexually molests children? Again I think so. What about a rapist? I think yes there too. Some crimes are simply inexcusable and I don't think the people who choose to commit them deserve to simply be sent to indefinite time out. If I were in the position and had the right/responsibility of deciding if these people had to die and putting them to death would I do it? Yes I would. I wouldn't like it but I would do it. Furthermore there are many other issues at hand to consider in looking at a crime and how someone should be punished. After all you can't really have evil without understand of what you are doing and thus intent. But I'm sure I could go on about this subject for a long time. Many things about the way justice works in this world bother me but there's not much I can do about it. As a side point I'm a Christian and so I don't believe that I will ever have the right to decide if someone deserves to live or die and I'm just fine with that.

[Ribky]

Being that I'm going back to school pretty soon for psychology, this whole thread is freaking awesome.

As far as the moral aspects of BTW... I was rooting for Vader through the whole damn trilogy, so my opinion on morals is kind of a moot point. But quite honestly I find nothing morally wrong with any of the activities that BTW allows or encourages. The tech tree alone is a great mirror of the progression of society as a whole (in terms of both technology and the means necessary to achieve it.) The point of almost any game is to win, and almost all of those convey a very strong 'ends justify the means'. From grabbing chickens to use as hang gliders in Legend of Zelda games (in your face PETA) to shooting anything that moves in pretty much any FPS, every game holds some activity that could be judged as 'morally wrong'. You also have to remember that morals, just like religion, political affiliation (example, don't turn this into a political debate), sports team preference, etc. are all matters of opinion.

The real problem you should be addressing as a player is, does the message conveyed in this game affect who I am and am I having fun. If you start to, in real life, shove wolves in your basement and collect their shit, then this is probably not the mod for you. In fact, seek psychological help immediately. If you are having fun, then why worry about it. But, if it truly is affecting your personal life or ideals, then you should probably stop playing. Now that we're getting into occult stuff, enjoy it. Use it as a learning experience into a subject that you probably have avoided due to 'moral dilemmas'. The worst that could happen (unless you are the aforementioned type who need the assistance of mental health professionals) is that you will learn more about something and not like it, and then you have gained knowledge and lost nothing.

I'm going to stop rambling and take my pills now. Plus the wolves in my basement need to be fed, they keep whining and it's distracting me from truly having a point to all this.

[FlowerChild]

The worst that could happen (unless you are the aforementioned type who need the assistance of mental health professionals) is that you will learn more about something and not like it, and then you have gained knowledge and lost nothing.

Well, that, and the tentacles. I assume you haven't gotten to that point in the tech-tree yet though, as otherwise you wouldn't be capable of writing the above.

[FlowerChild]

Ha! No man I wish. Everyone has desires and impulses that are selfish and need to be controlled. What I'm saying is that I don't really get angry. For the most part the only thing that makes me really angry is injustice and I tend to be less lenient about it when it's directed at other people than me. Partly through nature and partly through introspection and self training I've come to a point where I just don't have the desire to lash out in anger and I don't really hold grudges. Part of my motivation in that is selfish too because I want to be happy and I believe that anger (and especially long standing anger like when you hold a grudge) is the poison of the heart. It's ultimately self destructive and you tend to hurt yourself more than the target of your anger.

See, I view anger and other "negative" emotions as being an important part of being human, and of motivating change. Without recognition of the things that are making you unhappy, positive change is far less likely to occur.

To me, training oneself not to feel such things, and not to express them, amounts to repression, which is inherently unhealthy and destructive in the long term.

[morvelaira]

I have to agree with the above. All the emotions that humans feel, we experience for a variety of reasons, and many of them have good, deep reasons. Therefore, there are no negative emotions, merely negative consequences to letting yourself be ruled by them. Let yourself feel the anger, the hurt, and the pain. Don't act on them, though. Acting on reason is the wiser course, and does not invalidate the emotion felt.

Of course, the above is easier said than done... but it is what I believe everyone should aim for.

[Ethinolicbob]

If you start to, in real life, shove wolves in your basement and collect their shit, then this is probably not the mod for you. In fact, seek psychological help immediately.

So the fact that they're not in the basement means I don't need help?

[TheAnarchitect]

::Edit:: You know what, never mind. This post was kinda off topic, and no one here really asked about or needs to know how my inner monologue functions. It doesn't add anything to the discussion. Apologies. If it weren't late and I weren't tired, I probably would have thought better before posting.

[FlowerChild]

I have to agree with the above. All the emotions that humans feel, we experience for a variety of reasons, and many of them have good, deep reasons. Therefore, there are no negative emotions, merely negative consequences to letting yourself be ruled by them. Let yourself feel the anger, the hurt, and the pain. Don't act on them, though. Acting on reason is the wiser course, and does not invalidate the emotion felt.

Of course, the above is easier said than done... but it is what I believe everyone should aim for.

The problem being, that there is no purely rational justification for doing anything at all.

The desire to live itself is inherently emotional. A purely rational creature is a rock.

Taking excessive action based on any emotion (positive or negative) will have negative consequences, but I don't think aspiring to taking none at all based on them is productive either.

[morvelaira]

You said what I meant to. I did not say it very well.

[Extreme Boyheat]

[Games are a medium that revolve around player interaction and choices, NOT linear story

A man after my own heart.

[tedium]

i can't join this conversation without becoming political or speaking hate against religion... i've tried so many times but what you're talking about touches too closely on modern life. goddamnit!

[Ribky]

Well, that, and the tentacles. I assume you haven't gotten to that point in the tech-tree yet though, as otherwise you wouldn't be capable of writing the above.

Holy crap... something in the tech tree that hasn't been spoiled! It's gotta be Nether Groth on SFS blocks... I'll find those tentacles so help me.

So the fact that they're not in the basement means I don't need help?

Correct.

[Blazara]

On the topic of anger: I think it may be the most useful (if bordering primitive) emotion that humans contain the capacity to express: Anger, outright blinding fury allows our bodies to perform physical feats far beyond our usual capabilities. I am still somebody that believes we should not desert the value of physical prowess / power over others.

To those that argue "Yes but we're evolved, intelligence is our best weapon!" Boo you. I agree it's a fantastic advantage and is very useful so long as we live in large groups. But if you take yourself out of that mentality and imagine that we do not live in our current structured, "peaceful" groups, the strongest survives.

We are all of the same species, so intelligence is fairly similar. This is not a Neanderthal Vs Homo Sapien sort of an affair. It would be man vs man. Yes some may be more intelligent than others, but a knowledge of nuclear physics won't assist you as your rival is sinking his teeth into your throat... (Yes that is how I would fight, our teeth make good weapons.... We should use them more ;) )