Considering dropping Forge

A place to talk to other users about the mod.
Locked
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Gilberreke »

CovertJaguar wrote:I know I wouldn't want the job. And a job it would be. So yeah, not an easy solution.
I have been thinking about starting a "Forge light" platform and maintaining it in the past, but I can't wrap my head around it clearly. Some input from the other developers may be needed. Most of my programming career was spent writing APIs for other people, so I'm familiar with the decisions and pitfalls involved.

Core principles would be:
- Can be overwritten by the current Forge and base-clean mods would keep functioning
- Provides a lightweight alternative, so if you only run Forge light compatible mods, you don't need the heavy one

I kinda scrapped the idea a while back, but I'm willing to give it a go if the community feels this is a potential avenue to go down.

Thoughts?
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
jorgebonafe
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:22 am
Location: Brasil

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by jorgebonafe »

Gilberreke wrote:
CovertJaguar wrote:I know I wouldn't want the job. And a job it would be. So yeah, not an easy solution.
I have been thinking about starting a "Forge light" platform and maintaining it in the past, but I can't wrap my head around it clearly. Some input from the other developers may be needed. Most of my programming career was spent writing APIs for other people, so I'm familiar with the decisions and pitfalls involved.

Core principles would be:
- Can be overwritten by the current Forge and base-clean mods would keep functioning
- Provides a lightweight alternative, so if you only run Forge light compatible mods, you don't need the heavy one

I kinda scrapped the idea a while back, but I'm willing to give it a go if the community feels this is a potential avenue to go down.

Thoughts?
I think this discussion might deserve its own thread
Better Than Wolves was borne of anal sex. True Story.
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Gilberreke »

jorgebonafe wrote:I think this discussion might deserve its own thread
Is BTW forums the right place though? In fact, I don't think there is a right place to discuss this and that's part of the problem right now. There is no Forge forum.
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
Sarudak
Site Admin
Posts: 2786
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:59 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Sarudak »

Some kind soul should make a forge forum...
User avatar
jorgebonafe
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:22 am
Location: Brasil

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by jorgebonafe »

Gilberreke wrote:
jorgebonafe wrote:I think this discussion might deserve its own thread
Is BTW forums the right place though? In fact, I don't think there is a right place to discuss this and that's part of the problem right now. There is no Forge forum.
Yeah, but well... it has to start somewhere... Forge thread is a mess, and a new forum wont start overnight... better to talk here then nowhere IMO, if anything at all is gonna happen.

Just to add something... I don't have a whole lot of time, what with uni and all, but I have some, and I've worked with java for a few years (not in games, but that's beside the point) so I'd be more then happy to contribute to this project if it ever happens.
Better Than Wolves was borne of anal sex. True Story.
User avatar
Magmarashi
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Magmarashi »

You have to do what you have to do, always.

Taking into consideration the people that use BTW with other mods, a number of things can occur. It seems that your closer supporters, gathered here, will elect to go pure BTW, or they already have. You're gonna lose a lot of players from MCF, because they already spin you as a rogue element in the community. You will find the vast majority left over, that you never hear from anyway, will just make a new folder to run BTW by itself via batch file because they already do that with mods that conflict but they want to play.

I keep a folder of Minecrafts, each with a batch file and a different mod setup so i don't have to swap .jar files around.
SCIENCE!
User avatar
FlowerChild
Site Admin
Posts: 18753
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by FlowerChild »

Magmarashi wrote:You're gonna lose a lot of players from MCF, because they already spin you as a rogue element in the community.
Hehe...I think "rogue element" is an extremely diplomatic way of putting it ;)

And yeah, I agree: the mod will definitely lose a lot of players. I have no illusions there.
User avatar
Dralnalak
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:13 am

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Dralnalak »

FlowerChild wrote:Leading programmers has been likened to herding cats in the past, and I suspect without any money in the equation, that turns into drunk cats :)
I've had to herd multiple cats into the bedroom because the plumber is coming.

I've managed projects that involved programmers.

Give me the cats every time. Much easier. Much less stressful. Much more likely to generate a funny YouTube video. :)
User avatar
Sarudak
Site Admin
Posts: 2786
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:59 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Sarudak »

Dralnalak wrote:
FlowerChild wrote:Leading programmers has been likened to herding cats in the past, and I suspect without any money in the equation, that turns into drunk cats :)
I've had to herd multiple cats into the bedroom because the plumber is coming.

I've managed projects that involved programmers.

Give me the cats every time. Much easier. Much less stressful. Much more likely to generate a funny YouTube video. :)
We just don't like being managed... Lol
User avatar
MoRmEnGiL
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:29 pm
Location: Bosom Higgs

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by MoRmEnGiL »

FlowerChild wrote: Hehe...I think "rogue element" is an extremely diplomatic way of putting it ;)

And yeah, I agree: the mod will definitely lose a lot of players. I have no illusions there.
I've somehow always liked being a rogue element myself :P

As for losing players, I'm not sure it is such a big loss, since players who would rather lose btw than other mods are probably not getting that much out of btw in the first place, and probably only used it for one or two things..
War..
War never changes.

Remember what the dormouse said
User avatar
Andellmere
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:39 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Andellmere »

So... It's pretty much all been said before. Over and over and over and... Well, you all get the idea. Those of you (Shengji primarily) who talked to me before will know to skip down to the bottom to see what the hell my rambling was about.

Flowerchild,

Better than Wolves is your mod. You are the Boss. Nobody is paying you. We can't even donate to your cause(and gods know that some of us want to). This is your decision. People who don't like it can get over it. Find a way around it. Something.
If you break with Forge, I'll just have two '.minecraft's. Simple as that. Not sure what all the drama is about for some of these people is. And if you're a 'rogue element' we'll all just have to break out the cloaks, dark suits, and secret handshakes. I always wanted to be an assassin.

The Point: Your mod. Your rules. We'll live.
Need a combination door? I've got one you can use.
moonj64
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:55 am

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by moonj64 »

So after reading through this entire thread, I'm somewhat conflicted.

I cannot remember what mod I used first but this mod is definitely among the ones I did; I may have just used a combination of mods with this one included. However I do remember what my first "major" build involving BTW was. It was an elevator going from bedrock to my sky fortress. The elevator shaft was dug by a buildcraft quarry and it was controlled using redpower wiring. It was a perfect synergy between the three. I did end up starting new worlds later after this due to general minecraft updates and I did include BTW in many of them. However after a while I stopped using BTW (though I did keep it installed and ready) for reasons I will hit on below.

Going back to where the discussion hit on the topic that some mods have become "cluttered" I would like to point out that whether something is or isn't cluttered is an opinion and frankly the main reason that I stopped using this was because I thought it was becoming cluttered with many trivial things. This is not to say that you shouldn't add things to your mod based on my or anyone else's opinion, you can direct your mod in any direction you choose, this is however what drove me away from your mod. This also isnt meant to say that other mods are not becoming cluttered (it is for this reason I completely hate the new Buildcraft with engines, oil, and fuel), yours was just the first that I noticed was.

I would also like to touch on the issues raised with Eloraam. While I cannot comment on whether or not Forge has been mostly/completely customized for redpower, I have looked into creating a forge compatible mod and I have not noticed forge modifying more base files than necessary. Maybe I misunderstood the complaint there.

Lastly I wanted to touch on the issue of the copied items in redpower. While I can see partially why it might be upsetting to have such similar objects, if no one is allowed to make items that are similar to items from other mods, how can improvements on old systems be introduced? To go off of your tower analogy from several pages back, since you have built a tower, why cant someone build a better tower? Is the fact that your tower exists supposed to mean that no one else can build any sort of tower that resembles yours in any way, coincidence or otherwise? Getting back to the issue, if another modder makes an improvement on a core idea you originally developed and there is no other way to accomplish the same task, then why should you hold the key as to what can and what cannot be made? It was this sort of reasoning as to why Microsoft got to make windows even though it was very similar to the apple OS, there just wasn't any other way to make the same product. I know you have compared your mining charge to buildcraft's quarries as an analogy of how new ideas can be used for the same task but frankly the two don't accomplish the same task. The mining charge is an explosive used to help players mine resources, but the resources must be collected by the player; It is versatile but requires player interaction if you want to keep the resources. The quarry is designed to strip the land of all of its resources in a way that requires no player interaction whatsoever. It is true that both help mine, but mining is such a broad category that they are not the same.

Anyway I don't mean for this to sound as critical as it came out. It's just that there needs to be two sides to every discussion. On the general topic of dropping forge it is completely and utterly up to you. You could decide to add giant purple flying elephants if you wanted, I just wanted to add my input to the discussion here. I am sad to see the compatibility go and I may download BTW in the future, it still has some aspects that keep me coming back.

Edit: apparently the post above me was posted while I was typing all this out and I think it summarizes quite nicely
The Point: Your mod. Your rules. We'll live.
User avatar
FlowerChild
Site Admin
Posts: 18753
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by FlowerChild »

moonj64 wrote:This also isnt meant to say that other mods are not becoming cluttered (it is for this reason I completely hate the new Buildcraft with engines, oil, and fuel), yours was just the first that I noticed was.
It's funny you should say that man. When those elements were introduced to Buildcraft, that's exactly the point at which I decided to try it. I thought their inclusion was absolutely brilliant, and turned the mod into a game.

We're obviously looking for very different things in mods. It seems you want pure functionality, while I want a gameplay experience.

As for the copy cat thing, I've said before in this thread: I'm not trying to restrict what Eloraam or anyone else can do. What I am saying is that I won't work with someone that behaves in that fashion. The restriction I am placing is on myself, not her.

I also see a huge difference between addressing common gameplay problems in Minecraft (which is why I brought up the mining charges) and directly mimicking details such as the names of blocks (e.g. panels), the look of blocks (e.g. pipes), and eerily similar gameplay behavior to intended purpose (two block high fiber producing plant).

I personally don't think it's coincidental that she signed onto the Forge and the next thing you know she's putting in functionality that attempts to outdo the features of the primary mods she's supposedly collaborating with, and intentionally attempting to draw comparisons between them by putting in obvious similarities. So far, that's actually *all* I've seen her do without one original idea appearing in her mod.

It's cheap, it's aggravating, it runs counter to a collaborative spirit, it's overly competitive, derivative, uncreative, and just plain sad. To me, it seems she's making every attempt to piss off the people she's working with through this kind of passive-aggressive nonsense (whereas I'm just straight out aggressive) and has succeeded admirably in that regard.
User avatar
Andellmere
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:39 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Andellmere »

I'm with Flowerchild on this one. BC interests me because of it's engines and fuels and what you, moon, classify as clutter.
I'll admit that I came in late to the mod (2.x or thereabouts) but I'm always trying the latest version to see what new insanity I can get up to with it. The 3.x series looks nice simply because I no longer have to run redstone next to my pipes. I can run it on the pipes. And that kind of eliminates the main reason I used RP. Making redstone stairs frustrates me.
On the plus side, I know a single logic gate. Battosay uses it for his elevators. I use it for everything. So thank you, Flowerchild, for leading me to pulleys which led to elevators which led to Battosay which led to my understanding redstone.

The Point: We have a difference in opinion. I think BC is awesome. You think it's cluttered. Oh well. You can play your way, I'll play mine.
Need a combination door? I've got one you can use.
moonj64
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:55 am

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by moonj64 »

FlowerChild wrote:
moonj64 wrote:This also isnt meant to say that other mods are not becoming cluttered (it is for this reason I completely hate the new Buildcraft with engines, oil, and fuel), yours was just the first that I noticed was.
It's funny you should say that man. When those elements were introduced to Buildcraft, that's exactly the point at which I decided to try it. I thought their inclusion was absolutely brilliant, and turned the mod into a game.

We're obviously looking for very different things in mods. It seems you want pure functionality, while I want a gameplay experience.
I see functionality as a gameplay experience, the tools you have should be useful shouldn't they? I guess I see mods as a way to enable you to make your own experiences in game, they shouldn't create experiences by themselves. Anyway I guess we are agreed to disagree then.
FlowerChild wrote:As for the copy cat thing, I've said before in this thread: I'm not trying to restrict what Eloraam or anyone else can do. What I am saying is that I won't work with someone that behaves in that fashion. The restriction I am placing is on myself, not her.
I guess I can see why you would want to remain in competition with someone who uses similar ideas, it keeps your idea "yours". What I was trying to get at though was that it isn't a bad thing that your idea is being expanded upon, imitation is the greatest form of flattery isn't it (even though it's not exactly imitation since the functionality has been improved).
User avatar
FlowerChild
Site Admin
Posts: 18753
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by FlowerChild »

moonj64 wrote:I guess I can see why you would want to remain in competition with someone who uses similar ideas, it keeps your idea "yours". What I was trying to get at though was that it isn't a bad thing that your idea is being expanded upon, imitation is the greatest form of flattery isn't it (even though it's not exactly imitation since the functionality has been improved).
To a point. When it's done habitually and systematically, it's competition. I don't want to spend my time modding trying to keep up with the Jones. It's a recreational activity for Pete's sake, not some gigantic cock-fight where we're all singing:

"Anything you can do, I can do better".

As to whether these features are "improvements", that's a matter of personal taste. If I were to throw game-balance and performance out the window, and was solely preoccupied with outdoing other modders, I'm sure I could pull quite a few tricks out of my sleeve as well.
User avatar
Andellmere
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:39 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Andellmere »

FlowerChild wrote: If I were to throw game-balance and performance out the window, and was solely preoccupied with outdoing other modders, I'm sure I could pull quite a few tricks out of my sleeve as well.
Please, for the love of God, don't do this! You took a reasonable protest against a useless addition to vMC and turned it into a large mod that adds much to the game as a whole. I am absolutely terrified of what you could come up with without self-imposed limits.
On a sidenote, I feel a bit like I'm writing between the lines of you and moon, Flowerchild...
Need a combination door? I've got one you can use.
User avatar
FlowerChild
Site Admin
Posts: 18753
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by FlowerChild »

Andellmere wrote: Please, for the love of God, don't do this! You took a reasonable protest against a useless addition to vMC and turned it into a large mod that adds much to the game as a whole.
Lol! Yeah, I'm still not entirely certain how that happened :)
moonj64
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:55 am

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by moonj64 »

FlowerChild wrote:
moonj64 wrote:I guess I can see why you would want to remain in competition with someone who uses similar ideas, it keeps your idea "yours". What I was trying to get at though was that it isn't a bad thing that your idea is being expanded upon, imitation is the greatest form of flattery isn't it (even though it's not exactly imitation since the functionality has been improved).
To a point. When it's done habitually and systematically, it's competition. I don't want to spend my time modding trying to keep up with the Jones. It's a recreational activity for Pete's sake, not some gigantic cock-fight where we're all singing:

"Anything you can do, I can do better".

As to whether these features are "improvements", that's a matter of personal taste. If I were to throw game-balance and performance out the window, and was solely preoccupied with outdoing other modders, I'm sure I could pull quite a few tricks out of my sleeve as well.
My apologies, you are right that what an improvement is, is also an opinion. But I think you might have misunderstood what i meant by "remain in competition". I didnt mean to imply that you would have to engage in some sort of war over designing a better mod. I was simply trying to say that I can see why you would want to differentiate your mod from Eloraam's by separating it completely, so that they absolutely aren't used together.
User avatar
FlowerChild
Site Admin
Posts: 18753
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:24 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by FlowerChild »

moonj64 wrote:My apologies, you are right that what an improvement is, is also an opinion. But I think you might have misunderstood what i meant by "remain in competition". I didnt mean to imply that you would have to engage in some sort of war over designing a better mod. I was simply trying to say that I can see why you would want to differentiate your mod from Eloraam's by separating it completely, so that they absolutely aren't used together.
Well, that's not really my intention here as much as it is to no longer collaborate with her and have my mod be independent of her own work given that she's for all intents and purposes taken over the Forge and turned it into the Redpower API.

Look at the current situation with the update to 1.0. I have no idea when she's going to update the Forge, or how long that's going to take, and given that she's the only one familiar with the code-base at this point, and given that it's become highly invasive and bloated, she's also the only one capable of maintaining it (short of extreme effort).

If the update to 1.8 was any indication, I get the impression that it also won't be updated until she's ready with a 1.0 release of her own mod putting me in the position of twiddling my thumbs until that happens, and of course guaranteeing that hers will always be the first mod to update out of the other Forge mods when a new release of MC comes out (again, competition).

So really, whether RP is compatible with BTW or not is a secondary consideration to the dependence the development of my mod now has on hers. I'm fine with compatibility, but not fine with that kind of power dynamic especially given the competitive tendencies she's exhibited.
dariys
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 11:16 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by dariys »

Having played with BTW for some time now - I have to say that the balance in the mod is spectacular. While I feel the windmill is a rather big step in and of itself, I love how there is an actual progression to what has to be built.

I've been using BTW in a combination of mods, including IC2, RP2, BC, Railcraft, EE, and using Zombes mod pack to alter recipes to tie everything together. In that aspect, I've made everything else dependent on content from BTW. I haven't even touched some of the mods I have installed yet, as I'm building up my base, building a sorting system - right now I'm just into the industrial age (IC2 machines, no fully fleshed out power grid, but all ages of BTW completed). I'm having a blast with this.

My big concern however, is that if just going through the content from BTW was it - develop pottery, make steel, make armor, etc - if that's it, I'd be rather bored of it at that point. I like the idea of a tech tree. I like the idea of a progression. I like what you've done, and the interesting ways that you've made things work. At this point though, it doesn't feel like it goes far enough for me by itself.

At this point, I haven't updated past 3.20, as I have 1 block ID left - and I'd like to play through this world before I start ripping stuff out. With this, I'll likely stick to 1.8.1 for a while, with the mods I have going now.

I'm just concerned that without being compatible with other mods, I'll find BTW less interesting on its own, yet I highly desire the design and philosophy that you have presented with the mod.
User avatar
Mrchaim
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:11 am

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Mrchaim »

FlowerChild wrote:"Anything you can do, I can do better".


Because i'm ceartin some people havent seen this wonderful song.

Back on track - Well, while it's sad to see Forge has fumbled as it were, It's good to see you've got a plan. Good luck with things, Flowerchild - I'll be watching with anticipation.

*watches*
User avatar
Tekei
Posts: 545
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:35 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Tekei »

dariys wrote:[...] My big concern however, is that if just going through the content from BTW was it - develop pottery, make steel, make armor, etc - if that's it, I'd be rather bored of it at that point. I like the idea of a tech tree. I like the idea of a progression. I like what you've done, and the interesting ways that you've made things work. At this point though, it doesn't feel like it goes far enough for me by itself.. [...]
I'd just like to point out that simply hitting the "current end of the tech tree" is barely scratching the surface of BTW. Quite frankly, it's where the real challenges come in to play. Setting up your automated farms and factories and making as many of them as possible play together is extremely fun. I haven't played much with BC or RP2 etc but I can't imagine they'd make things more fun. Most of those things are possible to do with BTW's tools. It just requires a bit of thinking.

Now, I am in no position to tell you that your opinion is wrong, and I don't intend this to be interpreted that way either. I am also aware that what were talking about here is highly subjective. I simply wanted to offer a counter argument, and maybe a little comfort as well. :)
Dreadwraith
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:50 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Dreadwraith »

I certainly don't blame you. Being tied to someone's release schedule is a hassle anyway. You should find more freedom this way. Good luck.
User avatar
Shengji
Posts: 638
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:35 pm

Re: Considering dropping Forge

Post by Shengji »

Andellmere wrote:So... It's pretty much all been said before. Over and over and over and... Well, you all get the idea. Those of you (Shengji primarily) who talked to me before will know to skip down to the bottom to see what the hell my rambling was about.
Huh, What, Hey.... Hello! Whatever it was, hope you didn't get too offended - no problem with your posts today!
moonj64 wrote:I see functionality as a gameplay experience, the tools you have should be useful shouldn't they?
Everyone has a different idea of gameplay, not trying to make you change your mind or influence your opinion here but it is worth noting that many games give you tools which are useful for a limited time in the game - take civilisation, the swordsman is the most useful unit early in the game, yet is a useless tool later on. I think we agree though, just have different tastes in gameplay and the thing I like most about BTW is the slow journey you take to the end, to my mind it allows you to appreciate every nuance of the mod individually as it becomes available!

I certainly wouldn't agree with you when you seemed to infer that BTW doesn't allow you to create you own experiences though. I can't see that point at all - in fact I find this to be one of the most rapidly improving things about BTW - it gets you out trying to achieve goals which vary greatly from the early farming to the search for wolves, the building of the gadgets etc
Tekei wrote:I'd just like to point out that simply hitting the "current end of the tech tree" is barely scratching the surface of BTW.
This is the point where I generally up sticks and go start again! I don't find the serious automation fun, especially if there is nothing much to do with it all! Please don't take that the wrong way though, I love that other people find this fun and love that it's important to BTW! I tend to prefer to automate as I go - if you see what I mean, automate as necessary to get the resources I currently need at the time for whatever it is I'm doing!
7 months, 37 different border checks and counting.
Locked