Simplicity vs. Realism Balancing - Ex. Wind Mill

[Yushatak]

First let me preface this by saying I mean in NO way to insult the mod or FlowerChild - both are brilliant. I have A.S. and sometimes come off as egotistical or some such without trying to - if that happens, then please try to understand. :P

I have seen lots and lots of mods and games, and have noticed that there's a line to walk between realism, and the simplification of concepts and gameplay for the sake of ease and fun.

BTW comes close to - and sometimes even totally succeeds at - walking that line, but in several areas it doesn't.

Recipe-wise, there's not much to be confused about - most of them make sense and are fairly straightforward. There are a few tweaks I'd make, such as using Flint and Steel, rather than Flint in the Hibachi recipe, but generally they are very logical and well executed. Confusion comes into play when you start to look at the whole production process that goes into the parts of a recipe.

Example: Wind Mill
It's made of four sails - this is easy. Okay, so how do I get sails? Six pieces of fabric above three wood moulding pieces. Okay - once again, straightforward. Let's look at the fabric first - it's made from 9 hemp fiber, which comes directly from the plant. Okay, that's not too bad. Let's look at the moulding. In order to make moulding, you have to use a saw on a wood block, then use it on the panels that result from that. How do I make a saw? Three iron on top of an amalgam of three gears, two planks, and a belt. Gears are a wood block with four sticks around it, that's not bad. The belt requires eight straps. How do you make straps? You use a piece of tanned leather. You tan the leather by using dung and scoured leather in a cauldron. You get dung from wolves, straightforward. You make a cauldron with a ring of iron around a bone, with the top middle replaced with a bucket of water. Not bad, again, but we're several layers deep now.. Also, the scoured leather - how do I get that? You take normal leather, and put it in a mill stone. Mill stone has a simple recipe - a 3x3 of cleanstone with the bottom middle replaced with a gear. Also, to operate the mill and saw, you'll need at least a hand crank (two sticks in a diagonal, with stone, gear, stone on the bottom).

Let's tally things up here - to get a wind mill, you need to know the following recipes:
- Gear
- Mill Stone
- Hand Crank
- Hemp Fiber
- Scoured Leather
- Tanned Leather
- Cauldron
- Moulding
- Wood Panel
- Saw
- Fabric
- Sail
- Wind Mill
13 recipes to make one item (discluding vanilla things, of course).

"Let's see you do better," I hear you say pre-emptively. Alright - here's how I'd handle the simplification.

Replace Moulding with sticks.

You now only need these recipes:
- Wind Mill
- Sail
- Fabric
- Mill Stone
- Hand Crank
- Hemp Fiber

This has reduced the number of recipes needed to go through down to less than a half. As for the cost, Moulding is 1/4 of a wood block, whereas a stick is made by processing a wood block into FOUR sticks - they are of equal value. Moulding has it's place as decoration, but in recipes, it probably isn't necessary. Sticks make fences, for example, which also come out thick and such, as a precedent.

In vanilla Minecraft there is no Mill Stone, so simple processing is done through vague "Crafting" processes. This includes things like grinding bones into bonemeal. In real life, tasks like this are far easier with a Mill Stone, but could be accomplished with a mortar and Pestle, or even a pair of rocks - a Mill Stone is overkill when you don't need to repeatedly do the task in question. I'd also say that based on this logic and vanilla MC precedent, Hemp->Hemp Fiber should be possible through simple crafting. Perhaps if you use a Mill Stone, it could be more efficient, i.e., two fibers per plant, where crafting might give you one.

If the above tweaks are both used, we can reduce the list of memorized recipes (minimum) to:
- Wind Mill
- Sail
- Fabric
- Hemp Fiber
Four - long way down from thirteen recipes and processes to memorize isn't it? A wind mill isn't the most complicated thing in the world, either.

A minor change that I'd also make is straps.. why have them? They're only used for belts, so why not just process the tanned leather directly into a single belt? For that matter, at the moment Scoured and Tanned leather seem rather unnecessary too - why not just use a leather in the saw recipe?

We could also compare the number of materials required and find that there would be a decrease there, but that could be remedied by tweaking recipes, or ignored, because the Wind Mill doesn't seem to warrant such a high cost anyway (most of that reduction comes in the form of reusable devices that come into play making it, anyway, not the device itself).

Now if it is desirable to keep things the way they are, even in light of my suggestion, it would be better to also modify the original processes to a similar complexity - i.e., require a Mill Stone to grind bones into bonemeal, and so on. Personally I think executing my suggestions (and applying the same logic to other complex recipes in BTW) would make the mod more accessible and make it fit better with the Minecraft world, but consistency would still be an improvement even if it goes in the other direction away from my suggestions.

If you guys have arguments against my thoughts, I am not pigheaded (at least I'd like to think not), and would be glad to hear them.

[Zhil]

Now if it is desirable to keep things the way they are, even in light of my suggestion, it would be better to also modify the original processes to a similar complexity

You're missing the point of the entire mod. The complexity of the recipes was created with the sole purpose of creating a "technology tree". You progress through the items and they act as gateways to the next. That's why the complexer items in the mod require you to have access to all the previous ones.

You are right that it would be preferable to transfer over some of the vanilla stuff to fit in with this tech tree, but FC wants to keep vanilla vanilla.

I have in mind a small project that would just be a mod to pull vanilla recipes into BTW universe to complete the mod. It'd be something only the die hards install, as it would surely mean no other mod would work together with it.

[Stormweaver]

Last I checked, straps are also used for halts, which will be used in future items. There's not much more to say that the previous comment didn't cover, but you have to keep in mind that because this is a technology tree, there are lots of things that, while they may have a limited use now, will gain uses as times goes on. No items will be 'complete' till the mod is complete, with Steve happily mining cheese on the moon.

[Yushatak]

A technology tree implies progress - a windmill or waterwheel both get the job done, but a waterwheel is FAR easier to construct, doesn't require maintenance, can function underground (without digging a nonsense shaft to the sky), and you can place the water wherever you want since Minecraft has such weird water mechanics, meaning there's no placement pros/cons based on your location in relation to flowing water like IRL.

Wind could be calculated on a per-biome, height, and nearness to water/lava/ice/snow/trees basis. Each of these could play a factor in calculating a rough idea of how much wind an area is likely to see, and it would only need to be calculated once (or once every time the chunk loads). As for water, without finite water we'd need to introduce an immovable spring block into the game that would power a water wheel to "regionize" it, though finite water would be far preferable, as larger bodies could be harnessed as infinite, like a dam IRL, to power a waterwheel indefinitely, while underground, etc., you'd have trouble finding a convenient source and depending on depth and location might consider creating a convection current and a vent for wind instead.

Water wheel is made of wood blades, which are made of a slimeball and four planks each. That's so much simpler. :P

If a windmill did work 10x as fast as a waterwheel or something, then it would be different, but AFAIK it does not (not that that makes sense anyway).

In the real world, the pros to a windmill are clean energy that can be utilized in certain regions of flat or mountainous land. In this game, you can use it anywhere as long as it can see the sky, which removes the "regionality". As I said above, the same goes for the waterwheel.

Ideally we could make it so that these items both functioned in different places but did the same job, but as it stands now they are identical, but one is massively difficult to construct while the other is not.

As for straps, I did not see that on the wiki, but yes, that would likely nullify my point.

[Stormweaver]

Windmill can be used in the nether where the waterwheel cannot, and not everyone has luck finding slimes >.>

[walker_boh_65]

A technology tree implies progress - a windmill or waterwheel both get the job done, but a waterwheel is FAR easier to construct, doesn't require maintenance, can function underground, and you can place the water wherever you want since Minecraft has such weird water mechanics, meaning there's no placement pros/cons based on your location in relation to flowing water like IRL.

Water wheel is made of wood blades, which are made of a slimeball and four planks each. That's so much simpler. :P

If a windmill did work 10x as fast as a waterwheel or something, then it would be different, but AFAIK it does not (not that that makes sense anyway).

In the real world, the pros to a windmill are clean energy that can be utilized in certain regions of flat or mountainous land. In this game, you can use it anywhere as long as it can see the sky, which removes the "regionality". As I said above, the same goes for the waterwheel.

Ideally we could make it so that these items both functioned in different places but did the same job, but as it stands now they are identical, but one is massively difficult to construct while the other is not.

As for straps, I did not see that on the wiki, but yes, that would likely nullify my point.

mostly true, but it is the only source of mechanical energy in the nether, and may have other uses latter on, not to mention the fact the it looks much better the a waterwheel (which can also be made using glue)

[Yushatak]

Windmill can be used in the nether where the waterwheel cannot, and not everyone has luck finding slimes >.>

Yeah I am aware of that - it is a small benefit, but not enough to justify the difference. Besides, let's be honest, who gives a damn about the Nether? :P (not many of us, I wager - at least not to the point where you'd build a base with mechanical power there, since you could just travel back to use other things after gathering in the Nether..)

As for the slimes thing, as the above post said, glue is now a substitute. Also a slime chunk finder or mods like the Peaceful pack can really help out with that sort of thing (I realize that's not BTW's business, but I thought I'd point it out..).

[Zhil]

I have never even seen a slime and I've been playing since alpha, so yeah, water wheels require bellows, which is pretty far up the tech tree too.

Access to slime balls makes the water wheel easy to produce, but the glue recipe is just as complex as the windmill.

[FlowerChild]

You really are missing the point with your post man.

First, the criticism of the number of recipes required to get high-value items. As others have pointed out, having to "earn" each device is a big part of the design of the mod. You're not supposed to be able to get any of these items easily. Simpler does not equal better in all cases. Whether it's your thing or not, the Wind Mill is a highly desirable item for many people, and I make them work for it, thus increasing the sense of accomplishment when it is obtained. Also, from a construction standpoint, a Wind Mill is MUCH more complex than a water-wheel. If you even just consider the framework required to support the sails the level of engineering that goes into one is much more difficult to achieve (hence the need for the saw to create the moulding for the frame). It's not exactly something you could just jury-rig with a hatchet.

I will admit that the feature is largely an aesthetic alternative to the Water Wheel, but considering its popularity (just check out the number of YouTube videos that feature people putting a huge amount of effort into creating their Wind Mill), I think it was a highly successful one. Also, as others pointed out, it's the only viable source of mechanical power in the Nether, and just because you aren't particularly into Nether-based building, doesn't mean others aren't. In addition to this, it is also 100% reliable in deserts, which combined with the Nether aspect retains the spirit of some of the regional-based usage you were talking about in your post.

Second, your criticism of items that have limited use (like the straps), is without knowledge of the overall design or what uses these items will have in the future. You may as well be criticizing the Haft, as it has zero uses at present. Every time I release a new teaser-item (like hemp was, or dung, or tanned leather, or the haft...) I get these kinds of complaints, and they are ultimately short-sighted.

Lastly, with regards to just using regular leather instead of tanned in the mod, again, you'd be chopping off a huge portion of the tech tree, eliminating an interesting aspect of farming that I introduced through that process (just check out my factory farm video), and ultimately, removing game play.

You may as well ask, why not just let every item in Minecraft be craftable out of cobble? The process of harvesting is a big part of the fun. By introducing new items to harvest, and new ways to combine them for other uses, I've intentionally been adding to that aspect of the game play.

[Berhemoth]

i like it way it is now it is fun to make all stepse otherwise it will be boring

[Yushatak]

Thanks for all of your arguments on the other side of my points, I do understand where you're coming from, at least after reading them all. I like to strike a balance between the simplicity of vanilla MC and the complexity shown here, but I can see that the majority of users (at least those who came through this thread) like things just as complex as they are. While I'd so some things differently, it's an excellent mod, and I look forward to the mod Gilberekke plans that brings the vanilla MC experience to that same level.

To specifically address the comparison to everything being crafted out of cobble - of course some complexity is necessary, I just like things at a different point along the spectrum - perhaps with Gilbrerekke's mod things wouldn't feel so contrasted between this mod and everything else, though, and it wouldn't bother me.