I've come to an understanding... [RANT]

[redrew89]

...Regarding why FC decided that using Forge API wasn't in the best interest of Better Than Wolves, aside from the motives mentioned in his interview with Battosay, which is something most of us have already seen, so I won't go into further detail. Before I get started, let me make something clear:

DISCLAIMER: This is not intended to be any type of flame/troll/bash/judgement of any one person in particular, and is not intended to, in any way, shape, or form, incite negative feelings toward any one individual or group of individuals. I simply have a desire to rant about a few things that I've noticed, lately.

With the release of BTB, I had decided that it would be worthwhile to try the combination of BTW/BC/BTB (which I shall invariably refer to as the "Unholy Trinity" from time to time). As such, I also decided that I should take the time to brush up on my BuildCraft mechanics. This led me to Direwolf20's Youtube channel, and by extension, his Let's Play series. First of all, let me state that my admiration of Direwolf20 now rival's that of our own resident Youtube mogul, Battosay. Seriously, the guy makes some pretty neat videos, featuring contraptions that are rather complex and completely blow my mind. Granted, the guy has about a dozen mods that he uses to help him, but in any case, I'm straying from the point.

The point I'm driving toward, in a rather haphazard fashion, is RP2. Yes, I understand that "RedPower" is considered a bit of a dirty word around these parts, and I once again ask readers to consider my disclaimer, because the next bit is going to get fairly intense. Eloraam clearly has some excellent programming skills, make no mistake. It's obvious by the level of polish and design consideration that goes into the features that make up RP2 and other mods she has written. However, the thing that seems to be getting to me is the way she seems to blatantly "borrow" features and ideas from other mods. For example, and this is one I'm sure some of you are aware of: redstone lighting. I first saw this back when Flowerchild had first expressed intent of abandoning Forge, as I was curious regarding statements made about Eloraam and her mods. Certainly, I was not impressed, out of principle. Sure, she had "improved" on FC's original light block mechanic, by making it possible to craft different colors of redstone lighting, but it was still rather obvious that the inspiration had come from BTW. This was one tally mark I reserved against RP2. I mention Direwolf's LP, because it brought my attention to other examples of "inspiration" being drawn from other popular mods. RP2 solar panels, and the Battery Box, borrowed from IC2, the Deployer/Breaker combo, which functions rather suspiciously like the beloved block dispenser, as well as pneumatic tubes, which are clearly her own version of BuildCraft pipes. Of course, each of these devices and features are subtly unique from their predecessors, but the fact remains that much of RP2 has the creativity of other mod developers to thank for it's popularity.

In short, while I can't discredit Eloraam for her programming skills, and the natural talent and attention to detail exhibited throughout her work, I have to confess that I'm more than a tad disappointed by the fact that it is considered acceptable to steal the ideas of other mod authors, tweak a few features, add a few odds and ends, and package it as her own product. In the professional industry, that is considered no better than outright plagiarism. While I do not fault anyone who enjoys using RP2, or any other mod that has features in common with other mods, I can't help but feel as though there are others, especially on this forum, who would share in my disapproval. Please, try to maintain civility in the discussion, but don't be shy. I would surely like to hear any feedback that others may have surrounding this matter. And, if there is anyone out there who would like to challenge any statements I've made, or even simply present their own viewpoint, I would be glad to hear it. I am certainly not one to claim that I am wholly in the right, and would not consider for a moment that my opinion is the only valid one. And, if you have read all the way up to this point, I would like to thank you for your patience, and applaud you for your attention span.

/rant complete

[Itamarcu]

TL;DR

Eloraam is a jerk.

That's what you meant, right?


I completely agree with you, and probably everyone else in the forums too. Eloraam did have quite a few useful features in her mods, but a lot were not original.

[Stormweaver]

Elo had a utility mod, and it's association with buildcraft made it widely used, and a dependant mod for *most* people with tech mods. It was still a utility mod when she helped create the forge. The userbase for the big mods more or less merged, then she started implementing functionality which is cheaper and easier to use than that of other mods, and modified the world gen to make any worlds dependant on redpower itself.

She deserves a pat on the back in my honest opinion, I couldn't have come up with a better way to develop and maintain a huge userbase that quickly.

[FlowerChild]

I don't want to get to far into stirring up this whole can of worms again, but I will say one thing:

I'm rather disappointed that considering other modders are far more heavily affected by this, that I'm the only one that took a solid stand on it. I honestly don't think that BTW has ever been in any danger from her behavior, given its design focus, and I think what was eating at me, and what ultimately caused me to withdraw from the Forge was more a matter of principle than anything else. I definitely don't think that's true for other mods though.

For example, Albaka has made some rather off-color public statements about the negative impact he thought that dropping Forge would have on BTW, so while I usually refrain from making comments like this, I don't mind saying that I think the day he "made peace" with Eloraam was the day he sounded the death-knell for IC2 (and probably for a few other mods along with it). His features are ultimately the ones she is obviously most going after.

Anyways man, whatever. Other modders are of course welcome to handle things how they see fit, however, much like with the Technic-pack thing, it would be nice to occasionally see them exhibit a bit of back-bone and at the very least refuse to collaborate with those that treat them like shit.

[xbitx]

I'm actually on the side of most of the people who responded just now, to the letter.

I never really read up on the entire debacle all that much, but I know enough about it now. And I did notice that RP2 has tubes in it.

I was thinking to myself when I saw it "RP2 is part of the Forge. BuildCraft is also part of the Forge. Now that RP2 has tubes, which are very close to BuildCraft's pipes, what's the point of having the Forge when you can just use RP2 solely?"

I don't understand how "Forge compatibility" is anything at all to do with compatibility since one mod gives all the options.

I haven't even touched on the subject of taking someone elses ideas, let alone the lack of respect in doing such.

So here is where I digress, since honestly it has no impact on BTW, or BTB. (Maybe a little to do with BTB since it does impact BC a little). As long as BC and BTW continue to be unique and bring features that are enjoyable, there's no worries about "losing forge compatibiliy" that will directly cause a "negative impact", because honestly you're only losing compatibility with one mod now.

That's my thoughts on it, like I said I don't know much so excuse me if I dug up some improper information, I only go based on what I understand but I do look things up to try and make sure what I say is atleast backed up slightly.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I made a deal with Alblaka to not add an electric drill. For the moment, at least.

So now it seems you have to use diplomacy to avoid having your features stolen. For the moment.

Anyhow, my views on that are simple, I find RP2 fun to play around with, but not for a main world.

And I'm really disappointed by what forge has become, and what Elo does in general.

[redrew89]

TL;DR

Eloraam is a jerk.

That's what you meant, right?

Yeah, that pretty much hit the nail on the head. I just didn't want to say it outright and sound like a jerk myself. At least, not without giving some rational for why I felt such.

She deserves a pat on the back in my honest opinion, I couldn't have come up with a better way to develop and maintain a huge userbase that quickly.

Yes, she has certainly proven that she's capable of becoming the next Bill Gates. After all, it was Bill that bought a home-made OS known as QDOS for a mere $5,000, and gave (read;licensed) it to the world, as MS-DOS, for $99 a copy. At least, in this case, there is no actual money involved.

I'm rather disappointed that considering other modders are far more heavily affected by this, that I'm the only one that took a solid stand on it. I honestly don't think that BTW has ever been in any danger from her behavior, given its design focus, and I think what was eating at me, and what ultimately caused me to withdraw from the Forge was more a matter of principle than anything else. I definitely don't think that's true for other mods though.

That is one of the reasons I have been adamant in my support for BTW. When you decided that Forge wasn't worth it, I could have easily decided that BTW wasn't worth abandoning Nova Catalyst, and flying... and having unbreakable tools and armor.... (Damn, I should stop.) However, the fact that you were a guy with principles made it worth-while, in my mind, to stick around. You were willing to make things a bit more difficult, with respect to once again having to modify base-classes manually to accomplish anything. That, and you have always been consistent in delivering features that are consistently more unique and creative than the constant rip-offs that Elo gives people. In short, you're a better guy all around, because you understand that people want something that challenges them and forces them to think more creatively, rather than just spoon-feeding them over-powered toys that make everything much more simple than originally intended. (Read; Intergrated Redstone. Just learn how to build circuits using vanilla binary logic, people. It's not that effing hard!)

I was thinking to myself when I saw it "RP2 is part of the Forge. BuildCraft is also part of the Forge. Now that RP2 has tubes, which are very close to BuildCraft's pipes, what's the point of having the Forge when you can just use RP2 solely?"

I don't understand how "Forge compatibility" is anything at all to do with compatibility since one mod gives all the options.

Yeah, that was my thought process, in a nut-shell. And, it's not surprising, really. I dare you to go check out her blog. She has pictures of a build that basically duplicates the functionality of a BC quarry, all using blocks and tools from RP2 Pre4. Actually, don't bother giving her the hit, just open the spoiler.

Spoiler

Show

This machine functions much like a Buildcraft Quarry, but it’s done entirely without “magic blocks”. I designed and built it in-world out of existing RedPower blocks and Frames. While this particular function is familiar-looking, it’s only one of millions of possibilities.

This is what I mean when I talk about making the parts work together. Other mods have some of the parts of this, but no combination of them can be used to build these sorts of machines.

She wants to make her mod the only game in town, basically, and she doesn't care who she has to step on to make it happen. She's just got the type of personality that kinda makes me wanna renounce my humanity and join the Cylons because they seem more compassionate.

So here is where I digress, since honestly it has no impact on BTW, or BTB. (Maybe a little to do with BTB since it does impact BC a little). As long as BC and BTW continue to be unique and bring features that are enjoyable, there's no worries about "losing forge compatibiliy" that will directly cause a "negative impact", because honestly you're only losing compatibility with one mod now.

True, and it's not even that I really care all that much, because now that BTW doesn't rely on Forge, there won't be any negative effects to FlowerChild's design process, unless you count the additional hours of work it might take to eventually reduce any dependency on Forge classes. However, what I know about programming in general is based on 3 years of high school courses, so it might not even be all that simple. So, yeah, as long as FC is confident that all is well, I won't stress too much. It just boils down to principles, and, from my perspective, it seems like Elo has none.

EDIT:

Spoiler

Show

And, perhaps it's also partially me. Maybe I'm just not happy unless I can have some righteous indignation. After all, just earlier this week, I was about to boil over because of the madness that the US Government calls "NDAA". That's probably more important, but much harder to discuss with people and not have them give you blank stares, or question your political values. Buckle up, and try to find some sunscreen, 'cause this country is going to hell in a hurry, folks.

[FlowerChild]

So now it seems you have to use diplomacy to avoid having your features stolen. For the moment.

It's pretty obvious it's a PR thing man. I think people started asking her some very uncomfortable questions when I left the Forge, to the point where she even felt compelled to justify her actions in a long blog post about her copying of other mod's features.

I think she went on the defensive after that, talked Al into believing everything was just fine and dandy, and even seems to have gone so far as of late as to ally herself with the Technic crowd (despite her hating that pack) for the sake of public opinion.

I know one statement she made gave me a real "lol" when she pretty much accused me of lying about my technical objections to what was happening with the Forge (I think she said I was fabricating the whole thing or something along those lines). The irony of that is that she effectively threatened to quit the Forge (she called it "branching", but it's effectively the same thing I'm doing right now in maintaining a separate version of the Forge that's compatible with no other) very early on because of the objections I was raising to the kinds of hooks she was putting in the thing, and I only backed down after a long argument, so she's very much aware of how serious my objections were. By the end of that disagreement, both of us were on the verge of quitting right then and there.

That kind of catering to, and manipulation of, public opinion makes me really happy that I don't give a shit about what people think of me ;)

[Stormweaver]

She wants to make her mod the only game in town, basically, and she doesn't care who she has to step on to make it happen. She's just got the type of personality that kinda makes me wanna renounce my humanity and join the Cylons because they seem more compassionate.

Well, there's always the tinfoil hat theory - that she's developing her own game (minia, i think it was called) which looks to be another infiminer clone, but with redpower functionality. Developing a successful mod for minecraft in a similar vein means she can get a userbase, and opinions on balance and features for when she releases it, and basically say "Guys, buy the game I just made, it's better than minecraft" and a good portion of her userbase (albeit the non-technic players who actually bought minecraft) will happily migrate over.

I think she just sees the whole thing as a business opportunity. I'll respect her for that, even if I don't agree with/like any of the ways she's going about it.[/tinfoil]

[Mbossa]

At the risk of making myself unpopular here, I'm going to have to say that I don't completely agree with some of the points made in this thread. Eloraam "borrowing" features from other mods is one way of looking at it, but try looking at it from another angle: why should Eloraam be "forbidden" from doing something in her mod just because another mod does something similar?

Take redstone lighting. With all due respect to FC, I don't think he's the only one to have come up with that idea. He may have been the first to implement it in a mod, but to be honest, it's a pretty obvious idea, and I'm sure plenty of Minecraft players independently wished Minecraft had such a feature before BTW came along. In fact, I believe that was the original reason FC implemented it -- he was saying "hey Mojang, here's an example of a rather obvious feature to include in Minecraft that's better than wolves but easier to implement". If Eloraam believes she can do something similar but with more features, I don't see why she should be forbidden from doing it.

Having said that, I fully support FC's decision to drop the Forge. From what I understand, the Forge wasn't making FC's job any easier -- in the end it was only serving to make BTW development slower and more frustrating. The only thing that was "gained" by working with the Forge was ensuring BTW could be installed alongside other mods that were relatively overpowered and screwed up BTW's progression. It's not as if dropping the Forge means BTW players can't ever use Forge mods. It's pretty trivial to make copies of the .minecraft folder and swap between BTW and the Forge. All it means is that we can't use BTW and Forge mods in the same world, and we're forced to play BTW the way it was intended to be played. Boo hoo.

[FlowerChild]

At the risk of making myself unpopular here

Not unpopular, just banned.

[Stormweaver]

While, I do belive in the freedom to discuss things like this, might I advise this thread be shut down? The whole thing has, to be fair, been discussed to death, and at this point it's become clear that anyone who clearly represents one side of the arguement is never going to be able to convince the other. And in the same vein, a one-sided discussion of the matter just amounts to gossip; which while humorous and entertaining, will just lead to a larger divide between the mod's communities, if not really affecting the actual parties involved.

[redrew89]

While, I do belive in the freedom to discuss things like this, might I advise this thread be shut down? The whole thing has, to be fair, been discussed to death, and at this point it's become clear that anyone who clearly represents one side of the arguement is never going to be able to convince the other. And in the same vein, a one-sided discussion of the matter just amounts to gossip; which while humorous and entertaining, will just lead to a larger divide between the mod's communities, if not really affecting the actual parties involved.

Yeah, I suppose that might be best. Flower, you are free to lock things up once everyone has left. I don't see any need to keep this discussion going, either. I simply wanted to get the matter into the open, and determine if I wasn't completely losing it over nothing. I mean, it's not really my problem if Elo wants to be a feature-thieving prat. As long as I can have what I enjoy, it's of little consequence.

EDIT: However, it seems the discussion will continue along on it's own. And, while I have my concerns that it might become a bit tired after a while, I'm willing to have any form of intelligent conversation, at this point. As long as we can be objective, respectful, and mature about it to some extent.

At the risk of making myself unpopular here

Not unpopular, just banned.

While I won't dare question your authority on your own forum, FC, I would say that he makes a semi-valid point. It's not so much the idea that a feature was borrowed in any sense, but that she could at least have said "Hey, credit for first implementing this idea goes to FlowerChild, I simply expanded it to include a variety of pretty colors." In any case, the discussion has already been beaten to death, and having someone b& in a thread I've created was the last thing I wanted to happen. However, it is your prerogative to drop the ban-hammer on whomever you deem worthy of it, as long as I never do or say anything to get on your bad side.

EDIT: And, for some reason, I was reading back through the early pages of the BTW MCF thread. I noticed something curious that made me do a double-take. There is a user who does go to great lengths listing a number of stand-alone modifications that, at the time, contained features that made their way into BTW. So, perhaps lambasting Eloraam isn't entirely justified, based on her track-record of using other people's ideas. Both mods seek to add features to the game that make for a more dynamic and rewarding play experience. However, it seems to me as though Eloraam is out to squash the competition, while FC simply wants to make something he himself would enjoy, as I state in a later post. It's just a matter of trusting the person you are getting a "product" from. While there is no monetary issue involved with any of this, when I use a mod, I want to be sure that the person who created it has the best interests of me, the user, on their mind. In the end, the decision of which products to use or not, depends on how willing the user is to give out their trust. I've made my choice, and I don't fault anyone else for their own.

[Damion Rayne]

At the risk of making myself unpopular here

Not unpopular, just banned.

Was the entirely needed? He agreed with you...

[MoRmEnGiL]

That kind of catering to, and manipulation of, public opinion makes me really happy that I don't give a shit about what people think of me ;)

You know, catering to public opinion too much is something I hate in game developers. And in general, when I'm looking at a product I want that product to be what it should be according to the developer specs, otherwise it makes me feel like an object, a consumer-statistic that must be conquered.

I don't want my ass kissed or sweet talked or actively trying to please me. I want them to do their thing, and if it is good I will support it all the way. But doing everything just to have me as a "customer" is just disgusting and likely to drive me away.

So in that regard your attitude is much more inline with my personal tastes. Just saying.

(Boy, sometimes it's really hard to find the proper words to express your thoughts.)

EDIT: I also think the ban was a bit too much, given that he pretty much gave his opinion without flaming trolling or anything.

[Damion Rayne]

I'm done with this. Hit me with a ban.

Have a good one.

[Stormweaver]

I'm done with this. Hit me with a ban.

Have a good one.

You know, the reason he's not replying probably involves sleep. Jus' saying.

[Haidaes]

Yeah, that was my thought process, in a nut-shell. And, it's not surprising, really. I dare you to go check out her blog. She has pictures of a build that basically duplicates the functionality of a BC quarry, all using blocks and tools from RP2 Pre4. Actually, don't bother giving her the hit, just open the spoiler.

Spoiler

Show

This machine functions much like a Buildcraft Quarry, but it’s done entirely without “magic blocks”. I designed and built it in-world out of existing RedPower blocks and Frames. While this particular function is familiar-looking, it’s only one of millions of possibilities.

This is what I mean when I talk about making the parts work together. Other mods have some of the parts of this, but no combination of them can be used to build these sorts of machines.

Well, while I agree on the whole tubes thing and the "heavy inspiration" from IC2, I think you are dismissing this one a bit too early as a BC quarry clone. From a gameplay perspective I have to admitt that I'm very intrigued by the idea of actually building a quarry system and programm it myself, w/o "magic blocks", much like a BTW cauldron/crucible/kiln is also a much more interesting concept than just placing coal in a forge and be done with it. The concept itself allows for alot of possibilies, of which some of them could defineatly be traced back to BTW's pulleys. Also the whole computer stuff she is up kind of intrigues me as well, hell I thought about implementing an assemlber based microcontroller block myself (though in the meantime some other guy already released his lua based one).
But here my beef started with her. When some ppl pointed out that someone had done a computer block her response was along the lines of "what do I care about the half assed stuff other ppl do", which is quite the bad attitude towards other modders (and programers).

While I wouldn't mind a bit more connected and harmonic experience in my mod(s), like BTB, her means of archieving them are beyond what I reconcile with my conscience.

[...]to quit the Forge (she called it "branching", but it's effectively the same thing I'm doing right now in maintaining a separate version of the Forge that's compatible with no other) [...]

Funny enough Alblaka already refers to Elooram's MCForge and Spacetoad's MCForge, which left me giggling when I messed around with IC2 a while back. I just have an afinity for electricity and overpowered rechargable diamond mining drills :).

For example, Albaka has made some rather off-color public statements about the negative impact he thought that dropping Forge would have on BTW, so while I usually refrain from making comments like this, I don't mind saying that I think the day he "made peace" with Eloraam was the day he sounded the death-knell for IC2 (and probably for a few other mods along with it). His features are ultimately the ones she is obviously most going after.

Adding no longer supporting his IC² thread on the MC Forums (damn it took me over 15 minutes find that damn thread) not one of the smartest moves. I wonder if he realizes it even or more to the point actually cares ?

[redrew89]

I'm done with this. Hit me with a ban.

Have a good one.

Be careful what you wish for, man. You might just get it. I mean, if you really think it's necessary, but I'm not sure what brought that reaction on. This was meant to be more of a mature discussion. Admittedly, I can say that I got carried away at a point or two, but I wouldn't want yet another ban on my conscience. However, I suppose that's not really my problem.

I don't want my ass kissed or sweet talked or actively trying to please me. I want them to do their thing, and if it is good I will support it all the way. But doing everything just to have me as a "customer" is just disgusting and likely to drive me away.

This times 1000. One of the reasons I wholly support Valve games is for this reason. They don't set out to please everyone at all times. They simply produce games that they themselves would enjoy playing, and by extension, they find that others enjoy said games just as much. Of course, they do sink many many hours on developer and consumer play-testing, to determine just how to make each game they produce challenging, without it being frustrating.

I know for a fact that this is also part of FC's design process for BTW. If he thinks he might be interested, challenged, or amused by a feature, chances are it finds it's way into the mod somehow. The deference in other mods (Like, RP2) is that Eloraam seems to be out to make a mod that tries to be the Swiss Army equivalent of many other competing mods. The ends result is likely to be a mod that is rather bloated, and perhaps includes more functionality than it truly needs to make the experience rewarding. If you get to a point where too many features are included, the user ends up intimidated by the sheer magnitude of everything available to them.

Well, while I agree on the whole tubes thing and the "heavy inspiration" from IC2, I think you are dismissing this one a bit too early as a BC quarry clone. From a gameplay perspective I have to admitt that I'm very intrigued by the idea of actually building a quarry system and programm it myself, w/o "magic blocks", much like a BTW cauldron/crucible/kiln is also a much more interesting concept than just placing coal in a forge and be done with it. The concept itself allows for alot of possibilies, of which some of them could defineatly be traced back to BTW's pulleys. Also the whole computer stuff she is up kind of intrigues me as well, hell I thought about implementing an assemlber based microcontroller block myself (though in the meantime some other guy already released his lua based one).

And, I'll admit that you have a valid point. There is potential for her features to make for a very rewarding play experience, but I see it from the flip-side as her, once again, being too ambitious for her own good. After all, we're talking about what is, as of currently, a hobby-project. Someday, she may get tired of developing and maintaining these pet projects, especially when they've become large enough that handling them alone would be neigh-impossible. What happens to her user-base at that point? She could open-source the entire thing, and let the community handle compatibility with updates from Mojang, or, as stated earlier in this thread, she may even be attempting to create a competing product to Minecraft itself, with RP2 functionality baked right in. In any case, while there is nothing inherently wrong with any of her actions up until this point, the manner in which she interacts with the community betrays her as a rather self-serving individual. I'm just not comfortable with that, I guess. But, hey, I make the choice not to use her mods, and I respect the choices of others to do as they please. Just stating my opinion.

Man, I should really let this one die, but the conversation is actually pretty stimulating to a sleep-deprived brain such as my own.

Adding no longer supporting his IC² thread on the MC Forums (damn it took me over 15 minutes find that damn thread) not one of the smartest moves. I wonder if he realizes it even or more to the point actually cares ?

Funnily enough, Google knows enough about my browsing habits that all I have to do is search "IndustrialCraft2" and the MCF thread is the top result. Same goes for BuildCraft and of course, Better Than Wolves.

[MoRmEnGiL]

I just have an afinity for electricity and overpowered rechargable diamond mining drills :)

It just hit me, but the diamond mining drill is only as overpowered as the SF Steel mattock is.

They both require an initial investment, but after that, you recharge the drill/recycle the mattock.

In both cases you need to have an infrastructure to use it without worry, in the case of drill a power system, in the case of mattock a glue,leather and wood farm. There are some differences in complexity and difficulty,but once you got the infrastructure in place, it's the same thing really.

[redrew89]

I just have an afinity for electricity and overpowered rechargable diamond mining drills :)

It just hit me, but the diamond mining drill is only as overpowered as the SF Steel mattock is.

They both require an initial investment, but after that, you recharge the drill/recycle the mattock.

In both cases you need to have an infrastructure to use it without worry, in the case of drill a power system, in the case of mattock a glue,leather and wood farm. There are some differences in complexity and difficulty,but once you got the infrastructure in place, it's the same thing really.

Valid point. I think we can agree that many of the "advanced automation" mods out there seem to fill similar niches, with differing aesthetics in mind. FC seeks to fit more into the vanilla-inspired role, while IC2 goes into a more high-tech inspired direction. There is nothing wrong with either. It all boils down to preference. However, I will say that, based on Direwolf20's videos, that Quantum Suit looks pretty awesome.

[jorgebonafe]

Also the whole computer stuff she is up kind of intrigues me as well, hell I thought about implementing an assemlber based microcontroller block myself (though in the meantime some other guy already released his lua based one).

Funny you should mention that, I had forgotten all about it.

Here is a post on IC²'s web page.

Here is a post on Eloraam's website.

Do me a favor and check the post dates. Nuff said.

[Damion Rayne]

Also the whole computer stuff she is up kind of intrigues me as well, hell I thought about implementing an assemlber based microcontroller block myself (though in the meantime some other guy already released his lua based one).

Funny you should mention that, I had forgotten all about it.

Here is a post on IC²'s web page.

Here is a post on Eloraam's website.

Do me a favor and check the post dates. Nuff said.

Check the post date? That's your ONLY argument as to why she's copying? Wow man, you just proved to me just how totally lost in your own little world you are. How about you pull stupidity out of your mouth, and instead do your own research? By the way, for the uneducated masses just following people blindly, Elo and the guy that made computer-craft actually worked together. She let him use parts of her code so it tied in with redpower. But I assume that means that she only did that because she intends on ruining his life and stealing all his stuff. You people amaze me...

[jorgebonafe]

Not my only argument, just one addition to all other arguments that would be redundant to post since they have been posted to death by now. And yeah, since the very first mention of a computer in red power come "four" days after a mention on IC² page, well, though certainly not proof of anything it does make you wonder...

[Damion Rayne]

Arguments? You mean the lot of you jumping on a bandwagon? Yeah I'd call that Arguing a point...

So let me get this right, say I want to do a steampunk mod...
Say I want clockwork stuff and mechanical power..

OH WAIT I'M NOT ALLOWED TO BECAUSE FC DID IT ALREADY!!! I'm a copying thieving piece of garbage!!!

Please, come up with valid arguments or keep your bandwagoning to yourself.