(BTW V4.AH-ABBA) - Spoilers in Sp's - Mining Efficiency

[utakataJ6]

Post-merge disclaimer: It might be useful to merge this post with the Forward Momentum post, but can we wait a day before doing so to allow discussion?

After losing my first

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iron dust by punching iron with my fist, thinking you had to expose it like stone and logs,

I've been continually testing how to mine materials in this strange new world. Here's what I've found so far.

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What you can mine, with what:
Red = inefficient due to lost output

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Iron: Sharp Rock = Chisel (1/4), stone = iron
Coal: Sharp Rock = Chisel (1/2), stone = iron
Gold: Chisel (1/4), iron
lapis: Sharp Rock = Chisel = stone = iron
redstone: chisel = iron
diamond: chisel = iron
emerald: chisel = iron

Some thoughts on utility:

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*As far as I can see you should -never- use the chisel on gold. It's nice that the feature is there, but it's extremely wasteful. You should probably mark the gold and come back with an iron pick. The only way I see this being useful was if there were recipes gated behind gold dust/ore, which you might want to make before getting an iron pick regardless of the inefficiency, but I have yet to identify any such recipe?
*Lapis - I'm a little bit surprised there is no penalty for using a stone tier on lapis, seeing as there stone tier ruins the largely-equivalent redstone, but i'm not complaining.
*redstone, diamond, emerald - using chisel here does not waste materials. Surprisingly, scraping redstone ore with your chisel gives you the full yield, not the expected single rs dust

Some observations on durability:

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The stone pick, as we've all noticed by now, is far stronger than its pre-AH equivalent, which is very helpful for moving quickly with crude torches.
*1 stone pick appears to now has 50[ed] uses, so 1 pick is enough to mine 5 iron ingots.
The stone shovel gets no such love, remaining relatively weak
*1 stone shovel appears to have 50[ed], which is about the area of a big empty house in a village
*Compared to the pick, stone shovels are a weak choice for eliminating dirt/gravel deposits in caves, which can hide valuable ore. This incentivizes finding a shovel zombie?

Thinking about early game tool 'tiers':

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The pointy stick, sharp rock, and chisel are imo the same "class" of tool, like axes or picks. The rock is a straight upgrade given its ability to extract coal and iron dust, and the chisel adds the ability to extract gold dust and workbenches.
Same thing with the firestarting "class" of tool. Fire plough -> Bow -> Flint and Steel. Fire plough cannot be used on clay ovens.
Stone tools need string, Iron tools don't: this makes sense mechanically since you are technically "forging" an axe head, or so on, to place on your shaft.
*BTW 4.AH+ is dramatically less wood-grind than prior BTW survival. Near a biome with immediate webs (jungle or rare spider spawner), you can get to your first stone axe, and unlimited wood, after punching the exteriors off just 4 logs and 2 stones. It's a little less efficient without a web on day 1, but my spawns have been near jungles, and the risk pays off. See also: Creeper Mining.
New tools: I've tried a number of combinations to see if there are other new tools or weapons in the early game. In particular it really feels like i'm missing a recipe for a shovel-precursor (trowel? spade?) before accessing the workbench. I've tried all manner of reinforcing materials and I can't find the item, if it exists.

Phew.

[jackatthekilns]

Some observations on durability:

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The stone pick, as we've all noticed by now, is far stronger than its pre-AH equivalent, which is very helpful for moving quickly with crude torches.
*1 stone pick appears to now have approximately 40 uses, give or take, so 1 pick is enough to mine 4.5 iron ingots - enough for both an iron hoe and axe.
The stone shovel gets no such love, remaining relatively weak
*1 stone shovel appears to have approximately 40 uses, which is about the area of a big empty house in a village
*Compared to the pick, stone shovels are a weak choice for eliminating dirt/gravel deposits in caves, which can hide valuable ore. This incentivizes finding a shovel zombie?

From my tests stone tools all have the same durability (remembering that attacking mobs with any of them uses twice the durability, or at least that used to be true)

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All stone tools have 50 uses by my count

As for iron tools

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my count on the iron pick was 500

[utakataJ6]

Here's another research item related to the abov.
recovering blocks, "vanilla minecraft" style.

[I'm trying to keep this error free. If I remember wrong, or am just plain wrong, please comment and I'll fix and attribute.]

Here's what I've found so far
Gravity:

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All loose blocks and slabs are subject to gravity.
Most early-game blocks are subject to gravity.
Early-game blocks that are gravity free:
-logs
-clay blocks?

Dirt

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*break by hand -> 3/4 yield
*breaking a block causes dirt above it to become loose
*in some cases (?) breaking a block/a dirt causes dirt beside it to become loose
Collection: Hand, shovel
Makes: Loose dirt slabs -> loose dirt blocks
Advanced: create packed dirt via hardcore packing (with pistons)
Vanilla? Have not found a way to collect vanilla dirt or grass yet
-this also means that building packed earth roads is apparently off the table in early game?

SmoothStone

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*break by hand -> [partial] yield of stones
*break with a pickaxe -> 8 (?) stones
*breaking a block does not cause smoothstone above it to become loose
Vanilla? Can be obtained with the chisel by isolating a smoothstone block in midair (6 rhombus sides free) and chiseling

CobbleStone

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*break by hand -> destroyed
*break with a pickaxe -> 8 (?) stones
Makes: 8 stones on crafting table -> loose cobblestone
Untested: making loose cobblestone slabs
*breaking a block causes loose cobblestone above it to fall
Vanilla, in world: Can be obtained in the world by placing loose cobblestone then applying clay
Vanilla, in inventory: Have not currently found a way to obtain

Brick

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Brick slabs [ed], blocks and ovens are created loose, subj to gravity
Vanilla, in world: Can be obtained in the world by placing loose brick then applying clay
Vanilla, in inventory: Have not currently found a way to obtain

Gravel

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Loose slabs fall
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Vanilla: [From Stormy] Stone shovels harvest them whole, with chance for flint

Clay blocks

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Have not currently found a way to obtain

Sand/stone

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Have not performed research

[Stormweaver]

Gravel

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Loose slabs fall
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Vanilla: Have not currently found a way to obtain

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Stone shovels harvest gravel blocks whole, with the chance of getting flint as normal.

[dawnraider]

On obtaining clay blocks:

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craft 9 clay balls together

I really want to find a way to get actual cobblestone blocks though for builds.

[FlowerChild]

I really want to find a way to get actual cobblestone blocks though for builds.

Assuming you're talking about the regular cobblestone inventory items (creating cobble in-world is another story), silk touch or block dispenser. Otherwise, there's no path available, and I don't think one is really needed. Same for brick.

I will likely put some hardcore packing functionality in for brick and cobble down the road (I need to revamp the system somewhat for it, since it needs to take into account multiple item types at once), which will make using a BD to harvest large volumes easier though.

[dawnraider]

I really want to find a way to get actual cobblestone blocks though for builds.

Assuming you're talking about the regular cobblestone inventory items (creating cobble in-world is another story), silk touch or block dispenser. Otherwise, there's no path available, and I don't think one is really needed. Same for brick.

I will likely put some hardcore packing functionality in for brick and cobble down the road (I need to revamp the system somewhat for it, since it needs to take into account multiple item types at once), which will make using a BD to harvest large volumes easier though.

Yeah I know how to make it in world, and I like that early game. I fully understand limiting those blocks for early game, but it feels like there's not a very smooth progression if you have to wait until you get an anvil to get large amounts of usable stone. IMO it makes surviving the early game less rewarding because it significantly delays one of the major rewards, in being able to build more than just basic huts. Really my problem with it is that it makes building aesthetic buildings unnecessarily annoying, having to do that thing in world (which also doesn't allow for stairs or walls) over several hundred to several thousand blocks in large builds (largest building I've made had over 13000 stone in it, but with the newest version of BTW I never would have bothered). Plus all the scaffolding to make roofs and overhangs, and it becomes tedious to the point of exhaustion.

Part of it is a matter of playstyle to be sure. I usually make my starting hut dug into the ground, but as soon as possible I start making permanent buildings. I don't ever make temporary things outside of the start, and everything I make sure has a proper building for it. Previous to 4.AAAAAAHHHH, the progression of building materials felt pretty good, starting with cobblestone and wood, then wood sub-blocks, then smooth stone and stone bricks, then stone sub blocks and things like white stone, and the ability to use metal blocks aesthetically. I'm fine with adding a bit to the early game like in 4.AAAAAAHHHH, using only loose blocks, then access for readily available non-gravity blocks, then continuing the same progression, but limiting staple building blocks to almost late game feels bad. It just seems out of place that I need a block dispenser to properly build out of cobblestone or stone bricks.

[Stormweaver]

...to properly build out of cobblestone or stone bricks.

Stone bricks are fine I think - it's clay bricks that come 'loose'.

[dawnraider]

...to properly build out of cobblestone or stone bricks.

Stone bricks are fine I think - it's clay bricks that come 'loose'.

Stone bricks come from smooth stone, which is locked behind a block dispenser for amounts larger than what meager amounts you can get by

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using a chisel

[FlowerChild]

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As I said elsewhere: please give these changes some time to settle. The underlying mechanics of the game have changed at a very fundamental level in several areas.

At this point, your whining in various threads about aesthetic options being limited is not doing anything positive for your case, and doubly so for the above wall of text.

[dawnraider]

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As I said elsewhere: please give these changes some time to settle. The underlying mechanics of the game have changed at a very fundamental level in several areas.

At this point, your whining in various threads about aesthetic options being limited is not doing anything positive for your case, and doubly so for the above wall of text.

It's been a hard couple weeks for me, and I've had a lot on my plate, and I guess all of that ended up coming out here. So I do apologize. You're absolutely right, a lot has changed, and knee-jerk reactions to things I haven't even gotten to in my current world never end well. It's your mod, and you can make whatever changes you want, and I haven't been respecting that, or you, with my recent posts.

[FlowerChild]

It's been a hard couple weeks for me, and I've had a lot on my plate, and I guess all of that ended up coming out here. So I do apologize. You're absolutely right, a lot has changed, and knee-jerk reactions to things I haven't even gotten to in my current world never end well. It's your mod, and you can make whatever changes you want, and I haven't been respecting that, or you, with my recent posts.

It's cool man. I understand that people have a lot invested in their worlds and builds. I promise I will get to all of this. I'd just really appreciate a little patience right now when it comes to what I view as secondary design considerations, such as aesthetic builds.

Some things I have intentionally triaged and pushed to a later date while I attempt to resolve more pressing gameplay related issues. Stuff like cobble stairs or the piston packing I mentioned above are known issues, and on my todo list, I just need time to get to them.

Other issues are known design issues, and I have question marks next to them until I come up with a good solution, like upside down cobble slabs. That's not a request for suggestion (please no :) ), but I want to take a little more time to consider some of them as I work on other stuff.

Others still will be further considered and addressed with time, such as additional smoothstone and cobble options, as required.

With the massive amount of work I've invested in the mod lately, and the huge number of changes that have occurred, it just seems a little out of place to focus such attention on the impact on aesthetic options right now, especially when I've said I'll be addressing such things as time allows. Please be patient, and if you'd like to explore aesthetic builds in the short term, perhaps consider the possibilities that some of the new blocks open up.