Philosophical ramblings (Was: My single problem with BTW.)

[RezDev]

Wow, so many topics...my thoughts are all criss-crossed amongst them... :)

I, personally, love the direction this mod is taking for a good number of reasons, but the one relevant to this thread is the inclusion of real elements of the occult into the Minecraft/BtW magical system.

The reason for this is fairly simple: there are those of us who know about these things, and seeing some of these elements grabs us and makes us think, "this guy knows," and it creates a connection that aids in the suspension of disbelief and the immersion in the game-world by adding a small element of realism and a bit of satisfaction by decoding a hidden reference.

Could FC have created an entirely new, BtW-specific system of magic with its own symbols and connotations? Sure, but then the familiarity that is present in real-world connotations would be lost, and it would feel artificial, in a way, plus he would then have to figure out a way to explain those new symbols and their meanings to us the players in some way that is consistent with his general "let-the-players-figure-it-out" design philosophy, which may or may not be the easiest thing to do or the most effective use of development time.

Plus, it gives him a new area to develop in the terms of in-game systems. Given that ritual magic is usually fairly complicated in terms of having the right things in the right places at the right times, it falls in line with the general theme of the mod to have to create huge magical/alchemical contraptions with certain kinds of design restraints in order to do certain kinds of things in the game-world (whatever those things may be).

In a certain way, it reminds me of the old Ultima games (specifically VI, VII, and VIII), where there was a more complex magical system involving reagent-based spellcasting and ritual magic, and I loved those games, so the possibility of this is quite exciting to me.

Of course, these are just my random thoughts on the matter, as I have no idea what FC ultimately plans to do with this, just that the possibilities are manifold, and I can only just sit back and enjoy the ride.

With a giant brain-boner, of course.

[natchu96]

I like separating religion from occultish-magic stuff, personally. The way occult things work systematically in most games, it's almost a science (just a science that isn't very nice to people. And wolves) :D



. . . my first post is in a religious debate? wat ?!?

That's my point, though. You can't really seperate religion from occultish-magic stuff. The occultists I know (Ok, I know about 4) count their studies as their religious belief. A religion is just a set of beliefs over a range of topics that try to guide people while providing some sort of understanding of the world (and/or universe) in which we live. In my mind, even science is a form of religion.

EDIT: Spelling and Grammar. I've not had my coffee yet ...

The stuff people do with the actual magic itself (in fiction), though, which is what most of the occult stuff in BTW is, has next to nothing to do with the actual beliefs in said religion. Thinking along the lines of that TVTropes (will ruin your life) page named "Religion is Magic". And a dash of the other page named Holy Hand Grenade.


I advise you not to look up those TVTropes pages if you value your personal time.

[Blazara]

Hehe...boy bands offend me as well :)

have engaged in premarital sex and adultery on multiple occasions -

There is nothing wrong with the former! Unless of course you're a god botherer....

Any who, the direction of the mod makes me smile: I don't know if this is my smug atheist mind enjoying those with faith squirm with uncertainty at the inclusion of something *a little*taboo into the mod or whether it's the fact that I'm genuinely now interested in the occult. Literally, seeing the discussions (mainly on MCF) regarding the latest features made me google "occult" and start reading like a beast.

The joys of atheism / living in a place where most people are atheist has never felt so sweet: religion makes taking offence far too regular ;)

BTW - Broadening horizons since Beta 1.4

In a response to the recycling front, here's a smashing example. The Island I live on, is supposedly "too good" at recycling, to the point that we now import rubbish from main land Britain to deal with.... And I'm still not allowed to throw shit in a black bin bag.

[Eriottosan]

The stuff people do with the actual magic itself (in fiction), though, which is what most of the occult stuff in BTW is, has next to nothing to do with the actual beliefs in said religion. Thinking along the lines of that TVTropes (will ruin your life) page named "Religion is Magic". And a dash of the other page named Holy Hand Grenade.


I advise you not to look up those TVTropes pages if you value your personal time.

Fair enough, I see your point now. I thought you were talking generally, hence the confusion (:.

[natchu96]

Hehe...boy bands offend me as well :)

have engaged in premarital sex and adultery on multiple occasions -

There is nothing wrong with the former! Unless of course you're a god botherer....

Any who, the direction of the mod makes me smile: I don't know if this is my smug atheist mind enjoying those with faith squirm with uncertainty at the inclusion of something *a little*taboo into the mod or whether it's the fact that I'm genuinely now interested in the occult. Literally, seeing the discussions (mainly on MCF) regarding the latest features made me google "occult" and start reading like a beast.

The joys of atheism / living in a place where most people are atheist has never felt so sweet: religion makes taking offence far too regular ;)

BTW - Broadening horizons since Beta 1.4

In a response to the recycling front, here's a smashing example. The Island I live on, is supposedly "too good" at recycling, to the point that we now import rubbish from main land Britain to deal with.... And I'm still not allowed to throw shit in a black bin bag.

Agree with the atheist part to some degree. IIRC, Christianity wasn't supposed to offend anyone or take offense to anything, to some degree. How many wars can you think of that were allegedly fought "In the name of God"?

God told them to stop. People keep justifying violence by bending their own religions' rules. Obviously people don't really deserve the advice.

Religion is weird like that.

[Blazara]

Spoilered for those with religion that may find anti religious statements offensive.

Spoiler

Show

"Told them to stop"

So is that why we had a succession of Pope's telling European Christians to go and kill as many Muslims as they could? Pope's are supposedly "chosen" by "god" are they not? Is that also why bishops used to go into battle with clubs so that they could kill people without drawing blood?

Religion is bloody stupid is what it is. Food for the naive / control for the cattle. No matter how much I frown upon the fundamentals and teachings of Christianity, it has served it's purpose for controlling populations.

[Mason11987]

Well this has certainly fell into the "don't talk about religion" category, I'd recommend holding back due to the inevitable closing of this thread.

[muggsbud]

Spoilered for those with religion that may find anti religious statements offensive.

that is a sociological thing. fundamental religious beliefs keep people from looting and killing like in anarchy vanilla MC. you know, like the golden rule and the ten commandments.

No, it's the more in depth beliefs that control people. so and so is inherently evil and vile because they believe such and such, so we much host a crusade against them.

edit: but this is getting off topic. I'm ok with where the mod is heading as long as it doesn't get to visurreal (spelling?). like having ceremonies and all that.

[sargunv]

Enough of the religious discussion guys.

[RaustBlackDragon]

I read the first page and was about to post my two cents on this issue when I saw that the last page seemed to have gone off topic. However, the original point is still something I would like to share my thoughts on, so I thought I'd do so:

A lot of people just don't like being bad guys when playing games. I'm one such person.

Yes, it's just a game, but even in games, when you remove the factor of actual sentient creatures suffering from your actions, it's still not what I particularly enjoy. My wolfaboo status isn't the only reason why I don't keep my wolf in a dark room fed by a timer. Even now, when the wolves creep me out, I still don't enjoy that kind of behavior. I don't like factory-farming, I don't like killing villagers, and I don't like factory-farming villagers.

So when a few of these recently became mandatory in order to get certain things out of the mod, that made me very sad, because it was a first for the mod. Until then, I didn't have to be outright cruel to peaceful creatures in order to get certain items.

So in summary, yes it's just a game, but that doesn't automatically make pretend suffering fun or even bearable for everybody.

[Eriottosan]

Enough of the religious discussion guys.

Hear, hear. I feel bad for making the religion comment, as it seems to have caused a lot of off-topicness when that was not my intention. Rather, I had hoped to expand upon Donzaffi's comment that historically, man is always the bad guy, and use that to illustrate the fact that Steve's occult studies does not make him a "devil-worshiper".

So in summary, yes it's just a game, but that doesn't automatically make pretend suffering fun or even bearable for everybody.

This is true, and it is sad that you feel that way. But I doubt BTW would be where it was today if it wasn't controversial.

[RaustBlackDragon]

So in summary, yes it's just a game, but that doesn't automatically make pretend suffering fun or even bearable for everybody.

This is true, and it is sad that you feel that way. But I doubt BTW would be where it was today if it wasn't controversial.

I totally agree, the main issue is that it's now become mandatory for the first time. Making Companion cubes, wearing gimp suits, powering cake, all of these things are optional little bonus features for people who like that sort of thing, and to troll people who get upset by their mere existence. They don't bother me because I don't HAVE to touch them to enjoy the mod. But now I have to factory-farm villagers to get a looting enchantment, I have to factory-farm chickens for the feather fall enchantment... It's quite different.

[Whisp]

They don't bother me because I don't HAVE to touch them to enjoy the mod. But now I have to factory-farm villagers to get a looting enchantment, I have to factory-farm chickens for the feather fall enchantment... It's quite different.

You still don't HAVE to do any of those things. You can still enchant your gold, iron or diamond tools with the vanilla enchanter or just use steel tools without enchanting.
Even the rebreathing for steel armor is not mandatory, it just makes working underwater much more convenient. It's simply a side branch that is not necessary for playing through the tech tree.

[Calcifire3691]

back on topic: I personally have no problem with the occult stuff, for one thing, I can tell the difference between reality and fantasy, it's like those people who cry because we mistreat wolves.

even if we ended up doing REALLY questionable stuff, I'd just shrug and say "meh, a bit tasteless.... I wonder how many people this has offended?" and then grab some popcorn and check the resulting shitstorm on MCF :P

[Luxweaver2]

Later, when I introduced the gimp-suit, others left the mod because "I was getting weird", I assume because they weren't comfortable with the subtle sexual connotations associated with it.

i just wanted to point out the sexual connotations are in no way subtle.

[Blazara]

I think the controversy of BTW is what attracts so many. It's one of those mods that's a bit ballsy, indirectly (and directly) tackling issues that people are either a little squeamish about, or simply repulsed by. I think that although BTW may lose some of it's audience in the current direction in which it's heading, I don't think the losses will be too large nor will the integrity of the mod be damaged. My character preference changes by game and situation, but with Minecraft, everything looks so happy that a little bit of immorality sort of balances it out. I think we're all here because we appreciate the mod and Flower's work.

Similarly to what Whisp said; there's one piece of advice that springs to mind with me: don't like a certain aspect of the mod? Don't use that part. Yes it may deter your progress or even bring it grinding to a halt, but that doesn't mean you necessarily have to abandon a mod, especially a mod as extensive and open as BTW, just because you don't enjoy/ agree with certain aspects old or new.

[natchu96]

@Blazara (your post before the last one) I never really trusted Popes myself. Any proof that they were chosen in any way? They just kind of pray and vote and hope for the best. And all humans have flaws.


Yeah, lets let off on the religious debate. I run into that everywhere, and most of those are in gaming forums >_> (Humankind just can't let religion go, can they?)

And about being the bad guy, good and evil are subjective to the opinion of the observer. The words literally counter-describe each other. If we go by harming others as the definition of evil, then we're all evil. In every conflict, something has to be lost, and you may not necessarily gain anything from it.

[RaustBlackDragon]

@Blazara (your post before the last one) I never really trusted Popes myself. Any proof that they were chosen in any way? They just kind of pray and vote and hope for the best. And all humans have flaws.


Yeah, lets let off on the religious debate. I run into that everywhere, and most of those are in gaming forums >_> (Humankind just can't let religion go, can they?)

And about being the bad guy, good and evil are subjective to the opinion of the observer. The words literally counter-describe each other. If we go by harming others as the definition of evil, then we're all evil. In every conflict, something has to be lost, and you may not necessarily gain anything from it.

Tip: Never make an off-topic point in a post also asking people to get back on-topic. It's percieved by a lot of people as a trick to get in the last word on an issue while making anybody attempting to contest you look like somebody who can't let a subject go.

Not saying that was your intention, but if you really want people to get back on topic, it's important that you don't invite that perception.

[Blazara]

I think more poignantly, in every gain something has to be lost. In BTW to advance to steel you're constantly sacrificing different items, space, time, sanity. They all fall under the same umbrella.

*EDIT* Calc, I completely agree. I struggle to understand why some people can get so immersed in certain things that they know to be false. I personally think there is nothing wrong with an action in a game so long as you still realise that outside of that world, your actions are "wrong" ;).

[natchu96]

I think more poignantly, in every gain something has to be lost. In BTW to advance to steel you're constantly sacrificing different items, space, time, sanity. They all fall under the same umbrella.

*EDIT* Calc, I completely agree. I struggle to understand why some people can get so immersed in certain things that they know to be false. I personally think there is nothing wrong with an action in a game so long as you still realise that outside of that world, your actions are "wrong" ;).

And if you accidentally leave hellfire dust in a stoked crucible, you won't be gaining much, but you will lose much indeed.

I'm just here to enjoy the game, though. All the FMA in the recent posts I've seen and finishing Fate/Zero is getting to me T_T

[Dirdle]

I'm not so fond of the occult elements for a different reason: occult things don't need to make sense. You can use "magic" to justify just about anything. "The millstone grinds things" makes sense. Objects go in, powders come out. The powders even come out of the sides, not the bottom. Cool. Essentially all of the mechanical power parts of the mod are verisimilar in such a way.

Then you've got soul urns. You can imagine souls being dragged out of the netherrack and stuffed into a earthenware jar, I suppose. It's not completely ridiculous. But then they're used for metallurgy, and block dispensers, and cement, and lovecraftian botany. There's no obvious connection between these things; it just feels like an arbitrary resource bottleneck. Mechanically it's great, of course, building a full-auto soul-factory has been the best part of Minecraft in a long while.

Now we've got even more stuff in the same vein, and it still feels a little bit arbitrary (though also pretty cool and spooky, I must admit). I'm sure some (post-hoc) explanations are possible, but I want to preempt them and say that it doesn't have the same 'click' to it as being able to make predictions about game behaviour.

It IS fun, though >=].

[natchu96]

I'm not so fond of the occult elements for a different reason: occult things don't need to make sense. You can use "magic" to justify just about anything. "The millstone grinds things" makes sense. Objects go in, powders come out. The powders even come out of the sides, not the bottom. Cool. Essentially all of the mechanical power parts of the mod are verisimilar in such a way.

Then you've got soul urns. You can imagine souls being dragged out of the netherrack and stuffed into a earthenware jar, I suppose. It's not completely ridiculous. But then they're used for metallurgy, and block dispensers, and cement, and lovecraftian botany. There's no obvious connection between these things; it just feels like an arbitrary resource bottleneck. Mechanically it's great, of course, building a full-auto soul-factory has been the best part of Minecraft in a long while.

Now we've got even more stuff in the same vein, and it still feels a little bit arbitrary (though also pretty cool and spooky, I must admit). I'm sure some (post-hoc) explanations are possible, but I want to preempt them and say that it doesn't have the same 'click' to it as being able to make predictions about game behaviour.

It IS fun, though >=].

Fiction seems to want to prove that souls make very good power sources and catalysts for things . . .

I mean, we just mentioned FMA.

[nolongerwithyou]

I do not think mod should have satan because satan is evil and god would not like. You will be smite unbeliever!!

[BinoAl]

I do not think mod should have satan because satan is evil and god would not like. You will be smite unbeliever!!

Heh. From the necros in suggestions, I thought "Maybe he's just an idiot", but this confirms that he's just an unoriginal troll

[Sarudak]

Lol! Ok, here's my personal warped view on recycling (by individuals mind you...I support industrial recycling):

I view recycling as what I refer to as a "moral placebo". People do it not because it has any significant impact on the ecological disaster that we're heading towards, but rather because it makes them feel like they're absolved of their contribution to it because they sort their trash into different bins. I view moral placebos as being dangerous, as when people take them, instead of allowing themselves to get annoyed enough with an issue to actually do something significant about it, they just take their sugar pill, puff out their chest and feel proud about "doing the right thing", and then happily ignore the larger issues.

I also think most recycling initiatives are geared more towards distracting people from the real problems in this regard, such as industrial pollution and our dependence on fossil fuels, by people that have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo in those areas. If you keep people busy enough with trivial tasks which they think are responsible for an issue, they'll be less likely to look into the real causes behind it.

So, overall, I consider it both a personal placebo, and a smoke-screen. I refuse to engage in one, and object to being subjected to the other. I'd personally rather feel increasingly uncomfortable about contributing to the destruction of our environment, than ease my conscience by doing something that I know has no real impact.

This is an interesting view. I remember you made a similar point a long time ago when we had a discussion on MCF that I believe revolved around the introduction of the breeding harness and the dark nature of the mod. Personally I do recycle. But I'm also aware that it does very little and I don't really feel that my conscience is assuaged by such actions. *shrugs* Recycling is not going to save the earth. I have greater hope for something like nuclear power. Especially if people can ever get their heads on straight and go back to the LFTR design that they had (mostly) working in the 60s. In the same way that striking oil saved the whales I believe that practical, economical, clean energy can save the environment.