CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

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dawnraider
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CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by dawnraider »

Bit of a smaller update, and a somewhat technical one, as a lot of the current goals are the same as last time.

2.0.0 Update
The main thing to talk about is the upcoming BTW CE 2.0.0 release. The primary purpose for this release is to move away from mcp, switch to using unified source (instead of having to maintain separate client and server sources), and move to using fabric as a default. Features in this release are still up for debate, as the focus right now is on technical upgrades.

Zhil and Arminias have put in a bunch of really great work getting the tooling set up for BTW development which has helped streamline the process a ton for me and other contributors, and will also help make addon development easier.

Unfortunately, this update is going to break addons pretty significantly. A significant portion of the BTW codebase will be refactored to make it easier to work with and to update FC's outdated coding styles to match modern standards, including renaming classes and fields and moving classes into their own packages.

Along with the update, the default addon development tooling will be moved from mcp over to fabric. This has several advantages:
- MCP has a rather draconian license, meaning we can't do any customization to make the highly manual (and archaic) tool easier to use. Basically all our existing work has been a wrapper to hack some additional functionality onto it, which has been far for perfect.
- Allows addons to use the merged source, reducing time spent maintaining two codebases.
- Gives access to fabric mixins, which will help with addon compatibility significantly.

It is going to be some time before it's possible for BTW itself to make use of fabric (to avoid causing issues with trying to write addons as right now mixins on top of mixins isn't something supported yet). However, eventually we're going to try to get BTW also using fabric mixins which will help with development, and potentially allow for updating to newer (relatively speaking) MC versions to pick up some technical improvements.

Future Plans - Updating MC
This should all be said with the massive caveat that this is very far down the line, if it ever happens at all. This is going to be a ton of work, and is basically entirely dependent on being able to transition BTW's extensive base class edits into mixins without making addon development hell.

That being said, as I mentioned above I would like to see about looking at updating by a couple MC versions, likely onto 1.8. This would let us pick up a bunch of technical improvements including:
- The resourcepack system, including custom sounds and block/item models.
- Modern skins including layers and slim model.
- The overhauled renderer in 1.7, which would also fix layered transparency not working.
- Internal block states, which would massively simplify internal code (basically this is how 1.13+ works, except 1.8-1.12 still exported block states into metadata to save it). This could potentially even be extended to actually backport 1.13's block id system, although that's somewhat questionable.
- Support for MacOS on ARM. 1.5 used outdated applet architecture which is not supported properly on Apple Silicon, and updating to 1.6+ would fix this.

1.8 was chosen because it would have a large number of technical benefits, plus a couple cool features, with only a couple things that would need to be changed to maintain balance. Anything past 1.9's combat changes would require a massive amount of work rebalancing, for very little technical or feature upgrades unless going all the way to 1.13.

This is extremely subject to change, but these are my initial thoughts on the design work needed for updating:
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1.6:
Major issues:
- Regional difficulty - bad change, clashes with tons of established BTW features, needs to be completely removed
- Horses - could be interesting, but would require massive balance changes and so should be removed to start
- Baby zombies - would not fit into BTW curated combat experience imo, should be removed
Minor issues:
- Spiders spawning with status effects - probably removed, doesn't really serve a purpose
- Nerfs to health and regen potions - likely reverted, as these potions are integral to late game combat
- Nether fortress chests - either removed outright or rebalanced ala the temple chest changes
- Terracotta - balanced for clay changes, likely a simple port of how deco handles it

1.7:
Major issues:
- Fishing changes - way overpowered for BTW, should be reverted
- Water breathing - invalidates one of the benefits of having steel armor, probably removed
- Chicken jockey - same issues as baby zombies above, plus respawning chickens is problematic (and chickens spawning in caves would be non-feasible anyway as they would starve), should be removed
Minor issues:
- Packed ice - would need balance tweaks, not sure what though
- Jeb sheep - clashes with HC sheep, should be removed

1.8:
Major issues:
- Ocean monuments - guardians are a very interesting mob that I think would fit in BTW, but would definitely require a balance pass, especially the elder guardians
Minor issues:
- Stone variants - would require the same treatment as normal stone (aka similar to deco's approach but more thorough)
- Endermites - fairly pointless and should be removed or potentially completely reworked into something better
- Rabbits - no idea how to handle them. Not necessarily problematic enough to remove, but would require a balance pass
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Sockthing
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Re: CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by Sockthing »

Hey loving the work! But also not liking so much the add-on breaking stuff, but hey a reason to finally to do mixins :)
Here are also some my thoughts on the design work:

1.6:
- I agree with all your points. Maybe the potion effects on spiders could be integrated into the hard mode (we talked about the option in discord to add a easy and a hard mode to make btw harder for those who need an extra challenge).
- Chest in Nether fortresses sound like a nice addition. Another reason to find fortresses and explore more of the Nether.
1.7:
-again agree with all points.
-Packed ice: perfect for the piston packer as a recipe :D maybe finally a way to place ice without it melting? Though might needs some tweaks to avoid sliding items along ice instead of using water streams (if that would be an issue with btw's importance on water streams to guide items).
- Is the jeb sheep the rainbow or the upside down sheep? If its the rainbow, when shearing it would just return its original wool color? Or is there another issue I'm not aware of?
1.8:
- Excited for ocean monuments !
-Not much to further add.
Rob wrote:Sock-ilocks then tried the momma bear's pixel size and thought that it was just right.
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dawnraider
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Re: CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by dawnraider »

Yeah I'm still torn on the difficulty thing. It's absolutely something I want to do, just don't know if I want it as an addon or core to BTW.

The design thoughts are copy/pasted from something I posted on discord like a year ago, but still generally line up with my current thoughts. I do think nether fortress chests are worth considering, just maybe tune back the numbers and make a pass at the contents.

The jeb sheep in vanilla is the rainbow one, which in vanilla drops whatever color of wool it was at the time of shearing. Just dropping original wool color regardless of displayed wool color though would be a good compromise to still have fun rainbows (It would be rather hypocritical for me to want to take rainbows *out* lol).

With ice, honestly I don't really have the same issues that FC did with it for item transport. So it's definitely something worth considering. I do honestly think it wouldn't be terrible to just leave as is, except make it piston packer only.
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EpicAaron
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Re: CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by EpicAaron »

This sounds ambitious! I have been wanting to sit down and figure out how to make Fabric mods, so if you decide to go forward with these massive changes I am willing to put in the work to update my addon for it.

I am sure you enjoy doing this work anyway, but if you are going to do a massive refactoring of the code... have you considered just making your own modern version of Better Than Wolves for the latest MC? You'd be able to design it from the ground up for current sensibilities, and the audience could be massive. It would be a herculean task, but maybe more rewarding for you than just reinventing the wheel for this niche of gamers?

Regardless, horses and leads are two features that would be amazing for BTW. Bunnies offer a chance to design a fun new hunting system. Maybe rabbits actively flee and hide under stumps making them hard to rush down like the other animals, but can be trapped Don't Starve style?
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jackatthekilns
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Re: CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by jackatthekilns »

I'll be honest, I had a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of changing the base MC version. After my initial shock, I think this is probably a good way to go. I think the CE team has proven that you are all capable of keeping the spirit of the mod alive even in 1.8. Looking forward to it!
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dawnraider
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Re: CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by dawnraider »

EpicAaron wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:35 pm I am sure you enjoy doing this work anyway, but if you are going to do a massive refactoring of the code... have you considered just making your own modern version of Better Than Wolves for the latest MC? You'd be able to design it from the ground up for current sensibilities, and the audience could be massive. It would be a herculean task, but maybe more rewarding for you than just reinventing the wheel for this niche of gamers?
I actually have done some work here and there on modern versions, but quite frankly something like BTW doesn't make sense on modern versions. MC stopped being a survival game a long time ago, and I don't think trying to make modern MC into one makes a ton of sense. I'd rather just play around with the tech side of things with mods like Create (which is the only other tech mod to rival BTW imo).

jackatthekilns wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 1:16 pm I'll be honest, I had a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of changing the base MC version. After my initial shock, I think this is probably a good way to go. I think the CE team has proven that you are all capable of keeping the spirit of the mod alive even in 1.8. Looking forward to it!
Glad to hear it! Yeah I absolutely don't want to compromise the current BTW gameplay experience just to get technical upgrades, which is why 1.8 was chosen since I feel like that's attainable.
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PlasmaFox
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Re: CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by PlasmaFox »

You have to decide if it's worth the port. You can either stay on 1.5.2 and keep polishing the existing CE we have - or put the effort into porting to 1.8 to gain some potential benefits you listed.
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LannyRipple
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Re: CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by LannyRipple »

dawnraider wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:02 pm Yeah I'm still torn on the difficulty thing. It's absolutely something I want to do, just don't know if I want it as an addon or core to BTW.
From a development standpoint I would like to suggest that BTW stay a curated experience without being able to change a lot of bells and whistles in the core mod.
This should simplify having a consistent balance without having to worry about options being turned on or off.

Additional mods would probably make different choices on how to balance an easy-mode and hard-mode mod (and the-other-hard-mode-mod. and the those-other-hard-mode-mods-got-it-wrong-so-here-is-the-real-hard-core-mode, etc, etc.). Let add-on mods worry about their balance choices and the core stay core.
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dawnraider
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Re: CE Dev Diary #3 (September 11th, 2022)

Post by dawnraider »

It definitely would not be allowing the ability to configure a bunch of things. Fine grained configuration is pretty antithetical to a lot of the design of BTW, and I definitely don't want to stray from that. Difficulty options, as either an addon or a core feature, would be curated feature sets and not configurable. But, is even two different possible experiences too much for core development? Maybe, hence why I haven't made a decision there.

For the record though, I am leaning more towards the addon route, since mixins with fabric will make it far easier to develop something like that than it would've been previously.
Come join us on discord! https://discord.gg/fhMK5kx
Get the Deco Addon here!
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