Game Design - Incremental Games

This forum is for anything that doesn't specifically have to do with Better Than Wolves
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

I've been fascinated with incremental games as of late. I've been playing Clicker Heroes on and off for about a year now and I'd love to discuss some of the game design behind it with the game design enthusiasts and backseat game designers here :). I'm going to use Clicker Heroes as the example to study, because as far as I can tell, it's one of the earliest, one of the most popular, one of the most complex and the one I'm personally familiar with.

First off, some basics about incremental games:

What is an Incremental Game?
It's a family of games that is focused on grinding idly. Usually, you grind in the form of clicking. After a while, some form of "factories" open up, where the manual grinding is replaced by time grinding. A factory will be the equivalent of X amount of manual actions over a certain amount of time. The "goal" of the game is usually to get as high of a level as you can and the relative worth of that level is usually decided by a combination of achievements and an online community that will post their high scores.

History of Incremental Games:
First two examples of this genre are probably Cow Clicker, a parody and commentary on Skinner Box games (such as Farmville) and Candy Box, a novel browser game that introduced a few components that became ubiquitous in the genre (such as gradual unlocking of game features). After these two came the first real Incremental Game, Cookie Clicker. This is the prototype of the genre, the Dune 2 or Quake that all other games are in essence trying to copy and improve upon. Note that Cookie Clicker offers very few novelties over Cow Clicker and Candy Box, it merely distilled the gameplay into something more streamlined.

Tropes:
  • Clicking: You start off with having to repeatedly click something.
  • Idling: The game keeps running when you shut it off, so in the morning, you will wake up and find that you made progress and earned currency, which you can now spend.
  • Gradual unlock: Most games start off offering just the option to click something, it's only after a certain number is reached that it becomes apparent there's more to do. Mature incremental games take the trope very far, where certain core game features will only become visible after months of play.
  • Reset: After reaching a seeming wall, where progress becomes slow, the player is offered to reset the game, in return for a small boost in speed. Eventually the game becomes slow again, but at a higher level than previously. Most progress is made this way.
  • Reset currency: Reset boosts can be used as a currency to trade for greater boosts in some sort of upgrade shop.
  • Cycle: Generally, you'll start to do cycles of resets every X amount of time. These cycles tend to be more or less the same length and this is where the games become repetitive again.
Phases:
  • Grind phase: You are asked to click something repeatedly, while a counter goes up and gradually, more game is revealed
  • Idle phase: You are not clicking very much anymore, instead you are buying factories and factory upgrades, eventually resetting the game and starting over a few times
  • Cycle phase: Grind phase takes seconds, buying all of the available factories takes minutes. None of these things matter much anymore, the real game has become deciding what to buy and how to optimize the reset currency upgrades
Misconceptions:
I've seen a lot of players quit in the grind phase. They think these games are about clicking, they are not. In fact, in most games, you stop clicking manually after a few hours and then never again.
Then there's the players that quit in the idle phase, they think the game is one big Skinner Box of ever-unlocking features. A new achievement every minute, but no thinking involved, you are being rewarded for staring at the screen and clicking the reward button every so often. The point is, this is a one time thing that lasts a few days or weeks, before the game settles into the cycle phase, which is for serious players, the actual start of the game.

Time as a currency
So what is the real game here? Where does game design come in? Well, at a core, the real currency here is time. If I play the game and unlock the first factory, I can now shut off the game and after a certain amount of time, when I return to the game, I will have completed it (completed as in reached the final achievement or reaching a high score that's in the same league as top players). Any strategy I use to reduce that time is when I'm actually playing the game. The games are usually exponential at every turn, so time to complete the game with just the first factory is measured in multiples of time taken from big bang to heat death of the universe (no hyperbole). If I get stuck in the idle phase (I'm trying to beat the game by repeatedly upgrading factories), we're probably down to decades. Once you reach the cycle phase, you are doing everything you can to reduce time in an optimal fashion. Completely optimal play will have you complete the final achievement in a few months, even slightly sub-optimal play adds weeks onto that. When players reach that final end game where everything slows down to a final crawl, developers usually release a new update with new material.


I'll go over and review Clicker Heroes specifically in my next post. I'm interested to hear which incremental games you have played, for how long and whether or not there's aspects to them that aren't Skinner Box (meaning, you have a strategy and aren't just idly clicking rewards every so often).
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

One of the earliest games to improve upon Cookie Clicker is Clicker Heroes. If Cookie Clicker is Quake, Clicker Heroes is Half-life. It adds a bunch of quality of life improvements, the game is more complex, deeper, etc. Let's take a look at phases in Clicker Heroes. For those that want to give the game a try, this review will provide a good look at what's possible and what to expect. Be warned though, if you like figuring out things, this post WILL be full of spoilers, including strategy spoilers.

Opening Game
Opening game is defined as the period from start until you can reliably get past zone 150. This is when you near the end of the Idle Phase and start cycling. The game starts with the stereotypical click and unlock. You unlock heroes (factories) that click for you and upgrade these heroes. The final hero you get is called Frostleaf and once you get it up to level 75 more or less, you will have reached zone 100 in the game. There is another hero that appears, but it's so expensive, you can't imagine ever buying it. A bit earlier, you unlocked a hero special that lets you reset the game, but it seems daft to do that. At zone 100, you are offered a Hero Soul (+10% damage), which is this game's reset currency. One Hero Soul (HS) seems meager to restart the game over, so you keep going. When Frostleaf is between level 100 and 125, things crawl to a halt. The boss at zone 140 is famous for being impossible to beat, unless you grind for a few days (more than the time it took you to reach him). Begrudgingly you reset the game with a few HS (you can trade in hero levels for hero souls too, so you first upgrade ALL of your heroes as much as possible, which gives you about 14 extra HS) and redo the whole thing over again. At reaching zone 140, you are once again stuck, but after a few resets, you are able to get past it. At this point, it's also possible to reach zone 140 in an hour or so. With a few dozen hero souls (50+), you are now looking the reset upgrade store (ancients), to see if you can improve a bit. You have reached early game, the actual start of the game.

Early Game
Early game is all about cycling and getting Hero Souls to incrementally increase your highest zone and get a few achievements. Achievements also add on even more damage (a system I like, having achievements affect the game). You assume the next step is to get to a point where you're able to buy that next hero that is taunting you, Dread Knight. Unfortunately, you still don't seem to get even near the cost of buying him. This is where the game design starts to shine, you are being locked out of progress every step of the way and you need to find ways to get around that. The game stopped offering you Skinner Boxes a while back and this is where a lot of players quit. This is also where the mathematics part of the game start. It's becoming clear that everything is exponential, so you need to find strategies that don't just add a few percentages here and there, but that multiply damage you are doing significantly. If you level up a hero to level 900 (the first one to get there is probably Treebeast, your very first hero), you suddenly notice that getting him to level 1000 will multiply his damage by 10. Suddenly, he is outclassing Frostleaf, which is at that point your hardest hitting hero by a long shot. You realize that from this point onward, heroes below level 1000 are useless. With your new found knowledge, you start cycling again, this time focusing on getting heroes to level 1000. You also realize that you can pool all of your gilds (a hero damage booster you get every so often) onto one hero and push that hero past level 1000 to get a super heavy hard hitter. Progress kicks in gear again and suddenly you are progressing massively. Around zone 1200+ or so, you need another boost and are now starting to ogle the heroes after Frostleaf. You reached Mid-Game.

Mid Game
Mid game is that nebulous period that can take a few weeks or even months, where you just cycle and cycle and cycle, getting bigger and bigger numbers, until you can move gilds onto Frostleaf+ heroes. At this point, you are either doing hard math, or using a calculator. You read every post on reddit and you're trying to get to zone 3000. At a certain point, the game just becomes too slow to progress and you start using an auto-clicker if you aren't yet. You just reached the end game. You have basically beat the game and the rest is just trying to beat scores people post on the reddit. You have all ancients, all heroes (yes, there's new heroes and specials way up into mid game, I personally haven't seen all the heroes yet), best relics, you're in a clan doing raids, etc. All that's left to do is those final achievements, that might take a few months (1000 relics?? Hundreds of mercenaries??).

Is it fun?
Sure, most of the game is fun. There's a ton of cool design stuff, like the game crawling to a stop, requiring you to find solutions. Certain incremental games don't do that, having a more linear path to success. I think that turning the Skinner Boxes off for a while, even though it costs you players, makes for a better game. Putting in a mechanic that makes you revisit earlier heroes by pushing them to level 1000 makes everything fresh again for a while. There's content lasting you for months and the trick is that while similar, at certain points, the game slightly twists, causing you to re-evaluate.

The bad
The bad thing is that first off, the game still relies on Skinner Boxes far too much. You sit there and wait for things to click on, that make numbers bigger, for 90% of the time. The other 10% is spent strategizing and to make sure you stick around for the 10%, the 90% is full with growing numbers, clickable candy, achievements, cute graphics, etc.
Secondly, the fun part of the game is the transition from early game to mid game. There's this small sliver of the game where you start to realize how deep and complex it is, before it becomes so complex you are almost forced to look up a calculator online to figure it out. Problem is, once you start using a calculator, you aren't playing anymore, you just replaced the 10% of strategy with copy-pasting. There's no incentive to really figure out your own strategies, as the numbers game isn't very obvious. Most of the current UI, where a lot of numbers are shown, was coerced out of the devs by the players, but it's not an integral part of the game, encouraging people to figure out strategy.


So how could this type of game be improved? Is there similar games that I haven't seen yet, that fare better? I enjoy the new design space immensely, but so far, most games are more of the same as far as I can tell. I think more of the game should revolve around player skill or at the very least, encourage the player to use his head. I enjoyed Candy Box immensely and I enjoy that there's an entire genre popping up that caters to that itch, but unless it moves away from the very pitfalls that Cow Clicker was intended to parody, I don't see myself really enjoying these games.
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

The elephant in the room: clicking
The big elephant in the room is if we really have to base the games around initially clicking. It doesn't make any sense really. Candy Box didn't have any clicking, but just like Cow Clicker it was based around a joke. In Candy Box, the joke is that you're trying to eat as much candy as possible, but if you leave the game alone, suddenly it evolves into a fun management game. The joke in Cow Clicker is that it's a parody of Farmville and its ilk. The joke in Cookie Clicker was taken from these two games and combined to form what we now know as incremental games. So far, I get it, it's funny. What happens next is moronic though, with all kinds of games thinking that part of what makes those games great is the initial clicking joke. It's worn out now and I hope the genre can move away from the initial clicking thing ASAP.
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
jorgebonafe
Posts: 2714
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:22 am
Location: Brasil

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by jorgebonafe »

You have condemned me. I hate you.
Better Than Wolves was borne of anal sex. True Story.
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

jorgebonafe wrote:You have condemned me. I hate you.
Always be careful with these games that rely on a lot of Skinner Boxes, they are addictive as all hell :)
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
Ethinolicbob
Posts: 460
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:03 pm

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Ethinolicbob »

Well this thread has all the potential to get me stuck in more of these :D
I recently picked up cookie clicker again since they announced version 2. Not too much different from version 1 except they have prestige and heavenly chips on reset. Prestige is for adding %clicks/sec on next reset. Heavenly chips are spent on a talent tree for upgrades such as keeping the clicking going after the browser is closed for a short time and whatnot.

The most enjoyable one that I have played recently is Blacksmith Lab. I like that the grind and idle can work side-by-side as there is a lot of things the player can do (if wanted) even when the game is largely at an idle pace. This is done by having random events take place that can vastly alter the balance of the game to your advantage if you capitalise on it.

I remember enjoying Clicker Heroes back in the day. Has it undergone any changes over the years?
jakerman999
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:58 pm

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by jakerman999 »

Although filled with often difficult to navigate in-jokes, Sand Castle Builder is the deepest of incremental games I know of. And I've sunk many weeks into Cookie Clicker, derivative Clicker, Swarm Simulator, and a few others whose names I don't recall.


I'd also like to bring to the table a somewhat related genre: Idle games. My favourite of such being the great time sink Anti-Idle.
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

Ethinolicbob wrote:I remember enjoying Clicker Heroes back in the day. Has it undergone any changes over the years?
It changes constantly really. A few months back, the highest zone players reached was like 4000, now players are at 5500 I think? There's some heroes in the game that I haven't even seen, playing on and off for a year. So yeah, if it's been longer than 3 months since you've played, it's probably a completely different game now.
jakerman999 wrote:Although filled with often difficult to navigate in-jokes, Sand Castle Builder is the deepest of incremental games I know of. And I've sunk many weeks into Cookie Clicker, derivative Clicker, Swarm Simulator, and a few others whose names I don't recall.


I'd also like to bring to the table a somewhat related genre: Idle games. My favourite of such being the great time sink Anti-Idle.
Thanks, I'll have a look at them :)

I thought Idle Game is just a synonym for Incremental Game (or Clicker Game, though I hate that name for obvious reasons)?
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
gaga654
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:36 pm

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by gaga654 »

I would call idle games the precursor to incremental games, or perhaps a superset of them. A Quest for Idle, released on Kongregate in 2009, was the first popular idle game and its popularity caused an influx of people making idle games to emulate it. These idle games usually involved little to no interaction whatsoever except for the occasional upgrade to buy, which was still just a linear progression. The game was just watching numbers go up. Anti-Idle was created a few months later as a response to the idle game popularity. While still an idle game, it had a lot of interaction - you could buy cosmetic costumes and pets, and unlock different features/minigames to help you advance and give you things to actually do in the game.

It's changed a lot since then (as far as I know it's still being updated today), but I think Anti-Idle was one of the first things close to an incremental game like cookie clicker and clicker heroes. Anti-Idle even gave you the ability to ascend, restarting you at level 1 with some bonuses the next time through. Cookie clicker takes the idea of Anti-Idle and distills it a few key elements: rather than buying complicated new features that allow you to spend time playing the game and advancing faster, you just buy factories that do that directly.
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

Interesting stuff, I didn't know that! And yeah, the idle game superset thing totally makes sense now. I don't like the term "clicker games", because that's not what they are about and I honestly wish the part where you click a lot would just die from the genre.
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
Wafflewaffle
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:17 pm
Location: Carnaval land

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Wafflewaffle »

Funny that the same basics that make clicker games so addictive is part of the reason why RPG "elements" show up in nearly every modern genre. Progress bars, lvl ups, unlocks and geometric progression on nearly every numeric indicator of progress (life, dmg, exp). Its addicting to see number get bigger and bigger, even if they dont mean shit.

I actually lost quite a lot of days to Clicker heroes. I regret nothing.
Oh great, now nothing can stop the inbred train

Paradox Interactive:
CHOO CHOO!
User avatar
Uristqwerty
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:51 pm

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Uristqwerty »

The earliest idle game I know would be progress quest, which appears to have been around since 2002 and has absolutely no meaningful user input after character creation. There seems to be a scale from idle but barely incremental through incremental with almost no idle mechanics, where most recent games fall somewhere towards the centre.

There's a reddit community (named, rather straightforwardly, incremental_games) which gets an odd mix of gameplay discussions, development discussions, prototypes, users asking for game recommendations, and self-promotion from some developers with profit models. Not especially great, as it is reddit after all, but from time to time there have been some interesting discussions.

I have seen Factorio compared to an incremental game, though it's far more active than Anti-Idle and other relatively-active explicitly-incremental games.
User avatar
DiamondArms
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:04 am

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by DiamondArms »

I beat zone 140 with lv75 frostleaf and no resets. Am I strange?
Spoiler
Show
Image
Image
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

DiamondArms wrote:I beat zone 140 with lv75 frostleaf and no resets. Am I strange?
No, but you're clicking 45 times a second, so I assume you had a little help from an auto clicker :).

Most people don't bother really. Auto clickers get progressively more useless as the game goes on, until the end game, when they start becoming useful again.

Also, you've done 7 dark rituals, so I assume you know how those work and that you can push past a few zones using it.

Congrats on beating 140 though, now on to zone 1000! :)
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
DiamondArms
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:04 am

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by DiamondArms »

heh. okay then. good to know I haven't overly gamed the system to broken levels.
Nearly have treebeast at lv1000, and he's got 2 gilds on him from beating some bosses. Frostleaf still does most of the damage though.
Currently just past zone 150. energize+superclicks+critclicks makes a lot of difference at 20-30 clicks/sec. I've yet to hit the stage where 20clicks/sec autoclicker+skills doesn't make a difference. 45 clicks/sec really lags the thing though.
Looks like Ascension won't happen for a while.

Biggest Disappointment: Cid can't be gilded. I like breaking bosses with clicking.
User avatar
jstu9
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:19 pm

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by jstu9 »

I hate these kind of games.

So, why am I playing this? I've ascended once now, about Lvl 75 now. The 2nd through time is definitely faster but i have now hit that zone where I just check on it every few hours to progress.

It reminds me of those dumb facebook games that I would sometimes play endlessly. Click on something, wait x minutes or hours, click again, you progress, yay. I hate that model. Yet I still have played them.

It's the same reason I really dislike rpg's where you click and after minutes or sometimes hours, your __ skill has gone up one point. Woo! I hate it but I have played them. One of the reasons I stopped playing Skyrim. And Runescape, and why I will never play WoW.

Then of course the realization hits that pretty much all games are like this. You click, time passes, you click some more, you progress and then eventually you have won the game. Some have more gameplay, some have more strategy, some have better graphics.... but can't every game be distilled into this kind of model?
User avatar
DiamondArms
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:04 am

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by DiamondArms »

Spoiler
Show
This might help you.
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

DiamondArms: you probably should ascend already :p. You're not supposed to go on until you hit an absolute brick wall. What you're doing is called a deep run and it's waaaaay slower than just ascending. First run, ascending once you have 15 hero souls is about right.
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
DiamondArms
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:04 am

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by DiamondArms »

Still accumulating levels then. My HS counter for this ascension is only at 14.

Status update: Treebeast is at 1025, and Ivan is 975. I'm a sad existence that is perfect for skinnerboxing. Also, nearly cleared zone 160. Which I probably will before ascending.

Now that I know what a deep run is, I can safely say this isn't my first time doing one. Did the same on Kingdom of Loathing before. I suspect I actually enjoy deep runs, just to see how much I can bruteforce my way in before resetting as the designers intended.
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

DiamondArms wrote:Still accumulating levels then. My HS counter for this ascension is only at 14.

Status update: Treebeast is at 1025, and Ivan is 975. I'm a sad existence that is perfect for skinnerboxing. Also, nearly cleared zone 160. Which I probably will before ascending.

Now that I know what a deep run is, I can safely say this isn't my first time doing one. Did the same on Kingdom of Loathing before. I suspect I actually enjoy deep runs, just to see how much I can bruteforce my way in before resetting as the designers intended.
In the ruby shop, you can buy quick ascensions. Aside from the one time damage doubler, quick ascensions are always the best option (using rubies on raids is even better though). The fun thing is, with quick ascensions, you can potentially deep run forever. It's awfully unoptimized, as a quick ascension will give you the equivalent of one cycle of souls, but a cycle only lasts 30 minutes, while 50 rubies takes you way longer to get (a full day or more).

So yeah, once you can get cycles down to 30 minutes (meaning, you can instakill for 30 minutes on end), you will get souls way faster than having to save up 50 rubies and deep running. Quick ascensions are based on highest zone ever, so sometimes I will do a deep run for fun, pushing 800 levels past my optimal zone, just to raise the highest zone ever and thus get better payouts for my quick ascensions. Mercenary payout is also based on HZE I think, as well as relic ooze spawns (which is a bad thing, as it means you might not get a relic ooze).

My current HZE is 1800 I think? I'm a very casual player :)
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
Uristqwerty
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:51 pm

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Uristqwerty »

I saw a remark that one major difference between most incremental games and facebook timewasters is that incremental games tend not to stop progressing when left alone (especially if they support some type of offline progression), they just stop accelerating. Rather than hitting some arbitrary energy cap if you don't log in to poke chickens, wasting everything you could have earned, your income just remains merely linear, whereas if you had logged in daily and reinvested, you could have had a geometric or even exponential increase.

Another common attractive feature is discovering new mechanics as you progress that completely rebalance what is the optimal (or even what is merely effective) way to play, sometimes to the point that seeing how the mechanics change throughout the overall stages of a game might be the only reason some players continue.
User avatar
DiamondArms
Posts: 486
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:04 am

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by DiamondArms »

Just finished zone 160 and finally caved. Ascension!
Mostly because I wanted to try out mercenaries.
Have to admit things are a lot faster now. Still not anywhere close to my previous level of progress though.
User avatar
Gilberreke
Posts: 4486
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:12 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by Gilberreke »

Uristqwerty wrote:I saw a remark that one major difference between most incremental games and facebook timewasters is that incremental games tend not to stop progressing when left alone (especially if they support some type of offline progression), they just stop accelerating. Rather than hitting some arbitrary energy cap if you don't log in to poke chickens, wasting everything you could have earned, your income just remains merely linear, whereas if you had logged in daily and reinvested, you could have had a geometric or even exponential increase.

Another common attractive feature is discovering new mechanics as you progress that completely rebalance what is the optimal (or even what is merely effective) way to play, sometimes to the point that seeing how the mechanics change throughout the overall stages of a game might be the only reason some players continue.
Very insightful! In that case, part of the core gameplay is how often the mechanics change on you and how the player reacts to that. It seems to happen on several levels too. The problem with games such as Cookie Cutter and Clicker Heroes is that the mechanics are too mathematical and a bunch of small optimizations combine to form a huge difference. There need to be more tactical and strategical decisions, so the game is geared towards the specialties of the human brain, instead of the specialties of a computer.

Small optimization problems, such as the early game in BTW, where you're deciding on exactly how much trees to cut, for how many tools, etc, are fine, but making the whole game like that is tedious and requires you to fill it out with skinner boxes to keep the player going.


I just realized that BTW is an incremental game too, in a way. Automation is like factories you build yourself and the game mechanics shift on you as you progress through ages. There's no real form of reset, so no cycling, but most other aspects are there. I wonder what reset would look like in BTW? I guess the closest thing is when you are forced to make a second base when going for the villager progression. Maybe a resource that is essential and needs to be automated on-site would force the player to keep making new bases?
Come join us at Vioki's Discord! discord.gg/fhMK5kx
User avatar
logorouge
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:06 pm

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by logorouge »

Well, this thread convinced me to try Clicker Heroes earlier today. I was under the impression that all those games were heavily focused on spam-clicking with only minor passive damages for when you would let the game open for auto-farming purposes hours on end. Pleasant surprise to learn that it's not the case at all. I'm just getting started and already clicking has taken a backseat. Also, reopening the game after a short break to be greeted by a notification saying "Your heroes farmed 120 billions gold for you" or something like that, is just hilarious.

Analyzing numbers and optimizing is definitely something I enjoy. So thanks for taking the time to explain all this, Gil.
Azdoine may have wrote:Well, we are harvesting souls [...] Sure, they get trapped in a piece of metal, but at least they get to see the world.
User avatar
thekyz
Posts: 266
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Rennes, France

Re: Game Design - Incremental Games

Post by thekyz »

I hate you Gil, i'm at my third ascension and I love this game now :O
Post Reply