Musket

[morvelaira]

(Because hats are the source of all authority and tactical prowess, naturally.)

Especially when said hat has a redstone powered mini-gun shooting chicken eggs on top.

[Thalmane]

Ooh! Ooh! I know!

We'll call it the "Wellington", and it'd be a well-dressed zombie wearing a funny hat. When he's around mobs act more logical: Skeletons all fire at the same time, mobs don't hurt each other, and creepers seek out user-placed blocks to destroy them. To end this coordinated onslaught, the player has to find the Wellington and knock off his hat. (Because hats are the source of all authority and tactical prowess, naturally.)

Not sure if stupid

or genious

Pure unadultered genius my friend

[GabLann4]

Maybe just for another age, we are at the steel age...
But if the mod grows bigger (which i know it will), things will get modern!
Maybe for the next versions...

[Shengji]

Maybe just for another age, we are at the steel age...
But if the mod grows bigger (which i know it will), things will get modern!
Maybe for the next versions...

Just bear in mind that the kind of steel production in BTW was prevalent in the 9th and 10th Century AD here in the west - in the east it was more like 5th Century! So if the mod is planned to mimic real life, we are barely out of the (so called) dark ages yet, though I know the mod is going to choose gameplay over historical accuracy.

To put it in perspective, the Norse were just starting to stop merely raiding the coast during this era and starting to take land, the Normans had only just settled in Normandy (Yes I know, also Norsemen) - we are not even into the medieval era in terms of technology, then we have the renaissance before industrialisation and steam etc

[Gilberreke]

Actually, the crucible steel we seem to be using was invented way earlier than that.

The oldest specimens found date back to Sri Lanka in 300 BCE. By the 3rd century CE, it was already a huge export product.

[pi4t]

Actually, the crucible steel we seem to be using was invented way earlier than that.

Really? Cooked in a crucible with soul urns? And there was me thinking that part of the mod was historically inaccurate... :)

[Gilberreke]

Really? Cooked in a crucible with soul urns? And there was me thinking that part of the mod was historically inaccurate... :)

The tech tree progression is modeled after historical events and technology. It only deviates where Minecraft does.

[Shengji]

Really? Cooked in a crucible with soul urns? And there was me thinking that part of the mod was historically inaccurate... :)

It's as good an explanation of Wootz steel as any ;)

[Gilberreke]

It's as good an explanation of Wootz steel as any ;)

Haha, true :D

[BigShinyToys]

Guns have been implemented in so many mods now that you are shore to find one that is forge compatible.

But I think that Steve has Steel has wood has GUN powder and can make the kind of complex wood working needed to make a gear box and water wheels. Steve would need a Drill press or lath to make a gun AS just bashing a piece of metal into a barrel is kinda Not good. If in the Next age Steve learns how to cast metal make holes in metal and invents the nail / screws then maybe.

AND yes I'm one of the I want guns type of person I just keep it to my self to not get flamed like the fist few reply's did.

[DaveYanakov]

Gunpowder is semantics. For a while it was called Sulphur before Notch changed it back. And let's keep in mind that muskets are well down the tech tree from the earliest implementations of explosive compounds as weapons. Rockets would be far more likely. The earliest guns as you think of them were cups hammered into a block rather than an actual barrel that was bored out. Other examples include barrels made by welding rod or bar stock around a cylindrical form and the reinforced by tightly wrapping the result with wire.

[Andellmere]

Before we ever get to guns, or any self-propelled projectile, we have to consider the crossbow(Which technically came before the compound bow and was preceded by the long- and recurved bows).
That was the basis for the idea of guns. It was better than a standard bow but was slower and required more training to use. Plus, you had to be strong to pull it back or wait the extra time to crank the string back.
When some crazy guy invented the frontloading musket, he probably based it off the crossbow in that it was single-shot, slow, and required extensive training. BUT, it didn't require the extra strength and it could punch through armor at (for the time) extreme long-range.
So. Although I rambled all over the place, my point is that before we get to guns of any kind, we have to go through all the other stuff to get there. Starting with something similar to a crossbow. In other words, something you prepare before shooting it and then is ready to shoot instantly.
The new shooting mechanic brings the drawback of the bow to Minecraft. So, we need something to counteract that drawback.

...ADHD is bad for compact posts.

The Point: While we'd probably appreciate a Musket(And props for an idea I've never seen for Minecraft) we should probably look for less technological methods. Like the crossbow.

[PuppetRebel]

Check out: Balkon's Weapon Mod

[Andellmere]

Check out: Balkon's Weapon Mod

That... Is awesome. And I'll probably be using it. But, I was thinking more in line with the BTW Tech Tree. Something like... I dunno, maybe you use the BTW bow to craft the crossbow?

The Point: I'd like to see something in BTW that upgrades the bow since the whole mod seems to be aimed at improving/fixing stuff from vMC.

(I'm adding The Point because I ramble way too much.)

[Stormweaver]

The Point: I'd like to see something in BTW that upgrades the bow since the whole mod seems to be aimed at improving/fixing stuff from vMC.

(I'm adding The Point because I ramble way too much.)

But...BTW already has an upgraded bow. One that will probably one-shot anything once it's converted to the 1.8.1 bow mechanics.

I'm still wondering why we'd need weapons more powerful than one-shot kills :|

[walker_boh_65]

The Point: I'd like to see something in BTW that upgrades the bow since the whole mod seems to be aimed at improving/fixing stuff from vMC.

(I'm adding The Point because I ramble way too much.)

But...BTW already has an upgraded bow. One that will probably one-shot anything once it's converted to the 1.8.1 bow mechanics.

I'm still wondering why we'd need weapons more powerful than one-shot kills :|

But...I want to just look at something and kill it....

[Stormweaver]

But...I want to just look at something and kill it....

Then we don't need muskets. We need soul-powered laser eyes.

I propose we rename the thread in light of this.

[Andellmere]

But...BTW already has an upgraded bow. One that will probably one-shot anything once it's converted to the 1.8.1 bow mechanics.

I'm still wondering why we'd need weapons more powerful than one-shot kills :|

Not more powerful. That's not the point here. Not for me, anyway. The Point, for me, is thus: A preloaded weapon. One that fires like the original bow. Instant-shot and then reload. Not the damn charge-up you have to do to get use out of the bow now. Of course, I've been trying to get Cubic Chunks working and haven't worked with BTW so the bow there could solve that.

The charge is my issue.

[Stormweaver]

But...BTW already has an upgraded bow. One that will probably one-shot anything once it's converted to the 1.8.1 bow mechanics.

I'm still wondering why we'd need weapons more powerful than one-shot kills :|

Not more powerful. That's not the point here. Not for me, anyway. The Point, for me, is thus: A preloaded weapon. One that fires like the original bow. Instant-shot and then reload. Not the damn charge-up you have to do to get use out of the bow now. Of course, I've been trying to get Cubic Chunks working and haven't worked with BTW so the bow there could solve that.

The charge is my issue.

Hence my proposal for soul-powered laser eyes.

[Andellmere]

But...BTW already has an upgraded bow. One that will probably one-shot anything once it's converted to the 1.8.1 bow mechanics.

I'm still wondering why we'd need weapons more powerful than one-shot kills :|

Not more powerful. That's not the point here. Not for me, anyway. The Point, for me, is thus: A preloaded weapon. One that fires like the original bow. Instant-shot and then reload. Not the damn charge-up you have to do to get use out of the bow now. Of course, I've been trying to get Cubic Chunks working and haven't worked with BTW so the bow there could solve that.

The charge is my issue.

Hence my proposal for soul-powered laser eyes.

...Can you point to where in my posts I said I wanted to insta-kill things? More damage is not the only thing to consider. You have to consider all kind of things. Firing time being the thing I'm focusing on here, since that seemed to be one of the points of the suggestion.
A flatter arc, half-charge damage(From the base bow), and a pre-load mechanism. The crossbow is what I suggested for these. It's not overpowered as far as I can see, but if you disagree, can you tell me what it is?

[Stormweaver]

...Can you point to where in my posts I said I wanted to insta-kill things? More damage is not the only thing to consider. You have to consider all kind of things. Firing time being the thing I'm focusing on here, since that seemed to be one of the points of the suggestion.
A flatter arc, half-charge damage(From the base bow), and a pre-load mechanism. The crossbow is what I suggested for these. It's not overpowered as far as I can see, but if you disagree, can you tell me what it is?

Not sure if quote is releveant. But even if not:

Once BTW's bow is updated, logically it'll be able to one-hit kill things. It follows that a weapon on a higher/same tier will have roughly the same power (to justify huge tech required vs 3 sticks and string). On top of that, the composite bow's added range flattens the arc significantly on the vMC bow.

And for firing speed? You did just quote me, no?

[Andellmere]

...Can you point to where in my posts I said I wanted to insta-kill things? More damage is not the only thing to consider. You have to consider all kind of things. Firing time being the thing I'm focusing on here, since that seemed to be one of the points of the suggestion.
A flatter arc, half-charge damage(From the base bow), and a pre-load mechanism. The crossbow is what I suggested for these. It's not overpowered as far as I can see, but if you disagree, can you tell me what it is?

Not sure if quote is releveant. But even if not:

Once BTW's bow is updated, logically it'll be able to one-hit kill things. It follows that a weapon on a higher/same tier will have roughly the same power (to justify huge tech required vs 3 sticks and string). On top of that, the composite bow's added range flattens the arc significantly on the vMC bow.

And for firing speed? You did just quote me, no?

Okay, my brain is trying to work this out, so I'm going to make a list:

1. Musket suggestion is made
2. People support it/shoot it down for various reasons
3. I suggest crossbow, a potentially viable replacement for Steve's tech-level.
4. Someone mentions wanted to look at things and kill them
5. You promptly turn that back on me for some odd reason.
6. I'm now confused. Probably because I'm tired.

So, to sum up:

The Point: The bow fires arrows. It's slow, has to be charged but has the potential to one-shot most mobs. The BTW bow(and what is the name of it, anyway?) is a longer ranged version of the bow, more expensive version of the basic bow. The crossbow would be a bow with the charge mechanism switched around, Steve would charge it(reload) and then store it until you need it, essentially providing a one-shot emergency weapon. Hell, make the reload as long the full charge for the bow.

[Shengji]

Stuff

Look, here's the issue. Not every weapon is going to be represented in the mod. Here's why:

Javelin, sling, darts, bows, Atlatl, Catapult, Long Gun, Mbanja, Minigun, Bagakay, Arquebus, Nzappa zap, Blunderbuss, Banda, Musket, Rungu, Musketoon, Blowgun, Wall Gun, Shuriken, Nordenfelt Gun, Grenade Launcher, Bolas, Sling shot, PDW, Revolver, Boomerang, Submachine Gun, Bolt Action Rifle, Spear, Chakram, Assault Rifle, Swiss arrow, Crossbow, Metal Storm, Sniper Rifle, Throwing axe, Hunga Munga, Combat Shotgun, Throwing Knife, Flamethrower, Kestros, Machine Pistol, Throwing stick, Gattling Gun, Mitrailleuse, Knobkierrie, Woomera, Service Pistol, Shotgun.

There are just too many ranged weapons.

So think about it from a game design direction - work from function forwards rather than "Cool idea" backwards. What function do you want - obviously to kill from a distance, hence the weapon suggestion. You have mentioned a slow rate of fire and a flattened arc - and people have quite correctly pointed out we already have both of those.

So design the functions of your idea first, then work forwards to the name of the weapon that fits best. What you did was come up with crossbow and tried to find function to fit, the very definition of a poor idea and poor game design.

Also, please research your facts properly, the first crossbows were used in Chinese traps in the fifth century, the earliest deliberate compound bows were late paleolithic and were a composite of bone and horn but used the compound lever effect. I assume you are talking about the incredibly modern bows which were reinvented in the 60's I think at a guess. Humanity has been utilising the lever since before we were humanity.

[Andellmere]

Stuff

Look, here's the issue. Not every weapon is going to be represented in the mod. Here's why:

Javelin, sling, darts, bows, Atlatl, Catapult, Long Gun, Mbanja, Minigun, Bagakay, Arquebus, Nzappa zap, Blunderbuss, Banda, Musket, Rungu, Musketoon, Blowgun, Wall Gun, Shuriken, Nordenfelt Gun, Grenade Launcher, Bolas, Sling shot, PDW, Revolver, Boomerang, Submachine Gun, Bolt Action Rifle, Spear, Chakram, Assault Rifle, Swiss arrow, Crossbow, Metal Storm, Sniper Rifle, Throwing axe, Hunga Munga, Combat Shotgun, Throwing Knife, Flamethrower, Kestros, Machine Pistol, Throwing stick, Gattling Gun, Mitrailleuse, Knobkierrie, Woomera, Service Pistol, Shotgun.

There are just too many ranged weapons.

So think about it from a game design direction - work from function forwards rather than "Cool idea" backwards. What function do you want - obviously to kill from a distance, hence the weapon suggestion. You have mentioned a slow rate of fire and a flattened arc - and people have quite correctly pointed out we already have both of those.

So design the functions of your idea first, then work forwards to the name of the weapon that fits best. What you did was come up with crossbow and tried to find function to fit, the very definition of a poor idea and poor game design.

Maybe I wasn't being clear. Maybe my brain is addled. Maybe I'm just crazy.
I didn't say 'Crossbow!' and then find stuff to fit. I looked at what I think could be improved with the bow. In this case, not the firing rate as everyone keeps going back to, but rather the fact that a skeleton can shoot you four times in the time it takes to fire your first arrow(I've had it happen to me before). So, we need something that can be preloaded. Guns are the first thing that comes to mind. But guns are out of our tech range. So, we look down the real tech tree. I don't have much experience outside of Europe, so crossbows are the first non-gun thing that comes to mind. Yes, there are psychotic amounts of ranged weapons. But Minecraft and BTW seem to be tending towards a European style as well.

The Point: The musket seemed a good idea because it provided an instant fire weapon. There were justifiable reasons why the musket couldn't be used. So, I tried to provide an alternative. One we have all the parts for. We have a bow, a pulley, and a trigger mechanism. Not sure why everyone is so against it though.

[Shengji]

There are several reasons people are against it.

1) Too many powerful weapons in the modded game already.

We already have two ranged weapons. One is instant fire, one charges. One is strong, one is weaker. One fires close with a pronounced arc, one fires far with a flatter arc. To add a third ranged weapon, it would have to be really special and provide something interesting or fun. Both bows are rather overpowered against all common mobs and most uncommon mobs, so just making it stronger, faster, flatter arc or quicker is going to be even more overpowered. I frequently kill skeletons with a stone sword, with them only managing to get one or two shots off. If they are getting four off against you, something is not quite right, either there are actually several skellies in the area or you are charging your bow for far too long. Either way, your skill can improve to counter this.

2) It doesn't fit into the mod at the moment.

Yes the first crossbows were 5th C traps in China (Dispenser). They didn't come to Europe as a serious weapon until the medieval era, and it would be the only piece of distinctive medieval technology in the mod, everything else is early dark ages or even earlier. And your examples of the waterwheel and the gearbox being proof of medieval technology is just laughable. You are massively disrespecting our earliest ancestors with what I can only assume is ignorance.

3) Some people do like to shoot down every idea and not every idea is going to be received in the same way by everyone. Some people will love it, some will hate it. That really is just life and the way the internet is.

4) You brought up the idea of a crossbow by saying "We have to consider the crossbow".

This is working from the "Cool Idea" Backwards to the function. The first thing you brought up was the name of the thing you wanted to include then tried to shuffle it into the mod. I can't put this in a more clear way, start with the function you want. You have not been at all clear with the function you want it to have in the mod, thus we can only assume, you are not clear on the function you want added, but you are very clear that this fuzzy ever-being-adjusted function is going to be catered for by the crossbow.

If you don't get why that is the wrong way to work, I cannot help you any more - this is why I don't teach!