New Release! (BTW V2.99)

[Dralnalak]

I'm actually really fond of the wood tanning recipe, even if it is temporary. I had to go on an epic ocean-spanning journey to find the resources for efficient tanning. Something about having to import foreign flora for agricultural and industrial purposes is satisfying.

I know I'm going to sound dumb here, maybe it's that I just woke up after a long nap in the middle of the night, but I'm trying to figure out the advantage of half blocks over full blocks for a BD bit counter. Any help?

I completely agree on that. I also find that it's more satisfying for me to farm up the tanning material I need before automation and then more of a challenge to automate once I'm doing the automation.


I'm also very glad FlowerChild put that recipe in. I spent hours roaming my most recent world until I had a full stack of leather for crafting purposes, not to mention several 16-sized stacks of eggs to create a chicken farm and a number of other materials, and never saw a single wolf in that entire time.

[FlowerChild]

EDIT: Okay, THAT'S what he meant by off blocks. Duh. But why not just use glass blocks, or bricks to achieve the same result?

Because when they are retracted, they stack with similar objects, meaning if you wanted 15 off bits, and one on, you'd need 15 varieties of half-blocks or otherwise partially transparent blocks.

The 16 color wool slabs don't stack with those of other colors, so it offers an easier alternative.

[PuppetRebel]

So, was the hardcore bucket thing inspired by the utopia challenge?

Nope, I can't say I've been following that thread. It actually came from me playing Terraria last weekend and realizing I was having some fun channeling water towards lava pools to make obsidian. I don't much care for that game overall, other than as an occasional diversion, but that aspect did strike me as fun.

I've never been a fan of the whole finite-water (the idea, not the mod) thing in Minecraft though as I knew it would be too huge a performance hit to expect something like that in SMP.

So I was considering what the problem really was with MC water that prevented that kind of interesting channel mechanic, and realized it just came down to the ability to transport water source-blocks.

Anyways, playing through the mod with that setting in place convinced me it was right. I had way more fun building an automated chicken farm and mill than I've had with those kinds of activities in a long time. It becomes less about following an established plan, and more about having to think on the fly to adapt your contraption to your surroundings. You also run into interesting changes in your thought process, like preserving underground streams that you find instead of plugging them up.

I think it brings a lot of subtle changes to the way the game is played, that makes it much more interesting overall. Also, it does a couple of interesting things for the mod's tech-tree. First, obviously it serves to further differentiate wind mills and water wheels, giving them each more of a distinct role even when you have access to both. Secondly, it makes a good portion of the tech-tree dependent on the player finding diamonds, as it's no longer possible to build a nether-portal using molds. I think both of these items are good for the mod overall.

Depending on how people like it, I may eventually make it the default for the mod and start building features around it as well. It opens up a lot of interesting possibilities design-wise.

Well, since I "artificially" put the limit on me as dictated by the challenge I have had SOOO much more fun in general. This change just really feels right in so many ways. Within the mod, within the game. I think it's brilliant.

[FlowerChild]

Well, since I "artificially" put the limit on me as dictated by the challenge I have had SOOO much more fun in general. This change just really feels right in so many ways. Within the mod, within the game. I think it's brilliant.

Yeah, I think it's the right way to go. It surprises me how many time Notch seems to shoot his own gameplay in the foot with overpowered features on an otherwise interesting system. I feel exactly the same way about bone meal.

Anyways, I'm very happy with how everyone is reacting to this change so far. I was actually thinking it might really piss some people off, but given that the support seems almost unanimous, I'm feeling much more positive about potentially making this a default setting for the mod.

I really don't like changing default vanilla behavior, especially when it comes to nerfing it, but this just seems to have such a positive impact on the game it feels like it's a case where I should make an exception.

[Brethern]

So apparently pre generated water springs require blocks to be placed to accept hardcore water.

Also on a side note my mineshaft is underwater.

[Necropolis]

Because when they are retracted, they stack with similar objects, meaning if you wanted 15 off bits, and one on, you'd need 15 varieties of half-blocks or otherwise partially transparent blocks.

The 16 color wool slabs don't stack with those of other colors, so it offers an easier alternative.

Gotcha. I've actually had problems with that in the past, it makes more sense now. Thank you for the response.

Anyways, I'm very happy with how everyone is reacting to this change so far. I was actually thinking it might really piss some people off, but given that the support seems almost unanimous, I'm feeling much more positive about potentially making this a default setting for the mod.

I like the change in theory, but there are definitely circumstances where I wouldn't want it -- my sky civilization for one. If you do go that route, config settings to turn it off?

[FlowerChild]

I like the change in theory, but there are definitely circumstances where I wouldn't want it -- my sky civilization for one. If you do go that route, config settings to turn it off?

Oh, for sure. I wouldn't do anything other than set the default value to 1 in the config file. It'll always be an option, I've just been debating as to whether to make it the default.

Making it the default comes with a certain assumption that it is the way the mod is meant to be played. Therefore, I'd feel much more comfortable building features around that setting. At that point, there can't really be any complaints that I'm wasting resources on blocks that don't even apply to the default settings, if you understand what I mean. The assumption would be that if the devices aren't useful to you, it's because you're not playing the mod as intended.

[FlowerChild]

So apparently pre generated water springs require blocks to be placed to accept hardcore water.

Also on a side note my mineshaft is underwater.

I really have no idea what the fuck you're saying here :)

[Dralnalak]

Anyways, I'm very happy with how everyone is reacting to this change so far. I was actually thinking it might really piss some people off, but given that the support seems almost unanimous, I'm feeling much more positive about potentially making this a default setting for the mod.

I don't see it as likely to piss people off as we can turn hardcore water off in the config file. As long as you leave that option in, those of us who do not like it can just turn the mode off.

I love Better Than Wolves and consider it a requirement for playing Minecraft anymore. (Trying out the 1.8 update before BTW was updated made me realize just how much I valued the challenges presented by the BTW tech tree and components.) That doesn't mean I'm going to agree 100% with everything in the mod (or any other mod I use). If I don't like something, I just don't use it.

I expect I will always turn off this new hardcore water mode for a regular play world. It's an interesting addition and I can see how a lot of people will enjoy it. It's just not my cup of tea.



Sorry to post something against a new feature in the release thread. I look at the potential with the rest of the new changes and I'm very excited. I'd have long ago quit playing Minecraft if it wasn't for your ever-changing and interesting features list.

[Brethern]

So apparently pre generated water springs require blocks to be placed to accept hardcore water.

Also on a side note my mineshaft is underwater.

I really have no idea what the fuck you're saying here :)

According to the changes you should be able to pick up water anywhere right? And flowing water should continue flowing until impeded.

If the water was generated before this release and then switch to hardcore. The stream will stop at it's previous state and you can't pick water up from it. You have to place blocks to reload the stream apparently.

[Urian]

Sounds like an interesting change :) I can't say I can see myself ever using the hardcore bucket mode though (except for testing) since my worlds usually rely very heavily on water mechanics with things like EATS-roads, water elevators, long distance item transportation, etc. It will however be interesting to see how automated systems will be build in HCB, I foresee some challenges there :p

[FlowerChild]

According to the changes you should be able to pick up water anywhere right?

Yeah, that part is right: from any block of water whether source or not.

And flowing water should continue flowing until impeded.

I have no idea what that part means, and don't believe I've said anything to that effect.

If the water was generated before this release and then switch to hardcore. The stream will stop at it's previous state and you can't pick water up from it. You have to place blocks to reload the stream apparently.

Switching it to hardcore should have no effect. I'll test this to make sure.

[MoRmEnGiL]

Sounds like an interesting change :) I can't say I can see myself ever using the hardcore bucket mode though (except for testing) since my worlds usually rely very heavily on water mechanics with things like EATS-roads, water elevators, long distance item transportation, etc. It will however be interesting to see how automated systems will be build in HCB, I foresee some challenges there :p

Exactly my thoughts on the matter :]

I'd probably start a different world to play with this new change, but I wouldn't want it in my main BtW world.

But since I cannot test it (will never ever update to 1.8. Ever) how exactly does water work now? When you place a water bucket what exactly happens?

[FlowerChild]

According to the changes you should be able to pick up water anywhere right? And flowing water should continue flowing until impeded.

If the water was generated before this release and then switch to hardcore. The stream will stop at it's previous state and you can't pick water up from it. You have to place blocks to reload the stream apparently.

Just re-tested it fully on existing water sources, etc.

Again, no idea what the heck you're talking about here man. If you're having problems, you're going to have to be a lot more specific, because I'm seeing none with the info you've provided.

[FlowerChild]

Sounds like an interesting change :) I can't say I can see myself ever using the hardcore bucket mode though (except for testing) since my worlds usually rely very heavily on water mechanics with things like EATS-roads, water elevators, long distance item transportation, etc. It will however be interesting to see how automated systems will be build in HCB, I foresee some challenges there :p

Oh yeah, it's definitely more difficult, but that's why it's fun :)

So far I've had no problems building simple automated systems using it (like the auto chicken-farm and auto-mill I mentioned earlier), and I can't think of anything that would really be impossible doing it.

Just more thinking involved at every stage.

[Brethern]

According to the changes you should be able to pick up water anywhere right? And flowing water should continue flowing until impeded.

If the water was generated before this release and then switch to hardcore. The stream will stop at it's previous state and you can't pick water up from it. You have to place blocks to reload the stream apparently.

Just re-tested it fully on existing water sources, etc.

Again, no idea what the heck you're talking about here man. If you're having problems, you're going to have to be a lot more specific, because I'm seeing none with the info you've provided.

I'm going to assume that it's me misunderstanding something, since no one else is reporting an issue.

[Urian]

Aye, most automated systems should still be possible although need some more planning. A potential problem is for those of who prefer bases to be on the surface if there is no mountain/hill with a water source but underground bases can still do it with some water planning (I foresee a need for understanding how water flow direction is determined though if you want efficiency :p )

[FlowerChild]

Just for an example, here's a few pics of the chicken-farm I built while playing through the mod with hardcore buckets enabled:

Spoiler

Show

Just the standard coup of aquatic chickens, frolicking in swamp run-off:



Inlet for side channel. There's one of these on each side:



Second level underground, water-flow is still off of the swamp source-blocks:



Inlets flow in through either side to channel drops into the center:



Flow continues to Hopper:

Other than the inlets, the only real additional concern was that the water only flows 7 blocks before requiring a step-down instead of the 8 with source-blocks.

[ilovekintoki]

Cool stuff. Just a thought, since you can now pick up non-source lava blocks, could it be possible to use that and a one-source lava pool to have infinite fuel? If I remember correctly, using lava as fuel doesn't consume the bucket anymore.

[jorgebonafe]

Anyways, I'm very happy with how everyone is reacting to this change so far. I was actually thinking it might really piss some people off, but given that the support seems almost unanimous, I'm feeling much more positive about potentially making this a default setting for the mod.

I also like this change. It certainly makes things more challenging, and making new automated systems with this setting much more rewarding.

I do wonder though how the "gen pop" will take this change.

[FlowerChild]

Cool stuff. Just a thought, since you can now pick up non-source lava blocks, could it be possible to use that and a one-source lava pool to have infinite fuel? If I remember correctly, using lava as fuel doesn't consume the bucket anymore.

Hmmm...good point. I should probably disable picking up lava with buckets entirely in this mode. It's always struck me as fairly retarded anyways.

[Rosethorns]

Really liking the new release (omg bleaching wool)

As for the hardcore bucket mode, while I appreciate the new mechanic, I don't like the idea that because of the way minecraft water currently works means you would be driven underground eventually. Being that water only travels 5 (without checking) blocks before you need to bring it down. it also means you can't have level aquaducts.. but thats a cosmetic thing rather than functional.

SO not saying the change is bad, just saying that the behavior of vanilla water would stop me from appreciating your change how I would personally want to.

If I could have the behavior of finite water without the finite part (as in water has volume and uphill sources will force water along it's path until it comes to a stopping point, like a pit or all cardinal directions blocked except the upstream direction.

It's a ramble, has nothing to do with BTW, but it's what stops me from enjoying liquid in minecraft let alone your bucket modification. I absolutely loath minecraft liquid.

[Brethern]

Cool stuff. Just a thought, since you can now pick up non-source lava blocks, could it be possible to use that and a one-source lava pool to have infinite fuel? If I remember correctly, using lava as fuel doesn't consume the bucket anymore.

Hmmm...good point. I should probably disable picking up lava with buckets entirely in this mode. It's always struck me as fairly retarded anyways.

We can't place lava sources and to my knowledge the furnace eats the bucket. Is it really worth the effort to save someone three iron if they use magma as fuel?

[FlowerChild]

We can't place lava sources and to my knowledge the furnace eats the bucket. Is it really worth the effort to save someone three iron if they use magma as fuel?

If it eats the bucket, I couldn't care less. However, the previous poster was saying this is no longer the case.

EDIT: Tested and it DOES NOT eat the bucket. Guys, for Pete's sake, can you please test statements out like this before making them? It seriously wastes my time when I have to chase around false claims.

[Brethern]

We can't place lava sources and to my knowledge the furnace eats the bucket. Is it really worth the effort to save someone three iron if they use magma as fuel?

If it eats the bucket, I couldn't care less. However, the previous poster was saying this is no longer the case.

EDIT: Tested and it DOES NOT eat the bucket. Guys, for Pete's sake, can you please test statements out like this before making them? It seriously wastes my time when I have to chase around false claims.

Sorry about that. I didn't realize that you got the bucket back. I guess that teaches me not to trust what I think I know about minecraft.