Philosophical ramblings (Was: My single problem with BTW.)

[FlowerChild]

I suppose that that depends on how you define dark side... Are you implying that all people sometimes want to do acts of evil?

If provided with incentive...definitely.

[DumbassTurtle]

I think at this point it's inevitable that the term "catharsis" appear in this conversation as well.

All humans have a dark side. Expressing that within a safe environment like a game can actually be healthy and beneficial in the long run if it serves as an outlet for those desires.

I just got done catching up on this thread and was going to make this exact point. Damn ninja! :P

I suppose that that depends on how you define dark side... Are you implying that all people sometimes want to do acts of evil?

Of course, how many times while driving you just wish the asshole who cut you off would run off the road, that your irritating and useless boss would just die of a heart attack, or any of those little dark thoughts that go on in your mind when someone or thing makes you mad/scared/whatever. I really wish people wouldn't pretend to not have this in them, honestly I wonder if our lack of outlets for these undesirable thoughts in our minds hasn't contributed to people just snapping and going off. I like having a release for all of that miasma in my head that doesn't have real life consequences, and it also gives me the ability to learn how to better control that dark side in real life. And it's also a good way to examine our humanity and what it really means to be a predator with an advanced brain.

[FlowerChild]

Of course, how many times while driving you just wish the asshole who cut you off would run off the road, that your irritating and useless boss would just die of a heart attack, or any of those little dark thoughts that go on in your mind when someone or thing makes you mad/scared/whatever. I really wish people wouldn't pretend to not have this in them, honestly I wonder if our lack of outlets for these undesirable thoughts in our minds hasn't contributed to people just snapping and going off. I like having a release for all of that miasma in my head that doesn't have real life consequences, and it also gives me the ability to learn how to better control that dark side in real life. And it's also a good way to examine our humanity and what it really means to be a predator with an advanced brain.

Exactly. One of the reasons I got so into drumming for example, was that I found pounding away on inanimate objects for extended periods to be a huge release of aggression.

Obviously, I enjoy just playing as well, but it was an unanticipated side-effect that I always found myself a lot less stressed after a good practice session. The desires themselves aren't bad, and can actually be channeled towards extremely constructive outlets.

[Sarudak]

Of course, how many times while driving you just wish the asshole who cut you off would run off the road, that your irritating and useless boss would just die of a heart attack, or any of those little dark thoughts that go on in your mind when someone or thing makes you mad/scared/whatever. I really wish people wouldn't pretend to not have this in them, honestly I wonder if our lack of outlets for these undesirable thoughts in our minds hasn't contributed to people just snapping and going off. I like having a release for all of that miasma in my head that doesn't have real life consequences, and it also gives me the ability to learn how to better control that dark side in real life. And it's also a good way to examine our humanity and what it really means to be a predator with an advanced brain.

I've honestly never had thoughts like that about people especially not for anything like cutting me off or being a terrible boss (and I did have a terrible boss at the place I was working at before). I have thought that some people deserve to die for their actions but I think there is a certain point at which justice demands putting someone to death and that's in no way evil or dark.

[Blazara]

They are growing meat in vats somewhere... I don't recall the location.

Anywho, I express my sadistic desire to an immortal singular dictator of the galaxy by simply accepting and relishing in what I am when playing BetterThanWolves and indeed in real life. I can live with the knowledge that I'm a good survivor as I would morally object to very few things if push came to shove... For example, if we were in the late stone age / early bronze age, before the dawn of large civilizations: My tribe sees another tribe with a brand new weapon. That weapon looks really damn sweet and they're asleep right now. We could approach them in the morning and attempt to make a trade. Or we could butcher them as they sleep and gain all of their possessions, rather than the ones we desperately want whilst losing some of our own. I know I would certainly have to think that one through very thoroughly.

The thought process that runs through my head when collecting my first animals for instance:

"I could bring you home to join your two other cow buddies. But hey, I'm pretty damn hungry, and look at that! A furnace in my inventory. Good day Senior cow."

An alternate scenario based on mood / little later on down the line however: "Look a cow! I don't really need any more meat or cows, but you're bloody annoying... I could leave you here to contribute to the natural scenery in which I am trying to immerse myself. Or alternately I could punch you to death to listen to the noise you make when you die. Hmmm.... " This scenario then ends one of two ways... I'm sure you can gather those for yourself.

[TheAnarchitect]

Catharsis. Ah yes. The idea that engaging in questionable behavior in a safe environment allows you to "get it out of your system."I must admit I don't know what the current state of psychological research is. But I do recall that when I lastseriously studied psych 8 years ago, the research was suggesting that there was no such actual effect. Instead, people who engaged in unacceptable behavior in a safe environment habituated to it, and were more likely to repeat the same behavior outside the defined safe haven. So Catharsis is, most likely, just another one of those bullshit self-justifications we use for being evil.

Frankly, my playstyle is to not do anything that I wouldn't do in a similar situation IRL. And for that reason, I don't play first person shooters or other sociopathy simulators like GTA. I really enjoy finding ways to get around "required" sociopathy in the games I do play, such as my humane wolf dung farm. And I'm really looking forward to trying to play multi-player anarchy as a cooperative game. I love the moral iffiness of the main tech tree, and FC's take on real world progress. Flowerchild, remember when you wanted to hug me when I said "good design requires constraints"? Well reading you say that our modern society is built on moral shortcuts and forgotten atrocities makes me feel the same way towards you. I simply don't hear this acknowledged enough.

This whole discussion reminds me of how I came to grips with being a carnivore. "If I'm gonna eat meat or use leather, I'm gonna have to confront the whole process," I said. Killing and butchering a living thing with my own hands is one of the most traumatizing memories I have. But that meat was delicious and the skin made a great wallet.

[FlowerChild]

Catharsis. Ah yes. The idea that engaging in questionable behavior in a safe environment allows you to "get it out of your system."I must admit I don't know what the current state of psychological research is. But I do recall that when I lastseriously studied psych 8 years ago, the research was suggesting that there was no such actual effect. Instead, people who engaged in unacceptable behavior in a safe environment habituated to it, and were more likely to repeat the same behavior outside the defined safe haven. So Catharsis is, most likely, just another one of those bullshit self-justifications we use for being evil.

I think that is complete and utter hooey man. Yes, it can definitely be taken too far, especially if it starts getting into the masturbatory obsession stage. Creeps will be creeps.

However, the underlying concept of channeling negative emotions towards safer or more constructive pursuits is pretty much a necessity for survival within modern society. We can no longer effectively function by completely embracing our animal nature and going feral, but it's still very much there.

And I wanted to give you a return hug on the hunting and killing to own it morally man. I've felt much the same way most of my life, and that's another item on my bucket-list ;)

[FlowerChild]

I've honestly never had thoughts like that about people especially not for anything like cutting me off or being a terrible boss (and I did have a terrible boss at the place I was working at before). I have thought that some people deserve to die for their actions but I think there is a certain point at which justice demands putting someone to death and that's in no way evil or dark.

Ok, so wait...you're saying that your every desire and impulse is rational and morally justifiable at all times?

Dude, I think I am now afraid of you :)

[Vogias]

Wait... Morally opposed to recycling? This I need to hear!

Lol! Ok, here's my personal warped view on recycling (by individuals mind you...I support industrial recycling):

I view recycling as what I refer to as a "moral placebo". People do it not because it has any significant impact on the ecological disaster that we're heading towards, but rather because it makes them feel like they're absolved of their contribution to it because they sort their trash into different bins. I view moral placebos as being dangerous, as when people take them, instead of allowing themselves to get annoyed enough with an issue to actually do something significant about it, they just take their sugar pill, puff out their chest and feel proud about "doing the right thing", and then happily ignore the larger issues.

I also think most recycling initiatives are geared more towards distracting people from the real problems in this regard, such as industrial pollution and our dependence on fossil fuels, by people that have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo in those areas. If you keep people busy enough with trivial tasks which they think are responsible for an issue, they'll be less likely to look into the real causes behind it.

So, overall, I consider it both a personal placebo, and a smoke-screen. I refuse to engage in one, and object to being subjected to the other. I'd personally rather feel increasingly uncomfortable about contributing to the destruction of our environment, than ease my conscience by doing something that I know has no real impact.

I agree. It's an issue that got me in fights many times in my life. People think that recycling is a helping hand to the planet... yeah... a hand engineered by profiteers who just want to earn more out of thin air in my opinion. By the way FlowerChild, I pick this opportunity to say how much I like your work and ideas. Making a mod is ok but making a balanced mod... that is hard dude. Thank you and I hope I'll follow your steps soon(-ish) since I'm off to start a programming school and want to practice on MC.

Anyway, back to the subject. "Devil, hell, inferno (Dante's or not)" was already in the game by its original creators. The nether... when I first heard that name I was like "what magical dimension will this be? Would it be THAT magical that cubes become spheres and steve transforms from a forever-alone to a family guy?!" and then.... I just saw plain old hell with a twist (PIGmen... PIG....men...... damn!). You know, anything bad in this world could be named as "candy, sweet, pretty" or something... and that bad thing would simply transform into a more... innocent thing. I'm indulged to mention an example... SMOKING! It's not called "inhale burned nicotine which is a lethal drug" (not to mention tar and many more substances), it's called simple-plain smoking. This is an example of many more cases in our world.

Anyway, that is my opinion. Good words make things sound better than they really are and thus occurs the opposite too. Do not be intimidated by "names" in a digital world. It's a game, it's not real, it's for satisfactory reasons out there. It doesn't satisfy you? Drop it. But do not drop it just cause of the naming thing... It's a waste since many more things that you already like are badder than their name sounds.

[Caboose]

I think that is complete and utter hooey man. Yes, it can definitely be taken too far, especially if it starts getting into the masturbatory obsession stage. Creeps will be creeps.

However, the underlying concept of channeling negative emotions towards safer or more constructive pursuits is pretty much a necessity for survival within modern society. We can no longer effectively function by completely embracing our animal nature and going feral, but it's still very much there.

And I wanted to give you a return hug on the hunting and killing to own it morally man. I've felt much the same way most of my life, and that's another item on my bucket-list ;)

Well, I believe there's a difference between Catharsis and Sublimation, Catharsis is venting negative emotions with violent if harmless acts, and Sublimation is what you're talking about FC, taking negative emotions and channeling them into constructive behavior.

[FlowerChild]

Well, I believe there's a difference between Catharsis and Sublimation, Catharsis is venting negative emotions with violent if harmless acts, and Sublimation is what you're talking about FC, taking negative emotions and channeling them into constructive behavior.

Fair enough. I tend to think of them much as the same thing, with one just being more productive than the other. I think the element of expelling "negative" emotions is common between them.

I still can't figure out a proper label for the habitual use of colored fonts though.

EDIT: Although for some reason, it reminds me of this...

[XantyZon]

The people that I worry about the most are the ones that don't acknowledge their dark side. They push this side of their personality so far in to the back of their mind that they can't see it so when it does emerge it ends up overwhelming them and they have no defense against it. These people end up in watch towers with sniper rifles or driving thier bus through a playground. Having an outlet is important but not a mindless outlet. The key thing is thinking about who you are and what it means to you.

I see you ninja'd me FC wile i was typing this.

[TheAnarchitect]

I think that is complete and utter hooey man. Yes, it can definitely be taken too far, especially if it starts getting into the masturbatory obsession stage. Creeps will be creeps.

However, the underlying concept of channeling negative emotions towards safer or more constructive pursuits is pretty much a necessity for survival within modern society. We can no longer effectively function by completely embracing our animal nature and going feral, but it's still very much there.

I don't know man, we all have a very active inner life but most of it is justification not motivation. I think the experience of catharsis may be the product of different underlying mental processes. Sort of like how certain "forces" don't really exist, but are a function of other physical principles in specific conditions. Also, I tend to trust the results of multiple double-blind studies over my own intuition.

But unless you both a) want to continue the discussion and b) would be moved by me finding and quoting the relevant research, I'll leave it here.

[FlowerChild]

I don't know man, we all have a very active inner life but most of it is justification not motivation. I think the experience of catharsis may be the product of different underlying mental processes. Sort of like how certain "forces" don't really exist, but are a function of other physical principles in specific conditions. Also, I tend to trust the results of multiple double-blind studies over my own intuition.

But unless you both a) want to continue the discussion and b) would be moved by me finding and quoting the relevant research, I'll leave it here.

Nah man, I believe that your reference to the research is correct, I just don't trust such research in general :)

To me it's as simple as deciding to punch a wall instead of punching a person. Yes, neither is particularly desirable, but if you can hold off the desire to do the latter, by doing the former, more power to you. I've seen enough practical applications of that in life that no amount of research would convince me that isn't functioning as a catharsis.

[DumbassTurtle]

I've honestly never had thoughts like that about people especially not for anything like cutting me off or being a terrible boss (and I did have a terrible boss at the place I was working at before). I have thought that some people deserve to die for their actions but I think there is a certain point at which justice demands putting someone to death and that's in no way evil or dark.

Whoa! That's not evil? You just stated you don't think like that then you admit you do. It's really easy to let that slide on your own personal moral meter when it's not your "choice" to kill that person. But with the fact that you agree that it is ok to kill someone for certain actions deemed by the masses to be "wrong" is really rather hypocritical.

[morvelaira]

God. Deep psychological discussions like this make me want to bring up HPMOR. At times like this, it makes me glad I chose the Lawful Neutral alignment.

As for those little evil thoughts you have inside your head... I have spent a lot of time working very, very, very hard at mentally training myself away from that. The last time I had one of those thoughts, I got my wish - much to my chagrin. Even with the no-good boss I've had for three years now, who is the root of me quitting my job finally, I don't sit there and say "I wish he'd have another heart attack and leave us alone." I instead wish he'd just have a very happy retirement.

Not letting those thoughts through doesn't mean I like everyone. It doesn't mean I have good opinion of everyone. But I can't really wish ill on anyone either. At best I can wish for enough hardship to come their way for them to learn the error of their ways, or for them to simply leave me alone.

[FlowerChild]

Every time I think about this stuff I'm reminded of an old Cheers episode that I saw many years ago.

Woody is going on a long ramble about how every time something is bothering him, he imagines himself grabbing hold of it, crunching it into a small ball and then pushing it deep down into himself.

The scene ends with I think Sam just saying "tick...tick...tick..."

I just spent the last half hour trying to find it on Youtube with no luck so I could post it here. If anyone else comes across it, there will be cake :)

Whoa! That's not evil? You just stated you don't think like that then you admit you do. It's really easy to let that slide on your own personal moral meter when it's not your "choice" to kill that person. But with the fact that you agree that it is ok to kill someone for certain actions deemed by the masses to be "wrong" is really rather hypocritical.

Be "nice" please. So far we've managed to keep this thread fairly civilized. Calling someone a hypocrite...well, "them be fighting words".

[DumbassTurtle]

Be "nice" please. So far we've managed to keep this thread fairly civilized. Calling someone a hypocrite...well, "them be fighting words".

Apologies I was at a loss for a word that expressed what I was trying to get across.

[Dirdle]

To me it's as simple as deciding to punch a wall instead of punching a person. Yes, neither is particularly desirable, but if you can hold off the desire to do the latter, by doing the former, more power to you. I've seen enough practical applications of that in life that no amount of research would convince me that isn't functioning as a catharsis.

Then you are wrong as a matter of simple fact. This abstract is more than adequate as an explanation. The exact behaviour you describe - punching a thing not a person - leads to increased anger in the long run.

"But I don't trust the research." Then you've lost a lot of at least my respect, which shouldn't be worth much to you, but obviously means a lot to me. Not trusting scientific research as and when suits your worldview to do so is incredibly arrogant; not trusting scientific research ever is clearly not what you are doing, being as you use all the modern technologies that rely on it. Not trusting only psychology research is an outdated position; psychology has been doing very well at pulling itself into shape as a science. I say that as a physics undergrad, and we have a motivation to maintain our superiority complex.

Not wanting to be right is reckless. That seems obvious.

"But it varies between people. Surely catharsis works for some people." Yes, but everyone feels like it works for them. The difficult part of being human is dealing with the fact that you're not a straight-thinking homunculus living inside a shell of biases and misperceptions and emotional clouding, you are that mess of tangled irrational thinking. Certainly there are people for whom venting works, but we cannot rely on those people to self-report it. That is, we cannot rely on ourselves to judge, even for ourselves, if hitting a bag of potatoes is better than doing nothing as a means of controlling our anger.

Wow that post was bilious. Maybe I should have ruminated instead.

[matty79321]

Hehe...boy bands offend me as well :)

For further offense: I listen to heavy metal, played copious amounts of D&D as a kid, have been reading books on the occult since I was a teenager, have engaged in premarital sex and adultery on multiple occasions, and don't recycle.

By some standards, you guys are therefore finding entertainment in the creation of a spawn of Satan. <wags finger disapprovingly>

To put the cherry on the cake, I will now post the following link, as it's one of my favorite tunes:

Damn copyright infringement. Oh well, at least I have it on my phone/grooveshark playlists.

[destineternel]

Fc, I believe the cheers quote was,

"Woody: I don't know, Dr. Crane. Haven't you ever thought that it's kind of tough on them - doing all that counseling stuff? I mean I was raised to believe that if you have a problem, you lock it away in a secret place. You keep it bottled up good and tight. And if it gets full in there, you just keep forcing the pain down and clamping it in.
Frasier: Good advice, Woody. Tick... tick... tick." -

Season 9 Episode 18 "Sam Time Next Year"

have yet to find a clip.

[XantyZon]

Every time I think about this stuff I'm reminded of an old Cheers episode that I saw many years ago.

Woody is going on a long ramble about how every time something is bothering him, he imagines himself grabbing hold of it, crunching it into a small ball and then pushing it deep down into himself.

The scene ends with I think Sam just saying "tick...tick...tick..."

I just spent the last half hour trying to find it on Youtube with no luck so I could post it here. If anyone else comes across it, there will be cake :)

I couldn't find it on Youtube but this is the info
Cheers - Season 9, Episode 18
"Woody: I don't know, Dr. Crane. Haven't you ever thought that it's kind of tough on them - doing all that counseling stuff? I mean I was raised to believe that if you have a problem, you lock it away in a secret place. You keep it bottled up good and tight. And if it gets full in there, you just keep forcing the pain down and clamping it in.
Frasier: Good advice, Woody. Tick... tick... tick."



edit; dang ninja'd

[Rianaru]

The nature of people and of any experiment that would attempt to quantify venting means that it would be extremely difficult to provide accurate results, no matter how well psychology is advancing as a science.

[FlowerChild]

"But I don't trust the research." Then you've lost a lot of at least my respect, which shouldn't be worth much to you, but obviously means a lot to me. Not trusting scientific research as and when suits your worldview to do so is incredibly arrogant; not trusting scientific research ever is clearly not what you are doing, being as you use all the modern technologies that rely on it. Not trusting only psychology research is an outdated position; psychology has been doing very well at pulling itself into shape as a science. I say that as a physics undergrad, and we have a motivation to maintain our superiority complex.

9 times out of 10 when I take a close look at a psychological study, I spot flaws in the methods applied. Either there's an inherent bias on the part of the researcher attempting the study and trying to elicit particular results through leading questions, there are significant environmental factors present (sometimes the subjects even just being aware that it's a study) that stand a good chance of tainting the results, or what have you. I can't even remember the last time I looked at one where I truly thought the experiment was sufficiently controlled to be considered scientific by any standard that would be applied to other branches of science.

I have a great deal of interest in psychology, and respect for its study. HOWEVER, I don't think that experimental psychology, especially as it is applied to humans, is particularly effective in getting clear results. Given that, I tend to have a lot more faith in my own personal observations and experiences with regards to human nature.

So yeah man, you can keep your respect (and keep it in a dark moist place). Perhaps asking "why" would have been a better approach than immediately going on the attack?

"Woody: I don't know, Dr. Crane. Haven't you ever thought that it's kind of tough on them - doing all that counseling stuff? I mean I was raised to believe that if you have a problem, you lock it away in a secret place. You keep it bottled up good and tight. And if it gets full in there, you just keep forcing the pain down and clamping it in.
Frasier: Good advice, Woody. Tick... tick... tick."

That's the one exactly. I think I saw it when it first aired though, and haven't seen it since, so I was a little fuzzy on the details, but the overall impression of it always stayed with me :)

[jorgebonafe]

I just spent the last half hour trying to find it on Youtube with no luck so I could post it here. If anyone else comes across it, there will be cake :)

There it is, jump to about 5:30

No. -Flower

Yey, Cake!