Combining mods - Tech Progression and Gameplay

[Gilberreke]

Yeah man, it's not that we don't value your opinion, it's just that your arguments go against the premise of the thread.

If a guy posts a thread about loving turnip and asking people for fertilizer advice, you wouldn't go in and argue the superiority of carrots either.

[MagusUnion]

Your idea SEEMS very linear, stacking item prereqs.together in such a fashion as to 'tier' into each mod for their functionality.

What I'm suggesting is a non-linear, or paralleling tech tree where each mod runs together simultaneously, in such a way that they could work without the added recipe changes, but at the same time only cross on common paths when working with particular items. (like handling ores, plants, and such differently)

(If I'm not banned, I'll post a diagram of what I mean)

[Gilberreke]

Your idea SEEMS very linear, stacking item prereqs.together in such a fashion as to 'tier' into each mod for their functionality.

What I'm suggesting is a non-linear, or paralleling tech tree where each mod runs together simultaneously, in such a way that they could work without the added recipe changes, but at the same time only cross on common paths when working with particular items. (like handling ores, plants, and such differently)

(If I'm not banned, I'll post a diagram of what I mean)

Well, that's a nice idea. Only problem is it is totally off-topic in this thread.

[jorgebonafe]

(If I'm not banned, I'll post a diagram of what I mean)

I'd like to see it... Any ideas that could merge the mods in an interesting way are welcome, imo...

[MagusUnion]

Well, that's a nice idea. Only problem is it is totally off-topic in this thread.

I'll just start a separate one then... :-/

[walker_boh_65]

Your idea SEEMS very linear, stacking item prereqs.together in such a fashion as to 'tier' into each mod for their functionality.

What I'm suggesting is a non-linear, or paralleling tech tree where each mod runs together simultaneously, in such a way that they could work without the added recipe changes, but at the same time only cross on common paths when working with particular items. (like handling ores, plants, and such differently)

(If I'm not banned, I'll post a diagram of what I mean)

Ive been reading the thread from the moment it got derailed, and while i haven't seen your side of it (due to the fact that i dont think i am fully understanding where you are coming from) i would love to see a diagram

[gftweek]

I like the linear nature, it adds a timeline to the use of mods, prehistoric (vMC), renaissance (BTW), industrial (BC), technological (IC2), magical (EE).

The last one kind of fits if you follow the quote (I forget, it may have been Issac Asimov): Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. I guess you could put put redpower/logic between IC2 and EE for the information/computer era too.

Some tools become obsolete (pickaxe replaced by mining drill for example), others get improved with new technology, but some things are always required (we still need rope and farmed food).

I'm currently playing with EE, IC2, BC and BTW, but haven't really given them much of a go on their own (apart from BTW of course), so I'm just fiddling with what seems fun about each one and figuring things out (like what I should have disabled to prevent my BC oil refinery from exploding), but after that I'd be very keen to follow a mod config setup such as the suggested one here.

[Mason11987]

Well, that's a nice idea. Only problem is it is totally off-topic in this thread.

I'll just start a separate one then... :-/

Feel free to post it here. I disagree with Gilberreke, that was quite the rude response from him.

A way to combine the mods without immediately obsoleting many items would be interesting. My idea was a restriction of one mod until you get near the end of another, but if you have another one, feel free to share it.

Perhaps if you outline how you would better combine these mods, it might open up another avenue to think about.

[MagusUnion]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... n_US#gid=0

The following is a chart showing what blocks are commonly consumed by which Forge Mods. Stone includes all Cobble as well as Obsidian. Flowers include mushrooms in it's equation. Bonemeal also includes Bones at base, and Dusts only refer to Redstone, Glowstone, and Lapus Luzi (Bear in mind that where it says 'Alchemy', I'm talking about Apoticarium, and not EE)...

For example, IC^2 has a rating of 'XXXXX', meaning that 50% of the time you are using IC^2, you will be handling Ore. Same with BTW, 50% when handling any item, it will most likely be Wood.

From there, you can build a 'tech tree' around which resources are going to be used the most. For example, the only time Redpower touches Sand is via the creation of Glass for lighting. All other times, that mod will not use glass in any of it's other recipes for its items. Thus, the tree would render sand a 'least-important' item for that mod in the tree, but at the same time, it would emphasis glass with a high importance overall due to it's consumption via BC for piping and item distribution because it is apart of the mod cluster being used.

Granted, this chart isn't terribly precise, but the idea is that tech tress can be based around items that you consume the least/most, INSTEAD of baseing them around which resources you can have access too. For instance, the higher you climb into the IC^2 tech tree, the greater your need for iron becomes. This creates a 'consumption penalty' where the more you use a mod, the more you have to feed X amount of materials to sustain it. Likewise, when you start lower in a tech tree, the less of a consumption you are required to partake in due to the fact that you do not have that many machines, blocks, entities to feed at that time period (which the goal, ofc, during this is to create said items anyway for better manufacturing methods)...

[Mason11987]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... n_US#gid=0

The following is a chart showing what blocks are commonly consumed by which Forge Mods. Stone includes all Cobble as well as Obsidian. Flowers include mushrooms in it's equation. Bonemeal also includes Bones at base, and Dusts only refer to Redstone, Glowstone, and Lapus Luzi (Bear in mind that where it says 'Alchemy', I'm talking about Apoticarium, and not EE)...

For example, IC^2 has a rating of 'XXXXX', meaning that 50% of the time you are using IC^2, you will be handling Ore. Same with BTW, 50% when handling any item, it will most likely be Wood.

From there, you can build a 'tech tree' around which resources are going to be used the most. For example, the only time Redpower touches Sand is via the creation of Glass for lighting. All other times, that mod will not use glass in any of it's other recipes for its items. Thus, the tree would render sand a 'least-important' item for that mod in the tree, but at the same time, it would emphasis glass with a high importance overall due to it's consumption via BC for piping and item distribution because it is apart of the mod cluster being used.

Granted, this chart isn't terribly precise, but the idea is that tech tress can be based around items that you consume the least/most, INSTEAD of baseing them around which resources you can have access too. For instance, the higher you climb into the IC^2 tech tree, the greater your need for iron becomes. This creates a 'consumption penalty' where the more you use a mod, the more you have to feed X amount of materials to sustain it. Likewise, when you start lower in a tech tree, the less of a consumption you are required to partake in due to the fact that you do not have that many machines, blocks, entities to feed at that time period (which the goal, ofc, during this is to create said items anyway for better manufacturing methods)...

Looks like I need to get access, you can make it public somehow I think.

[MagusUnion]

Looks like I need to get access, you can make it public somehow I think.

Gah! Try it again... forgot about that, sorry...

[Mason11987]

Looks like I need to get access, you can make it public somehow I think.

Gah! Try it again... forgot about that, sorry...

I think I get where you're coming from with this, but I can't see a way to avoid the issue of complete obsolescence. Why use the hopper/water when obsidian/diamond pipes are fairly cheap and can do almost everything easier. Why even bother getting to steel? It's much easier to build a simple solar farm and a mining drill. IC2 and buildcraft can combine nicely, but you can't really add BTW because so much of it's tech is hard to get compared to IC2, and not nearly as useful.

It does offer things like the BD, and DB, as well as the pulley system and special pressure plates, but cauldron is nearly useless with IC2 induction furnace, and the endgame BTW stuff isn't worth it anymore.

Part of my idea for this was to avoid those problems by making BTW items necessary to progress in IC2, just like the saw is necessary to make steel in BTW.

Steel pick will have a time when it's useful just like cobble picks do too.

[MagusUnion]

I think I get where you're coming from with this, but I can't see a way to avoid the issue of complete obsolescence. Why use the hopper/water when obsidian/diamond pipes are fairly cheap and can do almost everything easier. Why even bother getting to steel? It's much easier to build a simple solar farm and a mining drill. IC2 and buildcraft can combine nicely, but you can't really add BTW because so much of it's tech is hard to get compared to IC2, and not nearly as useful.

It does offer things like the BD, and DB, as well as the pulley system and special pressure plates, but cauldron is nearly useless with IC2 induction furnace, and the endgame BTW stuff isn't worth it anymore.

Part of my idea for this was to avoid those problems by making BTW items necessary to progress in IC2, just like the saw is necessary to make steel in BTW.

Steel pick will have a time when it's useful just like cobble picks do too.

True, on alot of things, but at the same token, there are plenty of things each mod does separately. For instance, Cauldrons don't consume EU when mass cooking food (which is a heavy requirement in 1.8). Same as Steel Tools: Long usage in the expense of limited lifetime. Powered tools alter this by having unlimited life, at the cost of constant EU consumption...

In that regard, BTW is built around 'gated resources': where it's not common to have constant availability to items, but once you do you consistently have them.
Other mods are built around 'constant resources': where expensive items are available, but you consume them almost immediately when you need to use them.

Thus you can plan around where you want to invest your resources for whichever mods you have installed. If you are running low on EU and need to venture outwards, you can spend some spare metal for Steel for short-term tools or armor. Likewise, if you need to quickly grow wheat, but don't have the means to defend yourself against mobs, you can spend some of your dusts for Fertilizer chemicals and grow wheat via Alchemy...

I know it may seem like BTW may have ineffective items in it's mod set, but remember that they also don't cost nearly as much resources to upkeep than the energy-whoring IC^2 machines do... (or the oil-hungry, environmental harming BC engines do as well... lol)

[Gilberreke]

-snip-

What? How is that a tech tree? Can you give an example of a change you would implement to better integrate these mods using your system?

[MagusUnion]

What? How is that a tech tree? Can you give an example of a change you would implement to better integrate these mods using your system?

I can do it better in terms of an example:

---------------------------------------------------------------
I've just spawned into a world... my first actions are punching (lol) a tree down and obtaining 6 logs. Then I convert them into wood planks and a crafting table.

My tech level is: vMC

I create a Wooden Pickaxe, and grab some cobblestone along with a few pieces of Coal. I now have the option of creating a Millstone, plus a hand crank.

My tech level is: vMC, BTW

I use the stone to build a shelter, along with some torches, and stone tools. One of which is a Stone Hoe where I can grab some Hemp seeds.

My Tech level is: vMC, BTW

As I continue to dig, I collect 12 copper ore, 11 iron ore, and 32 coal...

My tech level is still: vMC, BTW, but I'm close to the option of getting into IC^2 materials.

Afterwords, I smelt all the iron and copper ore, shear a sheep for wool for a quick bed, and then rapidly sleep to avoid mobs. Once day breaks, I find a rubber tree and quickly collect resin.

My tech level is: vMC, BTW, and Tier 1 IC^2
---------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, my tech level is based around the resources I have access to. The more resources I can obtain, the 'higher' I climb into my tech ladder with my ability to craft more and more items from each mod. Thus the goal becomes one where I need to collect the materials necessary for building higher grade items and tools, as well as maintaining said tools post-production...

[jorgebonafe]

This seems to me to be just the way the mods are now....

[MagusUnion]

This seems to me to be just the way the mods are now....

Right. What I wanted to show was.. I guess.. a better light on the current system in regards to the approach as to how to handle 'OMGsomanyITEMZ' or the feeling of 'Mod X is more OP than Mod Y' kinda feel that some may get when combining these powerful systems together. (Because let's face it, BTW alone is pretty stong. Having the option of BTW, IC^2, BC all together can be very intense to get around)...

Each mod's techs are designed differently. Each feel for each mod is designed custom for that mod alone. At that same token, the rewards from each mod are not all the same. For instance, you could farm tons of wood using a chainsaw and generating loads of energy for it, |OR| you could instead invest in a mechanical energy saw, and harvest more planks from wood using that, and never have to spend anymore energy than a windmill will emit. The BTW's option saves not only EU, but the need to refuel items on a consistent basis that can tax your standby resources a great deal.

Another issue you also have to consider is resource cost when it comes to handling all these materials. There's alot of risk that is involved in obtaining metals and ore, which I also think is an overlooked factor seeing how naturally equated we've become at collecting blocks in MC. There is resource risk and rarity to consider when it comes to constantly build machines and other structures. And in alot of circumstances, you can find yourself coming short on 'that one item' you just need in order to complete your setups.

[Gilberreke]

-snip-

No, my question is, what is your on-topic answer for this thread? Being: how can we mod/change the mods to better fit together into one tech tree.

You explained an alternate idea of a tech tree, but I see no suggestion of what you would change

[jorgebonafe]

This seems to me to be just the way the mods are now....

Right. What I wanted to show was.. I guess.. a better light on the current system in regards to the approach as to how to handle 'OMGsomanyITEMZ' or the feeling of 'Mod X is more OP than Mod Y' kinda feel that some may get when combining these powerful systems together. (Because let's face it, BTW alone is pretty stong. Having the option of BTW, IC^2, BC all together can be very intense to get around)...

Each mod's techs are designed differently. Each feel for each mod is designed custom for that mod alone. At that same token, the rewards from each mod are not all the same. For instance, you could farm tons of wood using a chainsaw and generating loads of energy for it, |OR| you could instead invest in a mechanical energy saw, and harvest more planks from wood using that, and never have to spend anymore energy than a windmill will emit. The BTW's option saves not only EU, but the need to refuel items on a consistent basis that can tax your standby resources a great deal.

Another issue you also have to consider is resource cost when it comes to handling all these materials. There's alot of risk that is involved in obtaining metals and ore, which I also think is an overlooked factor seeing how naturally equated we've become at collecting blocks in MC. There is resource risk and rarity to consider when it comes to constantly build machines and other structures. And in alot of circumstances, you can find yourself coming short on 'that one item' you just need in order to complete your setups.

I see what you are saying, but the thing is... to anyone that want to play the way you a re saying, which I guess is basically unchanged, well, they can just go ahead and play it.... We making this tech tree modifications wont spoil the fun for people that like the way it is, because they just don't have to install this... But for the others, me included, this thread is proposing a different way... So yeah, it does limits the tech evolution, it does forces the player to progress through the mods to evolve, but that is the whole point...

[MagusUnion]

-snip-

No, my question is, what is your on-topic answer for this thread? Being: how can we mod/change the mods to better fit together into one tech tree.

You explained an alternate idea of a tech tree, but I see no suggestion of what you would change

Probably just a massive overhaul via Custom Recipes. Since you've found a mod that does something similar, then I guess what you could do is:

- Require all Machine Blocks to use Steel (instead of Tempered Iron)
- Have pipes require Stone Panels, ontop of all current recipes for item transportation
- Fibers instead of Cacti String for Waterproof pipes
- P. Stone require 4 Concentrated Hellfire Bars, 4 UU Matter, and 1 Diamond (can NOT be industrial grade)

... for your model, those would be the changes I can think of off the top of my head...

[Mason11987]

-snip-

No, my question is, what is your on-topic answer for this thread? Being: how can we mod/change the mods to better fit together into one tech tree.

You explained an alternate idea of a tech tree, but I see no suggestion of what you would change

Probably just a massive overhaul via Custom Recipes. Since you've found a mod that does something similar, then I guess what you could do is:

- Require all Machine Blocks to use Steel (instead of Tempered Iron)
- Have pipes require Stone Panels, ontop of all current recipes for item transportation
- Fibers instead of Cacti String for Waterproof pipes
- P. Stone require 4 Concentrated Hellfire Bars, 4 UU Matter, and 1 Diamond (can NOT be industrial grade)

... for your model, those would be the changes I can think of off the top of my head...

I like the idea of hellfire bars, although they may be really cheap by the time you get 4 UU matter (since you'll already have steel by the time you do much of anything with IC2).

I like the other suggestions though, although having cacti string necessary for waterproof pipes actually gave them a purpose for once, perhaps both?

[MagusUnion]

I like the idea of hellfire bars, although they may be really cheap by the time you get 4 UU matter (since you'll already have steel by the time you do much of anything with IC2).

I like the other suggestions though, although having cacti string necessary for waterproof pipes actually gave them a purpose for once, perhaps both?

Both could work. But remember that biomes are alot bigger in 1.8, and in some cases you won't come across cacti due to the sheer size of, say, a forest biome or such (I know I haven't found a desert in my 'Let's Play' series)... Having it require Hemp Fibers would extend the time until you could use said type of pipes, but also make their availability much more possible by not having a biome dependent item attached to the recipe itself.

The Concentrated Hellfire part was mostly for 'story' reasons. For instance, "the 'demonic' power of alchemy can only be acquired via the dark, forging of lost souls (hell bars) with the raw essence of (UU) matter crafted onto a crystal of ultimate purity (diamond)..." It's not meant to purely be a "balanced" based recipe (because either way, it's a tad bit difficult to balance anything around EE anyway), but something that fits in the tree, and also has interesting reasons as to why it requires those parts... lol...

[Mason11987]

I like the idea of hellfire bars, although they may be really cheap by the time you get 4 UU matter (since you'll already have steel by the time you do much of anything with IC2).

I like the other suggestions though, although having cacti string necessary for waterproof pipes actually gave them a purpose for once, perhaps both?

Both could work. But remember that biomes are alot bigger in 1.8, and in some cases you won't come across cacti due to the sheer size of, say, a forest biome or such (I know I haven't found a desert in my 'Let's Play' series)... Having it require Hemp Fibers would extend the time until you could use said type of pipes, but also make their availability much more possible by not having a biome dependent item attached to the recipe itself.

The Concentrated Hellfire part was mostly for 'story' reasons. For instance, "the 'demonic' power of alchemy can only be acquired via the dark, forging of lost souls (hell bars) with the raw essence of (UU) matter crafted onto a crystal of ultimate purity (diamond)..." It's not meant to purely be a "balanced" based recipe (because either way, it's a tad bit difficult to balance anything around EE anyway), but something that fits in the tree, and also has interesting reasons as to why it requires those parts... lol...

Yeah, most times I've played without BTW I've not really encountered desserts, but wheN I'm looking for wolves... yeah, I find them because I walk day journeys in every direction lol. One thing to consider, if cactus stayed for waterproofing, would be to utilize filiment for some things, which require glowstone, redstone, and hemp (normally). I'm not sure where but I could see that having a place in the IC2/buildcraft world.

[gftweek]

Both could work. But remember that biomes are alot bigger in 1.8, and in some cases you won't come across cacti due to the sheer size of, say, a forest biome or such (I know I haven't found a desert in my 'Let's Play' series)... Having it require Hemp Fibers would extend the time until you could use said type of pipes, but also make their availability much more possible by not having a biome dependent item attached to the recipe itself.

The Concentrated Hellfire part was mostly for 'story' reasons. For instance, "the 'demonic' power of alchemy can only be acquired via the dark, forging of lost souls (hell bars) with the raw essence of (UU) matter crafted onto a crystal of ultimate purity (diamond)..." It's not meant to purely be a "balanced" based recipe (because either way, it's a tad bit difficult to balance anything around EE anyway), but something that fits in the tree, and also has interesting reasons as to why it requires those parts... lol...

Yeah, most times I've played without BTW I've not really encountered desserts, but wheN I'm looking for wolves... yeah, I find them because I walk day journeys in every direction lol. One thing to consider, if cactus stayed for waterproofing, would be to utilize filiment for some things, which require glowstone, redstone, and hemp (normally). I'm not sure where but I could see that having a place in the IC2/buildcraft world.

I usually go looking for a desert as soon as I start a world, so I can find a village, and it's also the most likely place to find BC oil deposits isn't it? Plus, don't have to worry about storms affecting windmills, and it's easier to find mob drops till you have a grinder built (nothing hiding in long grass), and sometimes you can find surface dungeons, so they are my favourite biome.

[Gilberreke]

I usually go looking for a desert as soon as I start a world, so I can find a village, and it's also the most likely place to find BC oil deposits isn't it?

Oil deposits are most commonly found in forest biomes I think. Deserts only feature small oil pits.