Combining mods - Tech Progression and Gameplay

[jorgebonafe]

The truth is that I don't think EE fits at all with the rest.... That mining ring that you make let's you get sooo many resources so fast its not even fun... I mean, I don't particularly like to mine for hours, but then there are several good alternatives.... buildcraft machines, or my personal favorite, dynamite sticks from IC2. But with EE you get everything so fast, it just ruins the game, for me, at least... UU matter seem to me a good idea to make a philosophizer's stone in a state of the game where you basically already have most of the tech level you will need and then you just want, like, massive amounts of resources to build bigger things with..... Thats just my opinion, but even UU matter is not so hard to get in the end, if you think about it.

[Magmarashi]

You really don't get that stuff in EE super fast, and that item that lets you blast holes in walls eats up fuel at an insane speed. You can reduce 20 stacks of redstone to nothing in seconds, and come out with only mostly cobblestone.

[jorgebonafe]

Maybe you don't, but I sure do :P Specially iron, which is the base for all machines in IC2, becomes really easy to get. About the fuel, make some glowstone aggregators and you are set.

[MagusUnion]

You really don't get that stuff in EE super fast by itself, and that item that lets you blast holes in walls eats up fuel at an insane speed.

Fixed.

The problem is not EE as a mod. The problem is EE with other mods... quite a jarring difference there... I can also bet that alot of the 'tech tree' issues people are posting about in this thread are actually related to combining EE with anything else nearly as powerful as it is, and in return making the gameplay experience far too easy than it needs to be.

[Brethern]

You really don't get that stuff in EE super fast by itself, and that item that lets you blast holes in walls eats up fuel at an insane speed.

Fixed.

The problem is not EE as a mod. The problem is EE with other mods... quite a jarring difference there... I can also bet that alot of the 'tech tree' issues people are posting about in this thread are actually related to combining EE with anything else nearly as powerful as it is, and in return making the gameplay experience far too easy than it needs to be.

Pretty much, it takes at least three hours to get enough diamonds to start EE using just EE.

[Mason11987]

You answered your own question in the quote you questioned.

You'll only start saying things like I say things if you keep trying hard to make less sense while trying hard to make sense...

Well, using UU Matter for this is a good way to make EE end-game... Making IC machines would be much harder having to use a crucible, and making a mass fabricator would be a very late game item...

Yeah, but wouldn't that be overly expensive? ...

Overly expensive as compared to the ability to turn cobblestone into diamonds and craft the extermely powerful EE items? I don't think so.

I think EE potentially has a place in a combo mod pack if only because even late game IC2 and Buildcraft stuff is only just "okay" at transforming the world to what you want to make of it. EE (especially if you can add recipes tying it into the other mods) can be where you go once you have far more energy then you need in IC2, and huge piles of cobblestone from your array of quarries in Buildcraft. What's next? Flatten mountains, organize/compress your items, drastically speed up your farms, build structures QUICKLY (P. Stone). None of those things are really possible easily without EE, and those seem like fun things to do once you've ran through everything else.

P.Stone is basically the foundation of EE and making it only accessible after you've done everything else shouldn't ruin the experience.

On a related note I've ran through most of the BTW tech tree in my game, and I think just making refined iron just from iron in the crucible will be too cheap, I feel like it'd be too easy to abandon BTW after that point. I think requiring coal dust (BTW) at least would blend the two mods better.

I think hafts for buildcraft stuff is a good fit though, it requires me to keep up my tanning, and I'll probably build a stoking lever for my cauldron to switch between glue/tanning.

Edit - What would it take for the steel pick to work fast on copper/tin/uranium ore?

[morvelaira]

This is something I was thinking about doing myself, but I'd probably do an even stronger enforcement of the tech progression in a simpler state.

For example. I'd start a vanilla world. Once I'd hit the diamond reset and had a comfortable base going, I'd install BTW. With that same world, I'd start to progress through the tech tree. Once I'd hit the new age (because it would likely be here by the time I got there!) I'd install buildcraft. With the same world again, I'd play with that - probably having to move to a new chunk or three to get the new resources. Then IC2 after that.... etc.

That's my non-technical, can't code a damn bit way of going about it. >_>

[Magmarashi]

UU matter is dangerous to produce in mass quantities. It requires a massive input of power and produces very very slowly, and a Safe-setup reactor won't provide near enough energy to produce UU matter in any sizable amount. You have to take the time to produce several reactors or spend all the time to charge a bank of MSFUs, or run the risk of reducing your setup to a smoldering crater from unsafe nuclear usages. Even then, it is still restricted by speed and you might actually end up just using the UU matter to produce more Uranium to produce more UU matter etc etc, not really getting anywhere.

[jorgebonafe]

You'd be surprised how fast a single solar flower with 13 panels can accumulate 1 million EU, which is enough for 1 UU matter. That is not considering you can accelerate the process with scrap.

[Mason11987]

This is something I was thinking about doing myself, but I'd probably do an even stronger enforcement of the tech progression in a simpler state.

For example. I'd start a vanilla world. Once I'd hit the diamond reset and had a comfortable base going, I'd install BTW. With that same world, I'd start to progress through the tech tree. Once I'd hit the new age (because it would likely be here by the time I got there!) I'd install buildcraft. With the same world again, I'd play with that - probably having to move to a new chunk or three to get the new resources. Then IC2 after that.... etc.

That's my non-technical, can't code a damn bit way of going about it. >_>

I thought of doing this too, but I like having rubber trees around my world, and oil nearby so I can scout it out to take advantage much later. I also tend to explore a lot, especially with the recent additions, and I wouldn't want to have to go extremely far away to find any rubber trees or oil.

You'd be surprised how fast a single solar flower with 13 panels can accumulate 1 million EU, which is enough for 1 UU matter. That is not considering you can accelerate the process with scrap.

I"m curious, how long would it take? I tried doing the math from info on the IC2 wiki but it didn't seem right.

I do agree though, 9 UU matter (for example) is probably not expensive enough to allow transmutation with the P. Stone.

[jorgebonafe]

I"m curious, how long would it take? I tried doing the math from info on the IC2 wiki but it didn't seem right.

I do agree though, 9 UU matter (for example) is probably not expensive enough to allow transmutation with the P. Stone.

Minecraft day lasts 10 minutes, and which would be aprox. 12500 ticks. 13 Solar panels generate 13EU/t during the day, so that would be 162500EU. So, one million EU would take a little more then 6 days to fill with one solar flower. If you sleep during the night, that's one hour gameplay, if you never sleep, two hours.
I think that's correct, if I made any mistakes let me know.

[Magmarashi]

So, 1 UU a real hour if you don't accelerate the process with scrap.

It takes 9 to make a diamond, so 9 hours for 1 diamond. Soooo OP.

It doesn't even make enough of any other resource to Transmute to much helpful.

Ok, yes, you can make a load of Solar Flowers and Fabs but if you're making a load of energy collectors and Mass Fabs, you are having to put that collective effort and resources into it so it still isn't crazy. I can harvest more resources in the same time it would take to make a worthwhile Mass Fab farm.

[MagusUnion]

UU matter is dangerous to produce in mass quantities. It requires a massive input of power and produces very very slowly, and a Safe-setup reactor won't provide near enough energy to produce UU matter in any sizable amount..

Really?

Take a look at this then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u8vuMDY6hY

Now what was your argument about needing Nuclear for effective UU Matter production?

[jorgebonafe]

It takes 9 to make a diamond, so 9 hours for 1 diamond. Soooo OP.

Maybe I missed the point, but I wasn't talking about using a mass fabr. to make diamonds, but to make a P. Stone. After that, EE would be just about completelly free.

[Magmarashi]

Ok yeah I read that completely wrong, jorge. My bad.

Gotta stop posting right after I wake up.

Still, requiring UU matter in the P. Stone recipe would ensure at least some level of burning through another tech tree before it could be acquired.

UU matter is dangerous to produce in mass quantities. It requires a massive input of power and produces very very slowly, and a Safe-setup reactor won't provide near enough energy to produce UU matter in any sizable amount..

Really?

Take a look at this then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u8vuMDY6hY

Now what was your argument about needing Nuclear for effective UU Matter production?

Now, had you been paying attention to the point instead of just the words, the resource/time cost vs reward just isn't well balanced. You spend monumentally more time building massive systems to support something that doesn't actually produce you anything faster then a couple of picks and a fourth of the time.


edit: The biggest problem with BC, IC^2 and EE combined with each other (BTW or not) is the Macerator. Take iron, for example. One ore makes two dusts, each becoming 1 bar. 2 bars can make 3 glowstone, and 4 glowstone can become 2 Iron ore. If you pipe devices together properly and insert half a stack of iron, in short order you are breeding iron at an alarming rate. All because of the maceration step.

[Mason11987]

UU matter is dangerous to produce in mass quantities. It requires a massive input of power and produces very very slowly, and a Safe-setup reactor won't provide near enough energy to produce UU matter in any sizable amount..

Really?

Take a look at this then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u8vuMDY6hY

Now what was your argument about needing Nuclear for effective UU Matter production?

Could we stop with the attitude? Completely unnecessary. Jorge and magmarashi were having a discussion where they disagreed without someone acting like the above. I didn't make this thread so people could argue, but instead discuss ideas and point out anything that might be overlooked.

Why not just respond with "You can produce EU in large quantities even with watermills, check out my video"?

Now, had you been paying attention to the point instead of just the words, the resource/time cost vs reward just isn't well balanced. You spend monumentally more time building massive systems to support something that doesn't actually produce you anything faster then a couple of picks and a fourth of the time.

I think the idea here is we can take IC2, where you require massive amounts of energy to produce... irridium plates and Diamonds, which while cool aren't worth the effort normally, and change it so instead you can produce a philsopher's stone, which quite literally would open up an entire new world of options for your world.

When you build huge machines in IC2, you dont' really need more resources, you don't really need all that much UU or diamonds, but you certainly have buckets of stuff you don't really want (like cobble) and EE uniquely helps with that next step.

[jorgebonafe]

edit: The biggest problem with BC, IC^2 and EE combined with each other (BTW or not) is the Macerator. Take iron, for example. One ore makes two dusts, each becoming 1 bar. 2 bars can make 3 glowstone, and 4 glowstone can become 2 Iron ore. If you pipe devices together properly and insert half a stack of iron, in short order you are breeding iron at an alarming rate. All because of the maceration step.

On the current idea, the latest technology we can make is the IC² tech. In that, the latest we can make is the Mass Fabricator. Making EE available after that is the very limit we can postpone. Are you saying it is still not enough? Because, the only alternative IMO is removing EE completelly...

[Magmarashi]

edit: The biggest problem with BC, IC^2 and EE combined with each other (BTW or not) is the Macerator. Take iron, for example. One ore makes two dusts, each becoming 1 bar. 2 bars can make 3 glowstone, and 4 glowstone can become 2 Iron ore. If you pipe devices together properly and insert half a stack of iron, in short order you are breeding iron at an alarming rate. All because of the maceration step.

On the current idea, the latest technology we can make is the IC² tech. In that, the latest we can make is the Mass Fabricator. Making EE available after that is the very limit we can postpone. Are you saying it is still not enough? Because, the only alternative IMO is removing EE completelly...

I'm saying the Macerator ruins EE balance crazy fast. I put that 32 stack of Iron in my machine 15 minutes ago to this post, I now have 7 full stacks of iron. Basically, the recipes would have to be changed so you could not create breeding loops like the one I described above if you really really want balance AND EE.

[Gilberreke]

UU matter is IC²'s way of transmutation and it is highly inefficient compared to EE, which in turn balances that by requiring more resources.

It's only logical that a P. stone be made from UU matter. I love that idea. At that point, EE can start.

What we need is a way to get rid of the macerator advantage, which is indeed a real EE killer. I'm not sure how to fix that however, since it'd require you to not only change recipes, but also the gem of eternal density and other stuff.

[Stormweaver]

edit: The biggest problem with BC, IC^2 and EE combined with each other (BTW or not) is the Macerator. Take iron, for example. One ore makes two dusts, each becoming 1 bar. 2 bars can make 3 glowstone, and 4 glowstone can become 2 Iron ore. If you pipe devices together properly and insert half a stack of iron, in short order you are breeding iron at an alarming rate. All because of the maceration step.

On the current idea, the latest technology we can make is the IC² tech. In that, the latest we can make is the Mass Fabricator. Making EE available after that is the very limit we can postpone. Are you saying it is still not enough? Because, the only alternative IMO is removing EE completelly...

I'm saying the Macerator ruins EE balance crazy fast. I put that 32 stack of Iron in my machine 15 minutes ago to this post, I now have 7 full stacks of iron. Basically, the recipes would have to be changed so you could not create breeding loops like the one I described above if you really really want balance AND EE.

Breeding loops happen. Even just BTW and EE - run 2 gravel over a wicker filter, get 2 flint and 2 sand. 2 flint becomes three gravel, rinse and repeat.

Perhaps not as fast as macerating iron (I'm a BC noob, so I don't know if there's a faster way to drag items from a ACT) but it's infinite all the same.

[Magmarashi]

Even then, the Dark Matter Furnace has a chance of duplicating materials processed through it.

Still...considering the Ultimate goal here is a Dark Matter Locus that you can use to breed Dark Matter directly, it isn't as unbalanced as it first seems. The Locus eats fuel, and I don't even mean in the general universe of "somewhat quickly". It can reduce stacks of Mobius fuel to nothing in -seconds- trying to duplicate Dark Matter Blocks, and not even progress that much towards the goal.

At the DML stage of EE, your cheat factories to produce breeding iron and gold are JUST to Transmute them down into Mobius fuel components to keep your Locus fed and happy. So there is a bit of an unintended balance.

let's face it, too, by the time you make enough Dark matter in EE to not have to feed any more Loci, you're done with EE

[Gilberreke]

Breeding loops happen. Even just BTW and EE - run 2 gravel over a wicker filter, get 2 flint and 2 sand. 2 flint becomes three gravel, rinse and repeat.

Perhaps not as fast as macerating iron (I'm a BC noob, so I don't know if there's a faster way to drag items from a ACT) but it's infinite all the same.

Breeding loops are the EE killer to me. If I were to make a balance mod including EE, I would remove all of them from the game.

[Stormweaver]

Breeding loops happen. Even just BTW and EE - run 2 gravel over a wicker filter, get 2 flint and 2 sand. 2 flint becomes three gravel, rinse and repeat.

Perhaps not as fast as macerating iron (I'm a BC noob, so I don't know if there's a faster way to drag items from a ACT) but it's infinite all the same.

Breeding loops are the EE killer to me. If I were to make a balance mod including EE, I would remove all of them from the game.

Sounds like that'd be a challenge. And it'd likely end up removing the 'equivalent' part of EE's name, if you end up nerfing recipes so the loss of material counteracts the breeding loop.

Then again as we're talking of breeding loops: Glowstone dust aggregates into glowstone, which is converted into 4 dust, which is cycled back into the system. That's a inbuilt breeding loop. So saying that they're a EE 'killer' seems a bit weird imo. And no, the 'it's designed to be like that' arguement doesn't work, as it does the exact same thing as other breeding loops, it's just another option for one.

[Gilberreke]

Sounds like that'd be a challenge. And it'd likely end up removing the 'equivalent' part of EE's name, if you end up nerfing recipes so the loss of material counteracts the breeding loop.

Then again as we're talking of breeding loops: Glowstone dust aggregates into glowstone, which is converted into 4 dust, which is cycled back into the system. That's a inbuilt breeding loop. So saying that they're a EE 'killer' seems a bit weird imo. And no, the 'it's designed to be like that' arguement doesn't work, as it does the exact same thing as other breeding loops, it's just another option for one.

The balance is in how much time is required to breed glowstone dust. Iron is just one step lower and the breeding loop takes a tenth of the time of the glowstone breeder.

That being said, after thinking about it, if EE is behind the UU matter tech, it really doesn't matter all that much anymore. You're now in end-game and the breeding loops are fun to make, don't overpower anything, since you already progressed all tech trees.

The trick seems to be that EE is an end-game mod and allowing it to exist pre end-game of your other mods makes it OP. That's the brilliance of this UU => P. stone suggestion.

[Mason11987]

That being said, after thinking about it, if EE is behind the UU matter tech, it really doesn't matter all that much anymore. You're now in end-game and the breeding loops are fun to make, don't overpower anything, since you already progressed all tech trees.

The trick seems to be that EE is an end-game mod and allowing it to exist pre end-game of your other mods makes it OP. That's the brilliance of this UU => P. stone suggestion.

Exactly, I played a game with BC, and IC2, and EE, and I found that by the time I had a UU factory going, I already had EE tools strong enough to make any UU I made completely meaningless, and BC and EE easily crushed anything I could get from macerating/BC loops.

I'm going to look into some of the add/remove recipe options mentioned here, and see if I can't set it up so P. Stones are ONLY accessible via UU matter.