Daredevil TV series (spoilers)

[FlowerChild]

So, I have an almost complete revulsion to all things superhero these days. Just can't take it anymore. While I used to gobble the stuff up back in the era of Michael Keaton as Batman, I reached my saturation point awhile ago. Some point around the first of the Iron Man movies (that character used to be a favorite of mine), I basically had a "You know...I think I'm done with this whole thing..." moment and haven't really looked back since.

Have only seen the first Spider Man movie. Don't even know how many Iron Man ones there are now. Had zero interest in the Avengers or Xmen films. Even The Watchmen barely got a rise out of me.

I will admit though, I was drawn in by Netflix's recent Daredevil series, because Netflix makes some of my favorite series (House of Cards, Orange is the New Black), because Daredevil was one of my favorite superheroes when I was younger (I think I always preferred the more mundane heroes, even when I was a kid), and because some of the stuff I was seeing on it portrayed it as rather adult.

And I will also admit: I was enjoying the heck out of it, right up until the last episode, despite the occasional cheese-fest inherent in some of the characters.

But seriously: wtf was up with that costume? The last few minutes essentially blew the whole thing out of the water for me, and left me with a very negative impression of it despite having really enjoyed the rest.

Eye holes with black eyeshadow for a blind man? Rigid and obviously awkward body armor for an acrobat? Goof ball visual design?

Ok, so the whole series I was basically asking myself how the heck they were going to redo his costume to not look like a super-cheesy brightly colored horned spandex nightmare, but man...did they ever blow my expectations out of the water with that thing. Even with the way the thing was shot, it was like the final scenes were seriously rushed as if they realized too late "ok...this thing looks terrible, so let's show it as little as possible" :)

Anyways, just one of my periodic rants about when I see something so bad that I need to utter a public "wtf?" ;)

[Equitis1024]

But seriously: wtf was up with that costume? The last few minutes essentially blew the whole thing out of the water for me, and left me with a very negative impression of it despite having really enjoyed the rest.

Oh man, I saw this series a couple days ago and had the exact same reaction. Costume design is something I typically don't pay attention to, but this was so glaringly out of place that it took me right out of the show. Left a real sour taste in my mouth right at the end. What were they thinking??

[FlowerChild]

Oh man, I saw this series a couple days ago and had the exact same reaction. Costume design is something I typically don't pay attention to, but this was so glaringly out of place that it took me right out of the show. Left a real sour taste in my mouth right at the end. What were they thinking??

Well, at least I feel somewhat vindicated in having someone share that opinion :)

And yeah, I'm the same way in terms of not paying much attention to costume design, but this was so glaringly bad that I couldn't help but focus on it.

It even made the whole dramatic finale with Kingpin (who I thought was played excellently) entirely comical as I kept thinking "how can he possibly be taking a guy in that suit seriously?". It was like Luke decided to wear a tutu to his climactic battle with Vader or something :P

Really should have just left him in his black getup IMO. I get the impression that maybe the costume was made for the upcoming Avengers movie (I read somewhere that this series is supposed to be a prequel for that, so that people have some idea who Daredevil is before seeing the film), and it was a condition for the series to give the suit a cameo at the end.

So yeah, maybe the creators of the series had nothing to do with that bit, and the costume itself really didn't wind up suiting the whole dark vibe of the series in the least, and was intended more for a flashy superhero mash-up where Daredevil is only a minor secondary character while the Incredible Hulk and Iron Man are prancing about leveling cities.

Anyways, I think this covers my sensation walking away from the last episode of the series fairly well:

[Wafflewaffle]

The black suit was so cool thought! Even the fight choreography up until the very last fight against the Kingpin was spot on. I am convinced they shot the last episodes before anything else in the series as a proof of concept and just kept it later in development to cut costs or something.

The way they introduced the mini bosses to be defeated before reaching the the big boss was really cool but felt rushed by the end of the series. Heck Daredevil even level up through the series, unlocking new weapons and armor as he meets new companions to help him out. See what im getting at? These are very interesting gaming tropes for story progression that were used to great effect by the series.

In regards to the characters and the way they are portrayed compared to the their comics counterparts, i would say they were pretty spot on, but i doubt they will introduce them into the Avengers movie. Disney has a very particular way they want their blockbusters to feel and Daredevil is mature, bloody and even more "daring" in ways that just dont fit the rest of the universe so well. It will however make part of this secondary tier of crime fighters called the Defenders in which i believe Marvel will have more freedom to go into darker places and more interesting plots then just "defeat big bad aliens with lots of explosions ".
.

[Larmantine]

Didn't want to make a separate thread, so Im gonna ask here: can you recommend me a new show? The trailers for House of Cards, Orange is the new black, Orphan Black didn't seem that intriguing for me. Perhaps you can back them up somehow. I'm currently watching Game of Thrones and Salem. I recently gave up on Sons of Anarchy, 'twas watchable, but didn't really feel a strong urge to continue on. Better Call Saul had the same effect.

[FlowerChild]

It will however make part of this secondary tier of crime fighters called the Defenders in which i believe Marvel will have more freedom to go into darker places and more interesting plots then just "defeat big bad aliens with lots of explosions ".
.

You're absolutely right, it was the Defenders, not the Avengers.

That's how far I've fallen out of the superhero thing: I'm even getting the various groups confused ;)

While looking that up, I also saw that Daredevil is going to have a second season. I honestly don't know if I can watch it unless they change that costume and/or portray that whole bit as some nightmarish dream that he awakes screaming from after being hit by a fashion designer's car :P

Didn't want to make a separate thread, so Im gonna ask here: can you recommend me a new show? The trailers for House of Cards, Orange is the new black, Orphan Black didn't seem that intriguing for me. Perhaps you can back them up somehow. I'm currently watching Game of Thrones and Salem. I recently gave up on Sons of Anarchy, 'twas watchable, but didn't really feel a strong urge to continue on. Better Call Saul had the same effect.

Let's see...I love Black Sails. That's some seriously nasty adult pirate action going on there complete with bloody dismemberments and full frontal nudity.

Got one hell of a theme song too:



I actually gave up on Salem this year as the accumulated cheese added up to the point where I turned off ep 1 of season 2 halfway through :)

Both House of Cards and Orange Is The New Black are fairly serious dramas (Orange has a touch of humor thrown in), so if that's not your thing, it's not your thing.

House of Cards revolves around Kevin Spacey doing a brilliant job of playing a thoroughly corrupt congressman as he slowly manipulates the system to become president.

IMO, it's a very similar show to Boss, which was also brilliant, but unfortunately they pulled the rug out from under Kelsey Grammar and cancelled that one, as I thought that was an even more nasty look at corrupt politics (or just the nature of power in general IMO), but I suspect because it was dealing with a mayor rather than a president, it wasn't sexy enough to gain mass popularity.

I find Orange is the New Black rather interesting as it revolves around what most people would consider a "normal" woman that gets thrown into the prison system due to the errors of her youth. Far easier to relate to than something like Oz and puts a very human spin on people that wind up on the wrong end of the justice system.

Oh, and if you're up for a laugh, I've been finding Silicon Valley hysterical. Might help if you've ever been in the software industry, but I've had some serious lol moments with that one.

[Wafflewaffle]

You're absolutely right, it was the Defenders, not the Avengers.

That's how far I've fallen out of the superhero thing: I'm even getting the various groups confused ;)

Well to be honest you really need a guide book nowadays to figure out who is who and what universes are not part of other universers. And it keeps getting weirder and weirder as Disney buys more properties and other studios keep rebooting their franchises.

Didn't want to make a separate thread, so Im gonna ask here: can you recommend me a new show? The trailers for House of Cards, Orange is the new black, Orphan Black didn't seem that intriguing for me. Perhaps you can back them up somehow. I'm currently watching Game of Thrones and Salem. I recently gave up on Sons of Anarchy, 'twas watchable, but didn't really feel a strong urge to continue on. Better Call Saul had the same effect.

Man i cant recommend Fargo enough to anyone that ask for something different. I find it amazing that so few people have even heard of it. Also take a look at True Detective if not for the compelling story, for Alexandra Daddario sex scene. Both are pretty self contained one season stories so theres not all that catch up to do.

[FlowerChild]

Man i cant recommend Fargo enough to anyone that ask for something different. I find it amazing that so few people have even heard of it.

Is that really the case? When I first heard of it I was worried they wouldn't do the film justice, as that one was a total classic. They've done a great job of it though.

If you haven't seen the movie it's based on it's well worth digging up. The story is quite different, so you won't be spoiling anything.

Also take a look at True Detective

Word on that one. I'm a fan of pretty much anything with Woody in it, and that show is pure class.

If you're into that kind of dark detective story, I'd also recommend "The Killing". With the two you mention above, I think you'd like it, but admittedly I haven't finished watching the second season yet, as it's so dark that I was beginning to find it seriously depressing :)

[Larmantine]

I checked out a couple of videos from Black Sails and it piqued my interest. Although, I must admit, that I lol'd inside a bit when I saw the name Micheal Bay in the trailer. Still gonna take a look.

About Salem, man I just saw episode 6 of it, and I can solemnly say that season two is much better than season one, IMHO. Sure, there are still boring/underproduced bits to it, like Mercy or John Alden's new less significant place in the series, after episode one, he hasn't done jack shit. Everything he does is essentially the same in every episode of this season. If I watched season one just to look at something when having a meal, in season two I have been anticipating every episode (although I agree that ep1 was a bit of a letdown).

Heard some good things about True Detective as well, might take a look later.

About House of Cards, my friend said it was great as well, but here's the thing, and I might be a shallow person just for saying this - I can't take Kevin Spacey seriously anymore, after I saw him on CoD, basically, thanks to this guy (exosuits! jetpacks!):

Spoiler

Show

To be frank, not sure if I should start watching anything anytime soon, I really need to wrap up my bachelor paper.

[DaveYanakov]

I'm digging the concept of Black Sails but it didn't really grab me and since I'm primarily watching television while on a treadmill at the gym, it's not really an option in any case. Maybe I'm just burned out on the concept of political drama set in anarchistic society but the four episodes I saw of it seem like too much buildup to be worth any conceivable payoff. Damned good theme music though.

As far as the Daredevil costume goes, they did say it was half finished so it's possible for them to do a redesign before the season 2 dump. It didn't seem all that rigid and I can kind of forgive eye holes as a distraction tactic since a hero that doesn't need to see to fight would narrow the pool of potential secret identities right quick. I will admit that I got flashbacks to Mantis hitting me right through my suspended disbelief.

[FlowerChild]

I'm digging the concept of Black Sails but it didn't really grab me and since I'm primarily watching television while on a treadmill at the gym, it's not really an option in any case. Maybe I'm just burned out on the concept of political drama set in anarchistic society but the four episodes I saw of it seem like too much buildup to be worth any conceivable payoff. Damned good theme music though.

Oh, believe me man, it goes somewhere. I think the first time you see a broadside open up and rake a ship with a crew-level point of view, you'll utter the same "holy shit!" that I did, and instantly want to forget everything else you ever saw revolving around 18th century naval warfare ;)

[DaveYanakov]

I have seen some really excellent depictions of this. I am now solidly intrigued.

[FlowerChild]

I have seen some really excellent depictions of this. I am now solidly intrigued.

I think the best I had seen previously in terms of depicting that kind of thing was Master & Commander (as a fan of the books I was disappointed in the movie overall though). This quite literally blows that out of the water (pun intended) ;)

[E.B. Farnham]

I have to agree with you on Daredevil. I'm not really that big of a super hero comic reader. I mostly read 2000 AD and such back in the day and am not that familiar with the Marvel/DC universes. Well beyond the obvious film representations (and yup the Tim Burton Batman will always be my favourite, I remember seeing it when it hit the cinemas many a year ago. Mmmm nostalgia).

I had little knowledge of the Daredevil lore. I knew the basics of the characters but that was about it and to be honest I'm not a fan of the recent Marvel movie spam. I just think they have bad narrative, characterisation and the cinematography is basic and lacking in artistic quality but then again I'm a bitter and sarcastic bastard so take that into account. Still though I was surprised by Daredevil, I love Kingpin, excellent choice of actor and a well written character. The darker style appeals muchly.

Then that suit appeared. I knew it would though I'd of rathered they stuck to the utilitarian look but I realise the suit is iconic and that jazz but damn it looked awful. Very much a what the fuck moment. Hopefully they'll address that for the second season as it kind of goes against the tone of the show in a way that's very jarring.

Now Black Sails though I can't recommend enough. That moment when the Spanish Galleon unleashes all hell. So nicely done, the silence punctuated by clacking of gun-ports opening. The slight muting of the background sound. The realisation of the horror to come. It was a thing of beauty.

I enjoyed Master and Commander as well, though I haven't read any of Patrick O' Brian's novels. Though I'm pretty sure I have at least one of the them around here somewhere. Must get around to reading them once I get back my urge to read again.

Also just finished watching the first series of Manhattan. I've no idea how much of it is history and how much of it is drama but it's an interesting take on the construction of the first atomic bombs which I enjoyed. Not the greatest thing ever but entertaining enough to keep me watching till the end of the season.

Anywho I'll disappear to lurking again.

[FlowerChild]

I enjoyed Master and Commander as well, though I haven't read any of Patrick O' Brian's novels. Though I'm pretty sure I have at least one of the them around here somewhere. Must get around to reading them once I get back my urge to read again.

The one thing that really stands out between the books and movie, is that the characters are more highly flawed, and far less Hollywood, which makes them all the more interesting.

The captain for example is a chronic womanizer with mistresses in each port, and his various indiscretions (as well as rather dodgy choice of political allegiances, and him being terrible with money) keep interfering with his career advancement. He's basically a brilliant officer, but a complete boob when it comes to the rest of his life. The doctor is an opiate (laudanum) addict, which I know isn't even vaguely touched on or implied in the movie, and he's also a rather dodgy spy who is only involved with the navy in the first place as it gives him cover to move from port to port (can't remember for certain, as it's a long time since I've seen the movie, but I don't think that's touched on either). A lot of his goofiness is actually an act so that he comes across as harmless, but he's actually quite a dangerous, and highly intelligent, individual.

It may sound trite the way I'm writing it up above, but really doesn't come across that way in the books. Suffice it to say the characters show much more depth than in the film.

[E.B. Farnham]

The one thing that really stands out between the books and movie, is that the characters are more highly flawed, and far less Hollywood, which makes them all the more interesting.

Yeah the art of writing a properly flawed character has been lost to some extent. So many flawed characters are just flawed so they can be "made better" through some kind of redemption arc. Which there's nothing wrong with if it's done well but if it's not....

I must admit I like the sound of Aubrey. Useless with money and politics, indiscreet and a hound for the ladies. Now there's someone I can identify with. Also it's nice to see someone write a functional addict for a change. I had a feeling there was more to the Doctors character. He seemed to be a little too intelligent and aware to be so outwardly meek.

As to it sounding trite, well all good stories can be both terrible or great. All depends on how it's written. There's really no bad ideas in narrative only bad application and presentation of those ideas. Even a stupid premise can make a great story if done right, subjective as right can be.

Edit. Hah went book searching, can't find Master and Commander but I did find a copy of Hammers Slammers. I moved home recently and so have returned to all the boxes of guff I left behind. I'd sort it but I think the nostalgia overload might kill me. I haven't seen most of this stuff in decades.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah the art of writing a properly flawed character has been lost to some extent. So many flawed characters are just flawed so they can be "made better" through some kind of redemption arc.

Yeah, I don't get the impression that ever happens in that series of books. I don't think I ever read all of them (maybe a dozen or so though, and I keep meaning to get back to them), and the flaws remained largely intact throughout causing no end of trouble. There's some minor (and often times fleeting) redemption moments that occur over the course of it (like I think at some point Aubrey winds up so badly off that he ends up captaining a privateer, but eventually manages to get reinstated into the navy), but it it winds up feeling very human, and all the more real for it.

Sorry for any spoilers inherent in the above, but it's not anything that you wouldn't be able to figure out from the titles of the books in the series :)

But yeah, in terms of historical fiction (which I've read quite a bit of), O'Brian is definitely up there amongst my favorites. I remember being quite saddened by it when he passed away, as his writing definitely puts more juvenile works like the Hornblower series to shame.

I guess that's why the movie got under my skin some, as it's the flawed characters (well...and the historical accuracy: the guy's attention to detail is incredible) that largely set O'Brian's works apart, and that's largely what they white-washed for the film.

[E.B. Farnham]

Yeah a good character is as much at odds with themselves and their own nature as they are with whatever the narrative set them against. A good character should act outwardly and inwardly. Too many characters these days are too certain of they're own actions. Which again depending on the type of story can be fine but it's shallow and often plays more to fantasy than reality. Give me a character that doubts themselves and their actions, who fucks up and fails as well as succeeds. One who does the right things for the wrong reasons and the wrong things for the right reasons. Sometimes I think some writers forget that how a person acts isn't how they think. There's two worlds to every character, what they show and what they think. There's great value in playing those aspects off each other. Makes them more human I'd say. Actually kind of why I like Kingpin in Daredevil.

Yeah also a sucker for details. If an author makes the effort to research his topics it shows. Nothing destroys my immersion quicker than reading something and thinking that's not how that works, or what that's called. Again subject to genre and style of course but if you're going for realism then you have to do the research.

Crap, birds are singing and I see the first rays of morning light peaking through the blackout curtains. Time for bed. Will bitch more tomorrow about bad writing while praising good characterization.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah also a sucker for details. If an author makes the effort to research his topics it shows. Nothing destroys my immersion quicker than reading something and thinking that's not how that works, or what that's called. Again subject to genre and style of course but if you're going for realism then you have to do the research.

Yeah...O'Brian's definitely your man. Even a lot of his small naval engagements are actual historical battles that he's transplanted his characters into. I remember thinking a couple of times "man, there's no way that actually happened" on some of the more fantastical events, only to find out with a bit of research that they really had :)