The Souls series

[Wafflewaffle]

So Dark Souls 3 came out and every youtube, twitch, blog, forum, reddit and friend i have keeps fucking bringing it up as the most amazing "pure game" experience they ever played since Dark Souls. I got to admit I was a bit curious about the Souls series since Bloodborn launched, but refused to give in to the hype and this near sadomasocistic relationship people have with this game. I also refuse to give money to a game that I dont know I'll enjoy .

Then I remembered Microsoft gave me a copy of Dark Souls though Games with Gold for Xbox 360. So i dusted the damn thing off, set it on my bedroom, got me some pizza and beer and prepared myself to indulge in this "pure" experience. 4 hours later I just defeated the second boss and i know the game will only get better as i go on... but i just cant muster the will to keep going.

The main problem i have with it is that the whole game was designed around you being good at it and im just not good at it. I feel unwelcomed, and i just cant seem to "Git Gud" enough to feel confortable. Every time I die, the simple fact that i have to defeat every enemy again and again on the way to the boss, just to have my ass handed to me its just not fun.

I get why people enjoy it. The world and aesthetic are really good. The combat, when you do well, feels satisfying. The controls are competent. Im just not the player for this games. What about you guys?

[Gilberreke]

I have the same problem with fighting games. I realize they are very well made and I've heard plenty of times from friends that "it's just a quarter circle punch, it's easy to execute", but after years of trying them out now and then, even practicing for a while, I just can't execute even the simplest of moves with consistency.

It's fine, those games might just not be for us. Luckily, we have Bejeweled for Kids.

[Wafflewaffle]

It's fine, those games might just not be for us. Luckily, we have Bejeweled for Kids.

Fuck yeah we do!

Its just weird not beign able to partake in the joy of others for lack of skill.

[logorouge]

I always considered the Souls series very interesting, especially since I love boss battles and they got plenty of those there. Unfortunately, they're not for me. I just can't stand the slow pace and the focus on waiting for your opportunity. Bloodborne was much closer to a pace I could enjoy, but that one isn't on PC so far.

[DaveYanakov]

Welcome to the ranks of the casually hardcore

[Stormweaver]

I finished my first playthrough of DS3 yesterday, mostly solo (dancer and twin princes wrecked me).

I liked it. The game, of course, has problems - a major one being that player chars don't really have any poise, even with the games heaviest armour sets. A slightly less major one being that, lacking poise, the way they implemented defences from armour makes picking any given armour over another a matter of fashion instead of mechanics. So long as you're wearing something in each slot, you're more or less fine, even if it's just rags. Apparently the covenants system is messed up too, but I can't say I noticed in the brief time I spent in one.

The difficulty curve this time around feels a lot smoother than in previous games though - things that'll kill you before you can blink are introduced slowly and you have a lot of options for dealing with stuff that's out of your league, and there are plenty of shortcuts and elevators for cutting down the time you're running to get your souls back if you die. It helps that the first boss is fairly slow and telegraphs his attacks to get you used to fighting big things, with a really short run distance between him and the bonfire.

It's good, people should probably play it. Maybe wait for a sale if you're unsure though.

[kregoth]

I do love the Souls Games and if you never played a souls game and want to, just pick anyone of them and you'll love it! It's one of those game that you can sit down with a friend and have a blast analyzing every bit of the game from a design perspective. Hell if you are looking to become a game designer, pay extremely close attention to these games... I mean really close, because even the most insignificant thing you see has a large significance in the game!

I started with Demon souls, the first Souls game. So sadly I got bored with them half way through DS2. I have no doubt that DS3 is amazing, and when it's cheap I'll buy it. But honestly, I want them to take everything they know from making the Soul Series, and make something completely new and different I would buy anything they make! Otherwise ignoring Einstein is a bad idea, he's been correct about everything else, repetition is bad mkay!

[Whuppee]

I put about 200 hours each into DS1 and 2. I liked the first a lot more, but I quite enjoyed both. I haven't picked up number 3 yet.

They've probably improved things since 1, but if not, general emphasis that they may remain controller mandatory.

For what it's worth, 4 hours in, I doubt much anyone has gitted gud. If you're just not enjoying the experience, fair enough, but don't be too hard on yourself. And there is an art to skipping most of the enemies on your way back to a boss.

[MaxAstro]

I'm going through Dark Souls 3 right now. I'm pretty ready to declare it the best of the Dark Souls games - it has the interesting and unique bosses from the first, plus a lot of the quality-of-life improvements of the second. Plus thanks to the new magic system playing a mage is now hard mode, rather than easy mode...

That said, all of the Dark Souls games are basically the same game (Zero Punctuation likes to call it "The From Software Game"), so if one isn't your thing the later ones probably aren't either.

The first one is particularly bad about how far you have to go to get to certain bosses from the nearest bonfire, though. Two and (so far) three do that much less severely. With some exceptions (I'm looking at you, Duke's Dear Freya...).

[Wafflewaffle]

It crept into me, like poison in my veins. A smile. As the Capra Demon fell to his knees I felt the rush of victory and the shame of realization. I'm enjoying this, I thought to myself. Why on earth am I enjoying this?

I sleep on it for a while. Restarted my Char cuz i was not making a lot of progress and quite frankly the game is not designed for Sorcerers. Came back with a realization I didnt had before. Its a westernized japonese game. So grinding was into play (i didnt even considered the first time) and so was the need for a wiki, cuz damn that game is not very clear on its mechanics. I made as much progress now as a knight in 6h as i made in almost 30 with the Sorcerer, am stuck on blighttown again, but i get it now. I understand why it feels good to play it.

This game's job is to brake you. Your job is to brake the game. Exploiting faulty AI, looking up guides and builds online, using the OP Drakesword, early game. The game is not less becouse of this things, it seems to thrive in them. It knows its falty in a lot of ways, but it allows you to solve its puzzles in anyway you want. The most amazing thing is that, in a game with very little story, that relies on immersion solely on the strengh of its atmosfere and combat, is remarkably hard to break this immersion. I see that AI just derping on the edge of a cliff and it says to me "opportunity" instead of "malfunction".

I dig it. I dont know if I'll ever finish it, the frustation of Blighttown is taking a toll on me. But I'm happy I stuck with it a little while longer.

[MaxAstro]

Heh, yeah, very insightful. I agree with you, but I wouldn't have thought of that myself. I did have a very similar experience with the first game, though. My first time playing it I only played it for a few hours and really didn't enjoy it very much. Then I picked it back up a month or so later, and I definitely had the same kind of "when I did start having fun?!" experience.

Oh, man, Blighttown. :/ I still shudder to think of that place. I honestly basically always play a thief in DS1 just so that I can use the master key to skip Blighttown. Only advice I can give is carry lots of moss clumps and don't be afraid to skip things for now just to get to the next bonfire. Once you get to the midpoint bonfire it gets a bit easier.

Also if you haven't gotten the Rite of Kindling yet, it might be worth trying to push through the Catacombs for that; the extra flasks can make a big difference since Blighttown is a really long haul between bonfires.

[Whuppee]

I'm glad you're enjoying it, and oh yes, such grinding :D

If you end up playing through ever again, you might take the Master Key starting perk. That with some knowledge of the very interconnected map changes up the early game quite a bit.

Some parts are absolutely brutal as a melee, where magic is very viable and actually trivializes a lot of boss fights. As a committed melee, Pyro is a great boost to firepower at no/minimal stat investment (some attunement later). Though hybrids are great, too.

I heard the console frame rate in Blighttown is horrible. Is it?

Spoiler

Show

If you don't find it naturally, look up how to find "Ash Lake" sometime. It's easily missed and worth finding.

use the master key to skip Blighttown

Spoiler

Show

Can you skip Blighttown? I don't see how. 1 of the 2 Bells of Awakening is there.

[Wafflewaffle]

I heard the console frame rate in Blighttown is horrible. Is it?

Its like walking in poisonous mud while blighted barbarians throw giant rocks at you, but in slow motion.

Spoiler

Show

If you don't find it naturally, look up how to find "Ash Lake" sometime. It's easily missed and worth finding.

Maybe i should it feels like my weapons suck at shen's fortress.

[Whuppee]

Its like walking in poisonous mud while blighted barbarians throw giant rocks at you, but in slow motion.

Ouch. It's difficult without having to contend with performance issues. That has to be extra annoying.

Maybe i should it feels like my weapons suck at shen's fortress.

It may not help with that. I don't remember any noteworthy loot, anyway. It's an awesome approach/area though, very imaginative. I was sad when I was done there.

[MaxAstro]

Can you skip Blighttown? I don't see how.

Spoiler

Show

You can't skip the entirety of Blighttown, no, but you can skip the entire vertical part which is the nightmare region. The swamp at the bottom is not nearly so bad. From Firelink Shrine, take the elevator down to New Londo. But instead of going there, head into the cylindrical building next to the elevator. There's a door there that the master key will unlock that leads to the far end of the Valley of Drakes, from which you can open the shortcut to the bottom of Blighttown. You still have to get past two of those giant club enemies, but then it's a pretty chill walk to the great swamp bonfire, if you know where you are going. And from that bonfire you can rush to Quelaag's Domain without fighting more than one or two enemies by hugging the right hand wall - if you move quickly you can even entirely avoid fighting the rock throwers.

[Whuppee]

Spoiler

Show

You can't skip the entirety of Blighttown, no, but you can skip the entire vertical part which is the nightmare region. The swamp at the bottom is not nearly so bad. From Firelink Shrine, take the elevator down to New Londo. But instead of going there, head into the cylindrical building next to the elevator. There's a door there that the master key will unlock that leads to the far end of the Valley of Drakes, from which you can open the shortcut to the bottom of Blighttown. You still have to get past two of those giant club enemies, but then it's a pretty chill walk to the great swamp bonfire, if you know where you are going. And from that bonfire you can rush to Quelaag's Domain without fighting more than one or two enemies by hugging the right hand wall - if you move quickly you can even entirely avoid fighting the rock throwers.

Spoiler

Show

Oh, you're right. I forgot that that's not the normal path into Blighttown.

My first playthrough, I ended up killing the Capra Demon, clearing The Depths, and getting the key for the door connecting The Depths to Blighttown, but I couldn't find the door. Then a while later I found my way into Blighttown as you describe, having happened to have the Master Key. Some exploration and deaths later, I found that connecting door from the Blighttown side, realized I'd once been in the same room as it, but I hadn't recognized it as a door. Then I forgot all that. And I've been going the back way thinking it was the normal way ever since.

[MaxAstro]

I actually got stuck on my first playthrough (no master key) trying to find that same door, and had to look it up. Good to know I'm not the only one who found it easy to miss. xD

[Wafflewaffle]

I actually got stuck on my first playthrough (no master key) trying to find that same door, and had to look it up. Good to know I'm not the only one who found it easy to miss. xD

Like I said there are some things you need a guide for. Sen's fortress bonfire is so hidden i would never have found it without a handy guide. I just got to Enor Lando and by mistake killed the firekeeper in the first bonfire. Im so fucked right now.

Btw Whuppee if you know where to look you can score high level greatsword in Ashen lake. Again by doing stuff i would never do normally.

[MaxAstro]

I usually end up killing her anyway because I am a horrible person and

Spoiler

Show

always kill Gwendolyn.

But killing her by accident before you open the final shortcut there has got to be rough.

That greatsword is one of my favorite weapons in the whole game. I basically always play superheavy knights. My first run through DS1 I ended up wearing Havel's Set with the boar helm (awesome looking combo, looks way cooler than Havel's helm) along with Havel's shield and that greatsword. On the down side there were giants that could circle faster than me and I didn't so much evasive roll as evasive belly-flop.

On the upside I could block an entire combo from a black knight and not even lose half my stamina. xD

[Stormweaver]

Havel's shield has always been the go-to if you want to tank anything the game throws at you - the thing's a beast.

In DS3 right now, one of the more....broken PVP builds at the moment is just two-handing a havel's greatshield and laughing at any pitiful attempts to break your guard. Maybe throw in an estoc to allow for more pro-active methods of ending the fight.

[Daisjun]

I picked up DS1 a couple years ago but only really got around to playing it a few weeks ago. I didn't really understand the hype. To me it felt like a fairly average RPG that was made artificially more difficult by spacing out when you can save your progress. I didn't find it fun enough to warrant any further time in so I gave up on it pretty quickly.

I think the biggest issue for me is that it's what people seem to be dubbing a 'community game', that is, a game that you actively need to engage in the community (by looking up strategy guides, walkthroughs etc) in order to beat. I've never been on board with that. I feel if the game doesn't give you enough to go on in order to beat it, it's failed as a pure game play experience.

It's the same reason why games like DOTA have never really interested me. I really CBF spending hours reading up on builds and strats just to get mildly good at a game. But hey, some people love that kinda thing and props to them. It's just not me. 17 year old me might've enjoyed it. 27 year old me values a game purely on how fun it is, which I never found DS to be.

There's a nice discussion by Funhaus about it in one of their recent podcasts. Worth checking out. Has a bit of a playthrough of DOTT too, squee!

Spoiler

Show

[Whuppee]

people seem to be [saying] that you actively need to engage in the community (by looking up strategy guides, walkthroughs etc) in order to beat [it]. I've never been on board with that. I feel if the game doesn't give you enough to go on in order to beat it, it's failed as a pure game play experience.

You can play through them without any outside assistance. I did, some friends have, and certainly others besides. I would recommend that experience. You may not enjoy it either way though, and that's fair.

[MaxAstro]

I definitely got through DS1 with fairly minimal outside help. The only thing I think I had to look up was how to get to Blighttown, and plenty of people figure that out without needing a guide. DS2 was similar, although I have to give that game a bit of crap for giving you absolutely no clue at all how to progress once you get the key that lets you enter the Memories.

My habit is to play through each game once without looking anything up unless I'm totally stuck, and then look at guides for my second playthrough. It's definitely possible. That all said... I adore games that make me work hard for every bit of progress. I certainly understand that not being everyone's cup of tea. :)

And there definitely ARE some things that you are highly likely to need a walkthrough for. How anyone figured out things like getting to Ashen Lake or joining the Darkwraith covenant without a guide or sheer luck is beyond me. Not to mention it's entirely possible to buy the DLC and then never be able figure how to actually get to the DLC content without looking it up. DS2 was better about that.

Most of the really well hidden stuff is entirely optional, though. And for me that is kinda part of the fun. I mean... who would expect two cleverly hidden illusory walls in a small corner of the world to lead to two entire hidden zones? Or a quaint little secret path that lets you backtrack to the first area of the game... and also unlocks an entirely new zone and an optional boss. Discovering those little gems - never knowing when some small little hidden path is going to turn out to be a huge secret area - makes the grind a lot more bearable for me.

[Daisjun]

My habit is to play through each game once without looking anything up unless I'm totally stuck, and then look at guides for my second playthrough. It's definitely possible. That all said... I adore games that make me work hard for every bit of progress. I certainly understand that not being everyone's cup of tea. :)

And there definitely ARE some things that you are highly likely to need a walkthrough for. How anyone figured out things like getting to Ashen Lake or joining the Darkwraith covenant without a guide or sheer luck is beyond me. Not to mention it's entirely possible to buy the DLC and then never be able figure how to actually get to the DLC content without looking it up. DS2 was better about that.

Yeah I definitely subscribe to that. For instance, recently I played through Fallout 4 and Stardew Valley in the dark. Although like you said, with SDV I ended up needing to look up how to catch a fish to complete the main quest because there is absolutely no clue as to how you'd do it in game. The circumstances to catch it turned out to be absurd, I never would've figured it out otherwise. Fallout 4 never really explains that there are different armor classes either, another thing I only worked out by looking online.

You can play through them without any outside assistance. I did, some friends have, and certainly others besides. I would recommend that experience. You may not enjoy it either way though, and that's fair.

Fair call. I'm basing what I said on minimal game time and what other people have said so it might not be a fair statement.