Combining mods - Tech Progression and Gameplay

[Mason11987]

So I've been trying out playing a few worlds with a combination of mods:

• BTW
• Buildcraft
• IndustrialCraft2
• Wireless Redstone
• Portalgun Mod
• Equivalent Exchange

This is fun and it runs fine but the "game" as a series of goals and progression that comes from BTW alone is kind of ruined.

So I was inspired by some discussion in the BC-BTW mod crossover add-on thread by Gilberreke.

I'm not quite fit to mod any sort of progression into the combination of these mods, even for personal use, but what I can do is use TMI to imagine my own tech tree, which puts each mod in a smooth progression of power. This would work perfect if each mod easily allowed adding/removing of recipes through an API, but they don't for now at least, so I"m going to try to tweak some recipes myself (or just simulate it with TMI) to get this:

• BTW will work exactly as intended, through every currently existing age.
• Buildcraft gears could require hafts.
• Refined iron (from IC2) will have to be made in a crucible.
• wireless redstone objects will require refined iron instead of just iron
• Equivilant exchange philosopher's stone (necessary for most EE stuff) will require UU matter (end game IC2).
• portal gun mysterious substance will require Iridium plates (end game IC2) and dark matter (end game EE) to create

I'm pretty sure I won't be able to personally mod my game to actually require this sort of progression, but I can utilize TMI to simulate it well enough. I was wondering if anyone else who plays with multiple mods wants to comment with some ideas or try out a world like this and see if it's fun.

[Brethern]

I usually progress through BTW first collecting ores and marking any oil deposits for later use. Once BTW tech tree is done you're free to do whatever.

[Mason11987]

I usually progress through BTW first collecting ores and marking any oil deposits for later use. Once BTW tech tree is done you're free to do whatever.

That's essentially the idea here, but to make IC2 or buildcraft items expensive relative to BTW items.

Some other things I have realized while looking through these mods that would impact playing this combo like this:

• the alchemical (huge) chest from EE isavailable, although diamond expensive, during BTW progression
• Same with the iron furnace, a moderatly expensive better furnace from IC2
• Paintbrush from IC2 is available from the start.
• IC2 tin based buckets are available, cheaper then iron.
• Batteries from IC2 are available, although they don't have any use.
• Cells from IC2 can be used to make obsidian from the start, which is a hassle to craft, but an alternative to getting diamond, which is interesting.
• Industrial TNT and Dynamate (IC2) can be made from the start, although I don't think they are any more valuable then their materials
• Rubber boots (IC2) can be made from the start, this may mess up the tech progression slightly, they reduce fall damage.
• Nukes (IC2) can be made starting out... but they're quite expensive to make a big hole.

If anyone wants to try this but has problems getting it all set up, I can put up a tutorial as well.

[jorgebonafe]

I really like this idea.. With such simple alterations you made a very effective tech tree.

I would be willing to make this, but I would need permission from each of the mod authors to launch something like this, as it would basically change functionality for the other mods.....

[Mason11987]

I really like this idea.. With such simple alterations you made a very effective tech tree.

I would be willing to make this, but I would need permission from each of the mod authors to launch something like this, as it would basically change functionality for the other mods.....

Yeah, I suspect you probably won't get all of them to sign on to something like this, which of course isn't unreasonable. It was more of a thought experiment and maybe a way to encourage each of the mod makers to include the sort of API functionality that would be able to make something like this. I think FC talked about that in another place. In general if each of the mod makers included a config for recipes, that would probably allow something like this to be easily made by anyone and wouldn't require any change to any base mod files. It'd be possible to distribute a folder with a set of configs for each mod and then it would work with just that.

Not to cause the thread to derail very early, but how would you go about modding these mods as a whole, I've used MCP to make very very simple mods, but can you decompile the code from BTW/IC2/BC yourself? I know distributing it would be against terms, but it'd be interesting to be able to look at the entire combined codebase to see what could or couldn't be easily done.

Edit - In order to test out if this sort of progression (even self-imposed) would be fun, I took my current world with a couple IC2 items, a few BC items, and a couple EE items and destroyed everything I couldn't have got by that point. I'm about to build my first windmill :).

[Brethern]

I really like this idea.. With such simple alterations you made a very effective tech tree.

I would be willing to make this, but I would need permission from each of the mod authors to launch something like this, as it would basically change functionality for the other mods.....

Yeah, I suspect you probably won't get all of them to sign on to something like this, which of course isn't unreasonable. It was more of a thought experiment and maybe a way to encourage each of the mod makers to include the sort of API functionality that would be able to make something like this. I think FC talked about that in another place. In general if each of the mod makers included a config for recipes, that would probably allow something like this to be easily made by anyone and wouldn't require any change to any base mod files. It'd be possible to distribute a folder with a set of configs for each mod and then it would work with just that.

Not to cause the thread to derail very early, but how would you go about modding these mods as a whole, I've used MCP to make very very simple mods, but can you decompile the code from BTW/IC2/BC yourself? I know distributing it would be against terms, but it'd be interesting to be able to look at the entire combined codebase to see what could or couldn't be easily done.

To my knowledge if you drop the mod into your .jar and then decompile it you should be able to mod it.

In terms of permission's you'd really only need spacetoads and alblaka's BTW can be used as a base but it does not have to be changed in any way.

[Mason11987]

-Snip-

To my knowledge if you drop the mod into your .jar and then decompile it you should be able to mod it.

In terms of permission's you'd really only need spacetoads and alblaka's BTW can be used as a base but it does not have to be changed in any way.

Well if it was done as I came up with we'd need the crucible to be changed to make refined iron, but we could just change circuits/machine blocks to require steel instead, then nothing would need to be changed with BTW.

[jorgebonafe]

I also don't think I would have to change any base classes. I saw something on the other thread about changing mod recipes without altering the base classes of the mods... I could try to use that.

@Flowerchild - What do you think about this, if I may ask? You think its a good idea? Any suggestions on the tech tree?

[Brethern]

-Snip-

To my knowledge if you drop the mod into your .jar and then decompile it you should be able to mod it.

In terms of permission's you'd really only need spacetoads and alblaka's BTW can be used as a base but it does not have to be changed in any way.

Well if it was done as I came up with we'd need the crucible to be changed to make refined iron, but we could just change circuits/machine blocks to require steel instead, then nothing would need to be changed with BTW.

That can be done without touching BTW to my knowledge writing a hook that requires BTW to be installed would be all that is required.

Or I might be thinking in Lua terms.

[Mason11987]

-Snip-

To my knowledge if you drop the mod into your .jar and then decompile it you should be able to mod it.

In terms of permission's you'd really only need spacetoads and alblaka's BTW can be used as a base but it does not have to be changed in any way.

Well if it was done as I came up with we'd need the crucible to be changed to make refined iron, but we could just change circuits/machine blocks to require steel instead, then nothing would need to be changed with BTW.

That can be done without touching BTW to my knowledge writing a hook that requires BTW to be installed would be all that is required.

Or I might be thinking in Lua terms.

Fair enough, I concede ignorance on this, if only because your conclusion makes this more feasible then mine :D.

I posted a list of gameplay concerns above, Anyone else have any things that would need to be considered?

[Brethern]

-Snip-

To my knowledge if you drop the mod into your .jar and then decompile it you should be able to mod it.

In terms of permission's you'd really only need spacetoads and alblaka's BTW can be used as a base but it does not have to be changed in any way.

Well if it was done as I came up with we'd need the crucible to be changed to make refined iron, but we could just change circuits/machine blocks to require steel instead, then nothing would need to be changed with BTW.

That can be done without touching BTW to my knowledge writing a hook that requires BTW to be installed would be all that is required.

Or I might be thinking in Lua terms.

Fair enough, I concede ignorance on this, if only because your conclusion makes this more feasible then mine :D.

I posted a list of gameplay concerns above, Anyone else have any things that would need to be considered?

Aside from the nano sabre and mining laser I can't think of anything else that needs to be changed. The steel sword one shots mobs but has limited uses whereas the nano sabre two shots mobs and only needs energy.

If you were to change this I'm thinking there's allot that going to need re balancing. The best bet is to list all IC2 EE and BC items there is and try and come up with a way that they could fit into BTW tech tree better. Then contact the authors asking permission linking the write up you done so that they have an idea what you want to do.

I have a few ideas for an overhaul that might fit it I just have to get it written in a form that is understandable for others that are not me.

[jorgebonafe]

I have a few ideas for an overhaul that might fit it I just have to get it written in a form that is understandable for others that are not me.

We probably should think carefully about all changes before making a final decision for the tech tree and begin getting permissions and coding... Looking forward to see what you got

[Brethern]

I have a few ideas for an overhaul that might fit it I just have to get it written in a form that is understandable for others that are not me.

We probably should think carefully about all changes before making a final decision for the tech tree and begin getting permissions and coding... Looking forward to see what you got

I hope you're ready for a two page essay.

Probably not that much but it's allot. I'll try and finish it for tomorrow.

[Mason11987]

I have a few ideas for an overhaul that might fit it I just have to get it written in a form that is understandable for others that are not me.

We probably should think carefully about all changes before making a final decision for the tech tree and begin getting permissions and coding... Looking forward to see what you got

I hope you're ready for a two page essay.

Probably not that much but it's allot. I'll try and finish it for tomorrow.

Have you already compiled a list of all the items from all the mods? If so could you send it, otherwise I'll work on it myself.

[Brethern]

I have a few ideas for an overhaul that might fit it I just have to get it written in a form that is understandable for others that are not me.

We probably should think carefully about all changes before making a final decision for the tech tree and begin getting permissions and coding... Looking forward to see what you got

I hope you're ready for a two page essay.

Probably not that much but it's allot. I'll try and finish it for tomorrow.

Have you already compiled a list of all the items from all the mods? If so could you send it, otherwise I'll work on it myself.

It's not a list of items in the mods. It's vanilla items that have to be redone as they are redundant.

EDIT:

I better give an example. you only need to use one cobble furnace to smelt enough material to get an iron furnace.

Just keep in mind these are just ideas I have to redo vanilla items so that you have a reason to build them.

[DocLazy]

So I've been trying out playing a few worlds with a combination of mods:

• BTW
• Buildcraft
• IndustrialCraft2
• Wireless Redstone
• Portalgun Mod
• Equivalent Exchange

This is fun and it runs fine but the "game" as a series of goals and progression that comes from BTW alone is kind of ruined.

So I was inspired by some discussion in the BC-BTW mod crossover add-on thread by Gilberreke.

I'm not quite fit to mod any sort of progression into the combination of these mods, even for personal use, but what I can do is use TMI to imagine my own tech tree, which puts each mod in a smooth progression of power. This would work perfect if each mod easily allowed adding/removing of recipes through an API, but they don't for now at least, so I"m going to try to tweak some recipes myself (or just simulate it with TMI) to get this:

• BTW will work exactly as intended, through every currently existing age.
• Buildcraft gears could require hafts.
• Refined iron (from IC2) will have to be made in a crucible.
• wireless redstone objects will require refined iron instead of just iron
• Equivilant exchange philosopher's stone (necessary for most EE stuff) will require UU matter (end game IC2).
• portal gun mysterious substance will require Iridium plates (end game IC2) and dark matter (end game EE) to create

I'm pretty sure I won't be able to personally mod my game to actually require this sort of progression, but I can utilize TMI to simulate it well enough. I was wondering if anyone else who plays with multiple mods wants to comment with some ideas or try out a world like this and see if it's fun.

Zombe's modpack has a mod that allows you to change, and or add new recipies from a simple text file. No coding needed.

In saying that, I don't think IC and BTW are a good fit. You end up with a lot duplicated functionality.

[Gilberreke]

Yeah, I researched this and recipe removal and adding is easy to do. A mod like this wouldn't take too much time. It's a planned item on my Tech Pack list after the current Energy version is done.

I like a few of the ideas here, will write em down.

[MagusUnion]

You're basically running the same setup as I am, except I don't even touch EE (too useful imo... and I find it's extremely hard to balance other mods around it...)

The best way I can come up with playing the major 3-4 Forge mods is this: Don't barrel down the path of all of them at once. Reason for that being is that you'll catch yourself in a situation where you'll tediously HAVE to do X for Y mod item, or do Z for Y mod item as well. It doesn't make for an experience that you can have fun with, because you actually enslave yourself into a repetitive pattern.

Also, (and this is another problem I find with EE + any other mod) instead of looking at all the materials you are able to obtain, watch how many resources you have to spend as you are trying to establish a setup. Remember that generator you had to build in order to properly run a macerater? That took 8 iron + 4 Tin + 2 Redstone + 1 rubber + 1/6 copper cable in order to get. Not to mention you had to spend either wood or coal for fuel in order to burn said iron into refined iron to get. You also had to explore to acceptable depths in order to obtain redstone/iron/tin at all, as well as find a rubber tree to get resin and then burn said resin as rubber. (cobble and wood are negligible costs here due to their extreme commonality)...

There's alot you have to invest with some of these mods in order to get the high outputs you are looking at now. I know it doesn't seem as much atm because of the extreme utility every mod brings to the table immediately, but you do have to consider the amount of materials you need to invest in order to get to these climatic points in the game..


(If anything, I'd say take EE out of you .jar and play without it for awhile. Transmutation, imo, should be an end-game ability because of how it automatically allows common resources to convert into rare ones, and that in-and-of itself will break the game balance of ANY mod no matter what...)

[Brethern]

What we could do is code it so that you require a certain level in order to access EE. and in order to get that level you have to craft items not through mining and such.

[Gilberreke]

Reason for that being is that you'll catch yourself in a situation where you'll tediously HAVE to do X for Y mod item, or do Z for Y mod item as well. It doesn't make for an experience that you can have fun with, because you actually enslave yourself into a repetitive pattern.

I think that is exactly what the thread poster and most of us want. We want to be forced to HAVE to make X before being able to make Y, since that's exactly what most of these mods do: provide a solid tech tree.

[MagusUnion]

What we could do is code it so that you require a certain level in order to access EE. and in order to get that level you have to craft items not through mining and such.

Either Disabling or altering the slimeball -> P. Stone recipe would be your best bet. It seems to be the item that actually messes this all up for EE in general... Apothecarium requires 1 Diamond, and 8 Elixirs of Life in order to craft a P. Stone.. And trust me, you go thru alot of plants trying to mix just ONE of those elixirs... (and god forbid you screw up even one complex mixture along that tech path)...

I think that is exactly what the thread poster and most of us want. We want to be forced to HAVE to make X before being able to make Y, since that's exactly what most of these mods do: provide a solid tech tree.

Why?

[Magmarashi]

You answered your own question in the quote you questioned.

[jorgebonafe]

(If anything, I'd say take EE out of you .jar and play without it for awhile. Transmutation, imo, should be an end-game ability because of how it automatically allows common resources to convert into rare ones, and that in-and-of itself will break the game balance of ANY mod no matter what...)

Well, using UU Matter for this is a good way to make EE end-game... Making IC machines would be much harder having to use a crucible, and making a mass fabricator would be a very late game item...

[MagusUnion]

You answered your own question in the quote you questioned.

You'll only start saying things like I say things if you keep trying hard to make less sense while trying hard to make sense...

Well, using UU Matter for this is a good way to make EE end-game... Making IC machines would be much harder having to use a crucible, and making a mass fabricator would be a very late game item...

Yeah, but wouldn't that be overly expensive? I mean, then you have to have some kind of tier 3 energy setup going JUST to build up UU Matter, and afterwhich you would have to wait until said energy setup has built enough energy to manufacture enough UU for your recipe. In the course of that time, you probably wouldn't need transmutes because if you had invested that energy elsewhere, you could have gained just as much (if not more) resources from using your other machines/quarries/tools instead...

Edit: However, I do think I'm forgetting that EE let's you 'reverse convert' materials as well. Which is an option I personally don't allow for myself either, lol...

I kinda hate the concept of UU Matter tbh.. idk why Alba decided to put it into IC when he did, but I guess (at the time) it was supposed to be our draw towards HV and larger energy setups (because in IC1 you were pretty much set if all you had was a decent generator array and an MSU to sink EU into, lol...)

[Magmarashi]

You answered your own question in the quote you questioned.

You'll only start saying things like I say things if you keep trying hard to make less sense while trying hard to make sense...

No, the question was literally answered before you asked it.

since that's exactly what most of these mods do: provide a solid tech tree.

That is Why